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Well, it's not an issue for those who can afford, or have access to, the treatments. Also assuming that you receive said treatment quickly.

 Desubot wrote:

IIRC radiation isnt that big of an issue for the imperium

i recall some story about some chick that get hit with a heavy dose of cosmic radiation while in a ship. she takes some meds and is fine.

SM for sure are radiation resistant.

In Ravenor the bird cops a high doses of radiation from a sun, she gets cancer from it.. but gets cured by a daemon possed friend

Something to consider is such rapid destruction of matter weakens the veil between the Materium and the Empyrean, leading to high incidence of mutation of those in the immediate area of the explosion.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, it's not an issue for those who can afford, or have access to, the treatments. Also assuming that you receive said treatment quickly.

Or have the extra organs and toughness to survive until the treatment is available - which probably is a good part of a space marine's radiation resistance. He doesn't shrug it off but he can survive and function longer than a normal man, giving him a better chance of reaching a faciliy with said treatments before dying. Probably no further off than the battlebarge or strike cruiser that deployed him.

 Desubot wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Marines are definitely resistant to radiation. At least enough to where, provided the radiation isn't strong enough to actually kill them, they'll survive and not suffer any permanent damage. IE: They're not going to get cancer.

Naturally high enough radiation will kill them simply by cooking their body, but they can survive ambient radiation exposure that would normally kill a human.

IIRC radiation isnt that big of an issue for the imperium

i recall some story about some chick that get hit with a heavy dose of cosmic radiation while in a ship. she takes some meds and is fine.

SM for sure are radiation resistant.

They are, just look at the Salamanders they get their colour from a defect in the gene that handles their rad resistance; the melanchromatic organ.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Melanchromic_Organ

Nuclear Shaped Charges are theoretical. But in 40k, it could be do able.



Nukes do exist in 40k. They could easily be just hidden away in some storage bunker. Galaxy is big enough that some nuclear weapons are bound to be somewhere...

Well, a lot of the time a ship in orbit firing weapons batteries or lances (say nothing of bombardment cannons) will lay just as much waste on the surface as tactical nukes.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Atomics, especially as we know them IRL, are probably widely regarded by the denizens of 40K to be quite crude, unsofisticated weapons that have largely been replaced by more efficient, more effective weapons.

Leman Russes are modified tractors that run on wood/coal/oil. Crude means nothing to the Imperium.
Name a more efficient/effective (for the cost) weapon than a nuke, please.

You've missed the point. IRL the nuke is a WMD. In the 40K universe it's a firecracker in comparison to far larger, far more potent, far more devastating WMDs at the various factions desposal. In far greater numbers, to boot. Any battlefield objective sought that can be attained with the use of tactical nukes, in the 40K world can be achieved using far more efficient and/or more suitable weapons, is my point.

Such as? The physics involved are clear. The most efficient weapon possible is an antimatter weapon (which 40k races don't have), followed by a pure fusion bomb (A NUKE.), and then hydrogen bombs, then nukes. There cannot be more powerful explosives than that. Plasma cannot generate the same forces, because of atomic reactions being unique in their damage output and effects.

Chemical weapons aren't particularly effective, due to rebreathers, and they mostly take the form of mutagenic acids in bullets. Bioweapons are only used for exterminatus (IIRC) because of their uncontrollable nature.

Conversion Beamers are antimatter-based weapons. The Necrons make use of several antimatter-based weapons as well - the Death Sphere is explicitly a WMD antimatter bomb and Particle weapons utilise antimatter.

On top of that, there are other, more esoteric means of attack available to the other races that seem to have a comparable level of effectiveness. The Eldar make use of a strange but extremely powerful substance called Darklight, for example, which is some kind of strange science-fiction magic Dark Matter that acts nothing like actual Dark Matter, with the Dark Eldar frequently using it in smaller weapons like Void Mines but we're also told about the Akiliamor, planet-killer bombs. The Orks have absurdly powerful gravity manipulation technology, as we saw during the War of the Beast. There's also Vortex weaponry to consider, and it's equivalent among the Eldar, scaling up to things like the Blackstone Fortresses.

Basically, using conventional physics ignores a lot of the more powerful technology in-setting which is effectively either literal magic or clarketech. The upper-tier races like the Necrons and Dark Eldar regularly use weapons that operate on principles we today would recognise as functionally impossible.

 Engine of War wrote:
Nuclear Shaped Charges are theoretical. But in 40k, it could be do able.



Nukes do exist in 40k. They could easily be just hidden away in some storage bunker. Galaxy is big enough that some nuclear weapons are bound to be somewhere...

That's not a shaped charge, that's a slow-release burn meant to be used for space travel. Detonating a full fusion warhead in one blast and trying to direct the explosion into a beam should see the shell just explode like a shrapnel grenade.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
Nuclear Shaped Charges are theoretical. But in 40k, it could be do able.



Nukes do exist in 40k. They could easily be just hidden away in some storage bunker. Galaxy is big enough that some nuclear weapons are bound to be somewhere...

That's not a shaped charge, that's a slow-release burn meant to be used for space travel. Detonating a full fusion warhead in one blast and trying to direct the explosion into a beam should see the shell just explode like a shrapnel grenade.

Surely it is a shaped charge. I'm no rocket scientist, but I don't think they use a tungsten carbide as a propellant for propulsion...

Spartacus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
Nuclear Shaped Charges are theoretical. But in 40k, it could be do able.



Nukes do exist in 40k. They could easily be just hidden away in some storage bunker. Galaxy is big enough that some nuclear weapons are bound to be somewhere...

That's not a shaped charge, that's a slow-release burn meant to be used for space travel. Detonating a full fusion warhead in one blast and trying to direct the explosion into a beam should see the shell just explode like a shrapnel grenade.

Surely it is a shaped charge. I'm no rocket scientist, but I don't think they use a tungsten carbide as a propellant for propulsion...

Google image search calls it a shaped charge, and I don't think you could do a slow burn like you were saying, unless you referring to project Orion. In our time, the only way you get nuclear propulsion is "hot rock makes steam"

Though, the picture does very closely resemble a black and white picture on the Wikipedia project Orion page for a "pulse unit"

Using Nukes as a means of propelling a spaceship has been around as a concept for quite a while. It's doable, but it's not really feasible since nukes are expensive and carrying enough to travel from point A to B is a problem. Plus I doubt you'd be able to convince many people to ride in a space ship that has nuclear bombs detonating in uncomfortably close proximity.

Though, the picture does very closely resemble a black and white picture on the Wikipedia project Orion page for a "pulse unit"

Spartacus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
Nuclear Shaped Charges are theoretical. But in 40k, it could be do able.



Nukes do exist in 40k. They could easily be just hidden away in some storage bunker. Galaxy is big enough that some nuclear weapons are bound to be somewhere...

That's not a shaped charge, that's a slow-release burn meant to be used for space travel. Detonating a full fusion warhead in one blast and trying to direct the explosion into a beam should see the shell just explode like a shrapnel grenade.

Surely it is a shaped charge. I'm no rocket scientist, but I don't think they use a tungsten carbide as a propellant for propulsion...

That's the Projection Orion pulse unit. It's not a weapon but a method of propulsion for space travel. As a weapon it would likely destroy itself (indeed even as a propulsion unit it would likely destroy itself), and reloading would be an extremely complex process. Meanwhile you can just get a titan blastgun and fire what is basically a miniature solar flare at the enemy.

(Imperial Plasma is described as being in excess of two million degrees Fahrenheit and has enough energy in pistol form that missed shots cause the enemy to combust from proximity)

 Wyzilla wrote:
That's the Projection Orion pulse unit. It's not a weapon but a method of propulsion for space travel. As a weapon it would likely destroy itself (indeed even as a propulsion unit it would likely destroy itself), and reloading would be an extremely complex process. Meanwhile you can just get a titan blastgun and fire what is basically a miniature solar flare at the enemy.

(Imperial Plasma is described as being in excess of two million degrees Fahrenheit and has enough energy in pistol form that missed shots cause the enemy to combust from proximity)

Bombs do tend to destroy themselves =D

You can make a shaped charge of a kind for nuclear weapons using the same principle as neutron bombs.

In conventional nuclear bombs you encase them in lead or another high density metal to contain the initial charge slightly so it can set off the reaction in the main fission material. However, in a neutron bomb they use casing material that's transparent to neutron radiation. This reduces the ultimate yield of the bomb as the neutron radiation causes fission in the casing material, adding to the yield. However, it does blanket the area in tons of neutron radiation which is nasty nasty stuff.

So, to build a sort of shaped charge you could build the majority of the casing out of lead, but the nose of it out of material that's transparent to neutrons. What you'll get there is a medium yield nuclear bomb that also emits a directed beam on neutron radiation.

Hey presto, shaped charge

So reading about this Project Orion, looks like the idea is that these devices would be detonated at the rear of a spacecraft, aimed at the space craft's large 'pusher plate'. The tungsten propellant would be projected as a jet to strike and impart its momentum to the plate, which would in turn push the spacecraft along (with shock absorbers to cushion the considerable blow). Definately not a slow burning fuel.

The little pulse unit shaped charges were only meant to be relatively small, and not form a projectile that was optimised for penetrating the spacecrafts pusher plate (obviously). I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that this could be up scaled and redesigned to a very potent weapon of war.

Considering the vast difference in explosive velocity between plastic explosives (used in current day shaped charge warheads) and todays nuclear weapons, I think you might end up with one hell of an armour (or is that planet?) defeating device if you make it big enough.

The Rogue Trader RPG says they are very rare and presumably the knowledge to make them is scarce.

Stop analyzing in terms of cost/benefit analysis, like "why wouldn't they know how to make nukes and use them?" The Imperium does not have technology; it has magic items empowered by God. They don't know anything. If there are no instructions for making an Omnissiah's Holy Burning Flame, or whatever, in the Tome of the Machine-God's Wrath and Means of Must Justly Smiting Those Who Would Defy Him, you can't make it, and in fact it would be a sin to try to do so, basically consorting with dark forces.

That's a little too extreme of an interpretation of the Imperium's relationship with technology. Research and development does exist, legally. It just has to go through massive hoops and get vetted thoroughly before it gets approved. And the person doing it has to be approved to do it.

That's of course assuming the technology involved is sacred. You could invent a slightly superior configuration of a personal vox communicator by using a more powerful transmitter from a LRBT's vox caster. That would be kosher, since you didn't actually alter any of the pieces. Just used individual sacred pieces of technology to make another sacred piece of technology.

People also may not know all the science behind what they're using, but that's not always necessary for something to work. I don't know jack squat about computer programming, most people don't. Yet I can build my own computer out of parts that I bought, install the OS myself, etc...

It wouldn't be heretical for an individual in the 41st millennium to build his own personal cogitator, assuming he used all sanctioned parts. Say a dude was building a cogitator out of parts he was purchasing from the local supplier(who buys from the local forge world). But while the standard configuration of the cogitator he is building is the X97B, he decides to get a more powerful CPU from the X3Y Cogitator. He knows that the CPU interface for both cogitator models is the same. He has no idea what CPU means, but he knows what it does and that it determines the power of the machine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's of course assuming the technology involved is sacred. You could invent a slightly superior configuration of a personal vox communicator by using a more powerful transmitter from a LRBT's vox caster. That would be kosher, since you didn't actually alter any of the pieces. Just used individual sacred pieces of technology to make another sacred piece of technology.

Considering it took centuries to approve sticking Lascannons on a Predator it's fair to say that nothing is kosher.

Unless you're Belisarius Cawl - in which case you can do whatever you want.

 Robin5t wrote:
Unless you're Belisarius Cawl - in which case you can do whatever you want.

To be fair, if that guy walked up to you. You'd probably let him do what he wanted too.

 Robin5t wrote:
Unless you're Belisarius Cawl - in which case you can do whatever you want.

i hope he gets put in his place about that, although i doubt it. There's a reason most people don't meddle with things in the 40k galaxy. Sh*t tends to go sideways in a rather big way.

It doesn't quite feel like 40k if it doesn't personally...

Yes. Cawl is a heretic, Primaris Marines are tech-heresy, and Guilliman is a re-animated Eldar puppet. Purge them all.

 Grey Templar wrote:

KayTwo wrote:
I sometimes feel as though people just blow off nukes as "just nukes", at the same time I don't have the aptitude or the patients to sit down and compare Mt or Jules of energy released. Indeed, I don't even expect nuclear weapons of the 40k universe to be similar to the ones we have today. At the very least I am sure they have advanced to pure fusion weapons. Nor do I see any reason for nuclear weapons to be "undirected" surely there is a way to get a nuke to preform as a shaped charge and direct all of its energy into a target. And finally, we aren't just talking about space battles, wouldn't a nuke be a rather handy way to take down a titan?

A nuke as a shaped charge? Not really possible. A nuclear bomb pretty much vaporizes anything close to the actual detonation. Shaped charges also don't work like how you're imagining them. What a shaped charge is isn't the force of the explosion being contained and directed at a point, a shaped charge is an explosion which has a inverted cone of metal(usually copper) strapped to the front. The undirected explosion, due to how the spherical energy wave interacts with the cone, causes the cone to melt and turn into a single jet of molten metal. Shaped charges are used to trigger nuclear bombs, specifically fusion bombs, but you're not going to create a massive shaped charge with the nuclear bomb itself. It's going to direct all it's energy outwards in a sphere, and there really isn't anything you can do about it. No bomb fuselage you can create is going to actually contain a nuclear blast at point blank range, which is what would be needed to direct the blast.

A nuke could take on a titan, but it wouldn't be ideal. Nukes aren't very focused, so unless the bomb was detonated right next to the titan it's shielding and physical armor would likely allow it to survive. Maybe it's not going to be unscathed, but not the best plan of attack. Given that the Imperium has direct energy weapons like turbo-lasers and plasma weaponry, those are more effective options. In terms of energy directed at a single point, they'd be more destructive than a nuclear bomb.

You could totally make a shaped charge that could direct a nuclear blast - but why do that when for much less resources you could make a penetrator for the device and detonate inside the target - that would destroy pretty much anything.

Verviedi is correct. Nukes never go out of style, but they make for terrible narratives. Remember that most things in 40K can be killed by heavy stubbers. They have zero chance vs WMDs. Even a thermobaric device would do catastrophic damage to a 40K battlefield, but again, bad narrative.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's a little too extreme of an interpretation of the Imperium's relationship with technology. Research and development does exist, legally. It just has to go through massive hoops and get vetted thoroughly before it gets approved. And the person doing it has to be approved to do it.

That's of course assuming the technology involved is sacred. You could invent a slightly superior configuration of a personal vox communicator by using a more powerful transmitter from a LRBT's vox caster. That would be kosher, since you didn't actually alter any of the pieces. Just used individual sacred pieces of technology to make another sacred piece of technology.

All technology is sacred. "Research and development" are the equivalent of making a new exegesis of Scripture or writing a new prayer.

You can do that, but the prayer better be proper. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Robin5t wrote:
Unless you're Belisarius Cawl - in which case you can do whatever you want.

Cawl is an arch-heretic. That he is in a position of great power is another example of Imperial hypocrisy and lying, which is a general theme in the setting.

Martel732 wrote:
Verviedi is correct. Nukes never go out of style, but they make for terrible narratives. Remember that most things in 40K can be killed by heavy stubbers. They have zero chance vs WMDs. Even a thermobaric device would do catastrophic damage to a 40K battlefield, but again, bad narrative.

One could use nukes as a plot device.

Omicron-9, a vital forge world, is under siege by a Tyranid fleet. Tactical assessment has deemed that the planet cannot be held. Time is needed to evacuate the vital materials and machinery from the main forge hive. Strategic nuclear weapons, deployed via missiles as well as ordinatus batteries deployed around the hive, are used to periodically wipe out the advancing waves of tyranids 100 km away from the outer defenses, along with longer range detonations to wipe out tyranid staging areas and breeding pits. Any that survive are easily held back by the forces in the surrounding defense works. The Tyranids quickly evolved radiation resistance, but nothing could protect from the sheer force of nuclear detonation. The vital materials were evacuated, along with most ground forces.

That could at least potentially make for a good narrative.

I would really like that. Have the nukes be used for that, and the Skitarii guarding the Ordinatii and silos against Genestealer cults and lictors.

Nuclear launch detected...