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the_scotsman wrote: It is rumored that we do not, and the hammer is unchanged in price at least. The only points decrease for a HTH is the 4-point body decrease on vets, sadly.
My big issue with the HTH has always been: Why does it not get the Onager Dunecrawler's 3 damage minimum? Why does a "heavy" thunder hammer not do at LEAST as much damage as a regular thunder hammer?
My issue is also how it can't be given to the Black Shield in a kill team because that's the perfect guy to carry it - 3 attacks and heroic intervention.
the_scotsman wrote: It is rumored that we do not, and the hammer is unchanged in price at least. The only points decrease for a HTH is the 4-point body decrease on vets, sadly.
My big issue with the HTH has always been: Why does it not get the Onager Dunecrawler's 3 damage minimum? Why does a "heavy" thunder hammer not do at LEAST as much damage as a regular thunder hammer?
My issue is also how it can't be given to the Black Shield in a kill team because that's the perfect guy to carry it - 3 attacks and heroic intervention.
Yeah, they very clearly made it so it could only be given to 2A models - Vanvet sarge can't have one, DW vet sarge or blackshield can't have one.
It's a shame for that reason - regular TH outperforms it in the hands of a 3A model, and it costs DOUBLE the points...for a 5-point upgrade, I'd take plenty of swaghammers just because they're so dang cool and they synergize with me dumping my CP into a melee team. But at 30 points, oof. I can see them being good on that mixed KT where you take 3 bikes and 2 Vanvets, give the two vanvets swaghammers and let them go to town with their ability to fall back, shoot, and charge all in the same turn and majority T5, with the bikes providing cheap ablative wounds. I can also see taking a couple in a kill team you've got stashed in a rhino or a blackstar.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
You have strats to deal out mortal wounds (have a sqd with MLs and a HB plus some stalker bolters in backfield). With the right Mission tactics you can reroll 1s to wound, plus use the strat to wound on a +1. With some focussed fire, I think you can take some big nasties down.
bullyboy wrote: You have strats to deal out mortal wounds (have a sqd with MLs and a HB plus some stalker bolters in backfield). With the right Mission tactics you can reroll 1s to wound, plus use the strat to wound on a +1. With some focussed fire, I think you can take some big nasties down.
To clarify a roll of 1 always fails. But +1 to wound while rerolling 1s to wound synergizes so well you'll almost never fail a wound roll. It's gonna be nasty.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Troop 4 Veterans (Heavy Weapons of some kind)
1 Sergeant
4 Bikers
1 Vanguard Veteran
Combat squad the four Vets and Sarge to stand back and be Devastators, basically, while the Bikers and VV rush forward, unloading 8-16 SIA shots.
I'm going to try 2 VV and 3 Bikes - TH/SS on the VVs. Basically a T5 squad that can charge one turn, fall back another and still shoot and charge again.
I think one of my squads is going to be 7 Vets, 1 Vet Sergeant, and 2 TH/SS Terminators to toss wounds on. AP-3? Throw it on the shield. 2D? Throw it on a rando. Both? Well... Don't play against Dhrukari.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
10 vets with storm bolters in a teleportarium? 210pts for guaranteed 40 SIA shots seems reasonable to me! Could have durable primaris kill teams start on the board and a couple of these death-squads porting in to rinse some hordes?
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
Can watch captains have heavy thunder hammers? One of those with a jump pack would be good - or just one of them with a normal thunder hammer.
I can see a case for taking two battalions. One could have squads made up of 5 auto bolt rifle intercessors, with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. The other could be 5 rapid fire intercessors and either 5 hellblasters or 4 and an inceptor. Take a watch master, a couple of THJP captains and a librarian as your HQs. That would come to around 2k - actually probably a bit over.
The idea is to have T5 squads advancing forwards chucking dakka out while the rapid fire guys follow along with the heavier firepower. No vehicles but ~60 primaris bodies for the enemy to get through. You can beacon in a squad with hellblasters to one of the captains if you want. If you need to save points maybe make one of the units 5 barebones intercessors, or maybe swap the odd aggressor for a reiver.
Well, it took 3 days of searching on ebay, but I finally found enough Storm Bolters for 10 vets and 3 biker sergeants. Hope that'll be enough.
Doing some list building and I'm finding some problems getting solid anti tank into my lists without compromising anti infantry capabilities.
The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Thinking chaplain dreads with a LC might be an option. His character rule means he can sit back and snipe vehicles all day. 212 points, but I'm not seeing many cheaper AT options available. Contemptor Mortis is also looking good in that role with twice the firepower, but without the character protection.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/11 11:11:34
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
I think he means Relic tax. He'd need another Heavy Support just to take a Leviathan. Really though until we hear otherwise, I'm operating under the assumption that maybe Deathwatch can't take Leviathans. I'm not really sure how it works with special chapters of Space Marines already.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
You can definitely take Leviathans and have been able to for a while.
Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
You can definitely take Leviathans and have been able to for a while.
Hell yeah. Thanks man!
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Storm cannons are what I’ve got on my leviathan. 20 shots mean it’s good for shooting at pretty much anything.
Ap above -2 starts to suffer diminishing returns. So many targets are rocking invulnerable saves now. Make them take lots and lots of invulnerable saves. And obviously doing large amounts of damage per hit is often wasted against targets with just one or two wounds.
Range also matters. 18” is in charge range of far more stuff than 24”. A storm cannon leviathan doesn’t really need to deep strike, so it can be on the board killing stuff on turn one - which is vital.
Mandragola wrote: Storm cannons are what I’ve got on my leviathan. 20 shots mean it’s good for shooting at pretty much anything.
Ap above -2 starts to suffer diminishing returns. So many targets are rocking invulnerable saves now. Make them take lots and lots of invulnerable saves. And obviously doing large amounts of damage per hit is often wasted against targets with just one or two wounds.
Range also matters. 18” is in charge range of far more stuff than 24”. A storm cannon leviathan doesn’t really need to deep strike, so it can be on the board killing stuff on turn one - which is vital.
Normally, I agree storm cannons are the go to choice, but the ability to get into the 18" range with the grav bombards and cyclonic with teleportarium feels too good to pass up. I'm not having trouble including anti infantry elsewhere in the list, but getting AT that could reliably cripple a Knight seems solely to fall into the Leviathans domain.
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
Two is one, one is none. A good list will remove or kill the Leviathan the turn after it comes down unless I manage to gut their AT capability with it. Rapier tax is the relic tax, but it pretty much has to be a rapier since there's not a lot of heavy support options in the DW, much less affordable ones.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/11 18:31:44
That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
Lemondish wrote: That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
In its defense, T8 with 2+/4++ is going to be very hard to bring down. Doable in one turn? Totally. But that's going to be the entire enemy turn of shooting, psychic powers, and possibly assault just to bring down 1 model. And that 1 model being a total beast means you'll be spending less resources on the battlefield to keep it buffed. Might of Heroes and Teleportarium get a huge boost in value when you use it on a Leviathan compared to using it on its point equivalent of smaller models. If you don't want a big stick that's gonna draw lots of hate then don't take one, but I'm definitely considering it.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Lemondish wrote: That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
Yes, but which of those toys can match 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots? Keeping in mind the +1 to wound strats can only affect a single unit at a time.
2X Contemptor Mortis with twin Lascannons gives you 8 Str 9 AP -3 D6D shots without the relic req/slightly lower total points cost and is the only real solid AT alternative within the DW, I feel. But only half those shots can benefit from the doctrine Stratagems.
Going outside DW, 2x Cadian or Catachan Manticores could maybe fill in the AT role for a good bit cheaper, but they're significantly less durable and the BS 4 will struggle against Eldar.
Speaking of the Leviathan...I still hate soup lists on principle, but as for effectiveness, what do you think about doing something like this?
AM Battalion 5CPs
2x commander
3x infantry squad
~200pts
SM Batallion 5CPs (prob BA, but could be any)
2x Captain - hammer, jump pack
3x Scouts - 1+ heavy bolters here for Hellfire strat
~400pts
DW Battalion 5CPs
2x Watch Captain ~250pts
1x Leviathan ~310pts
1x Mortis Dread ~130pts (or any cheap heavy for relic req)
3x 5 Intercessor squads ~290pts
That leaves somewhere around 400-450 pts for primaris guys of choice to add to the intercessors. Call it 10, more if using Reivers.
That gives a ton of CPs, a bunch of troops on the board and CC characters, and some crazy good shooting when you come down if you deep strike the Leviathan and the 2 biggest DW squads and then use their various strats.
bort wrote: Speaking of the Leviathan...I still hate soup lists on principle, but as for effectiveness, what do you think about doing something like this?
AM Battalion 5CPs
2x commander
3x infantry squad
~200pts
SM Batallion 5CPs (prob BA, but could be any)
2x Captain - hammer, jump pack
3x Scouts - 1+ heavy bolters here for Hellfire strat
~400pts
DW Battalion 5CPs
2x Watch Captain ~250pts
1x Leviathan ~310pts
1x Mortis Dread ~130pts (or any cheap heavy for relic req)
3x 5 Intercessor squads ~290pts
That leaves somewhere around 400-450 pts for primaris guys of choice to add to the intercessors. Call it 10, more if using Reivers.
That gives a ton of CPs, a bunch of troops on the board and CC characters, and some crazy good shooting when you come down if you deep strike the Leviathan and the 2 biggest DW squads and then use their various strats.
Biggest issue is the same I'm running into while list building, not enough to cover both anti vehicle and anti infantry needs while keeping a decent amount of CP.
The problem is all of the AT shooting is 20 Str 7 AP-2 2D shots and whatever you could fit on to the Mortis.
Your anti horde is 15-30 intercessor shots. If you add in aggressors, that eats your 400 points surplus up pretty quickly and leaves you with 2 Lascannons and 2 storm cannon arrays to handle all of your ranged AT. The four thunder hammer Captains could certainly help with AT, but I'm hesitant to consider melee AT as a significant contributor to that side of the equation.
It's way less shooting than I normally run in lists as a gunline player, but it's also way more CPs and way more CC power too...
I honestly don't think DW need to worry as much about AT as other marine lists. Just burn your +1 to wound power plus the ap from special issue ammo and even bolters will drop vehicles.
My main concern with my idea is a big chunk of the list isn't actually using the SIA. But I'd need the codex to compare exact loadout prices and options to see whether I'd stick with primaris or instead say do vets with storm bolters for more SIA shots.
They went up against some Catachans. Since I intend to ally these guys with my guard, I took a few liberties by starting these guys in their deep struck position as if it were already turn 2. The guard were also gunlineing it a bit to save more time. To make up for these things the guard had about 150 points more and there weren't any bad units in the force which was made up of:
Both games ended in a blood bath with the captain and librarian (and a couple veterans in one game) on the field with just some tied up basilisks.
Some takeaways:
The storm bolters were fantastic. Even with just 5 in the squad, I ended up split firing a bit against the infantry squads since I didn't need 5 storm bolters to cripple them.
The breacher setup was excellent. Those basilisks, conquerors, and plasma guns have a lot of AP, so among 6 breachers, I think there 6 saves (in each game) that would have gone through the armor.
I love that captain. I originally didn't want to spend the points, but the relic blade is a nice weapon. I think the real gem here is the storm bolter with the relic ammo. 4 shots which a captain will rarely miss, SIA for wounding (+ mission tactics or even a +1 to wound stratagem if you get the chance against a character) wound rolls of 6 cause an additional mortal wound, and finally 2 damage.
I need to rethink how to handle the frag cannons. The unit that had 3 of them didn't work out. My original hope with that squad was to deep strike it closer to a vehicle and move it towards infantry in the next turn, but the Conquerors felt differently. The ones that were buried in the over squads, however, made their points back against the guardsmen. When deep striking the weapon, the real goal is to have it live until next turn. I don't think I'll ever put more than two of them in a deep striking squad again. Maybe a rhino would work
Full deathwatch armies may need to find a different solution against armor, since the captain and librarian were the only thing keeping those Russes in check. But as allies for my guard, they did exactly what I hoped they would do.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
Chaos Terminators come with 5 axes in a box and not everyone uses them. They have a scary face embellishment at the top of the haft that can be sanded or filled in with greenstuff, other than that they're pretty generic.
Chaos Terminator Storm Bolter arms might actually be the simplest way to get Storm Bolter arms right now. Chop off the blade at the front and sand down the pointy symbols and you have something to work with.
While that works, I'll honestly going to just commit to the wrist mounted Grey Knight bolters because they look so bloody cool.
Aren't they going to be weird though because A) you need hands, and B) all but one are pointed as if they're holding a two handed weapon.
The ones from the Paladins kit look like separate pieces. Are they not?
Two battalions. Standard Guard CP battery of three bare Infantry squads and 2 company commanders. Added in two Manticores to help out my ranged game. Grand Strategist/Kurov's Aquila
Deathwatch battalion:
Watch Capt with TH/SB and Beacon Angelus
Librarian
Kill team with 4x FC, 4x SS/Bolter, 2x Bolter/CS in a Corvus Blackstar
5 man Intercessors
10 man Fortis KT with 5x Intercessors/5x Bolt Aggressors.
Rapier Quad HB Leviathan with 2x Storm Cannons
Came out to about 1990 total after the points adjustments.
Opponent ran a big unit of hellions, a 9 man unit of the DE bikes, a venom, 2 razorwings, the DE bomber, 5 dark lance Raiders each with 5 kabalites with blaster, 2 archons, a unit of 5 scourges, and one other character I can't recall right now.
I kept my Leviathan in DS to keep him from getting shot off the board first turn and chose the FA mission tactic.
He killed a Manticore and all my Guardsmen turn one since I kept as much of the DW stuff as possible out of LOS. After that though, I just started to pick apart his army. Ended almost tabling him on turn 5 with the Leviathan at 4 wounds, the Fortis KT at almost full strength, and the normal kill team with 3 FC left.
The anti Eldar strat is actually not bad, getting a few extra wounds in on the fliers on his turn helped ensure they died on my turn. If I had read it better, Id have noticed it says Deathwatch UNIT, not just infantry, so my Leviathan could have gotten in on the action.
The deep striking leviathan was a rockstar. Granted, DE are the perfect target for the Storm Cannon Array, but he absorbed so many blaster/DL shots over the course of the game that it felt like I would have gotten a lot of value out of him, the durability cannot be written off.
The Fortis Kill team also performed admirably. Having intercessors to soak wounds meant my aggressors lived long enough to double fire. They basically dominated that portion of the board.
Overall impression is positive. Though, this army is absolutely ravenous for CP. 13 starting CP and I was dry by turn 3 and that was with GS/Kurovs. As such, I can't see myself ever making a DW character a warlord in a competitive army. The difference between a 5+ recovery period CP vs a 5+ recovery per stratagem is massive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 04:47:10
john27 wrote: Does anyone have any tips for building a 750 point army and what kind of units I should be using in it
At 750, you don't have the points budget to diversify. I would just go all-in with a one trick teleport pony of a maxed out kill team, a jump Captain, and maybe a razorback for some supporting fire or to act as an LOS blockers.
Something like jump Captain with thunder hammer/storm Bolter with beacon angelus relic.
Kill team with 4x frag cannons, 4x storm shield and Bolter, 2x terminators with power sword and storm Bolters.
Razorback with twin assault cannon.
Depending on the map, you want to keep the KT hidden out of LOS turn one. You can either start the CPT on the table or wait to DS him turn 2. Use his mobility to get you a good position and teleport the KT to his position.
Alternative build at 750 would be Corvus + Watchmaster and a team similar to above minus a Terminator so you can fit everybody inside. Fly Corvus up, drop everyone out, and run up and frag cannon them in the face.
So I just got the codex yesterday and I've been brainstorming on a list for 1000pt tournament coming up in June. I'll have to toe it by hand since BattleScribe hasn't been updated yet. Here's what had in mind although I let the book at the house and can't remember all the points costs yet.
Mission tactic -Furor- reroll 1s against troops
HQ Watch captain jumppack TH, Storm bolter 113pts
Warlord trait-Castellan of the black vault- adds 1 Damage to non relic weapon . Using on thunder hammer
Relic- banebolts of eryxia add 1 to damage of special issue ammo 6s. Are mortal wounds
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
