Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was checking the pricing for the normal space marine dreadnaught (70pts) and the furioso dreadnaught (122pts) . Does anyone know why you pay an extra 52pts for the Furioso base costs before weapons? They have the exact same stats and neither get special rules. Does the Furioso come with its gear already included in the cost?

broxus wrote:
I was checking the pricing for the normal space marine dreadnaught (70pts) and the furioso dreadnaught (122pts) . Does anyone know why you pay an extra 52pts for the Furioso base costs before weapons? They have the exact same stats and neither get special rules. Does the Furioso come with its gear already included in the cost?

The reason is poor game balance. Any CC dread is already highly situational - great against Orks and Nids for example, fairly useless walking slowly across the board versus other armies. They should cost LESS than shooty varieties. You can add MORE cost, Stormraven for example to make them more useful but a Shooty dread will always be a better choice.

Further confusing things; look at the IronClad ...it's T8, and with Seismic Hammer and DCCW it's still cheaper than a Furioso with 2 Fists (forget about the Talons which are even way more expensive).

Yes but my point being is the BASE stats are exactly the same before weapons but one is 52 more points. You have the same exact close combat profile. I think they included the cost of the weapons into the Furioso's base cost. That is the only thing that makes sense. A normal dreadnaught with one CC weapon hits exactly the same as a Furiso with one. The, BS, WS, S, T, Attacks, wounds, everything are the same.

On the Blood Angels Points Value page it specifically states, "POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)".

Just crap game balance.

Furioso Dreadnaut has "Magna-Grapple" special rule - plus, it has special/unique weapons, thats why.

Furioso fists get to reroll to hits

you get the magna grapple which helps them move.

those are some pretty good bonuses.

The base cost of the models are different because it accounts for the cost of the weapon options they have access to. A normal Dreadnought must take a single fist (40 points) and another ranged weapon (ranging from 20-50). Furiosos can instead pay one flat cost for both fists (50) hence why it has a higher base cost without weapons. (whether or not these costs are *balanced* is another issue entirely)

This is the same reason why normal terminators and assault terminators have different point costs as well, despite the fact that ignoring their weapons they are identical in every way.

fe40k wrote:
Furioso Dreadnaut has "Magna-Grapple" special rule - plus, it has special/unique weapons, thats why.

They don't have a special rule, the Magna-Grapple is a 5-point upgrade and you lose your Smoke Launchers. It's ok, but hardly, hardly worth the point difference and again, highly situational.

 Gunzhard wrote:
On the Blood Angels Points Value page it specifically states, "POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)".

Just crap game balance.

Yea I just think it is a mistake. I can't see a 52 point increase for no reason. It is so massive of a diffrence it seems like they costed the gear into the model. Why would ANY Blood Angels player not just take a normal dread for almost half the cost and exact same stats?

And further, I'm not saying the Furioso is total crap - but if the actual goal here is Balance, for once... the points definitely don't make sense.

Again, compare the Furioso to the IronClad with a Seismic Hammer and DCCW... the latter is cheaper and better.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also unless you only play against Hoards... there is no way you can argue that a Shooty Dread isn't always more useful than a CC-dread variety, especially now that drop-pods are out of the equation.

Yes you can add more points ( a stormraven ) and stretch the usage, but the Shooty dread is better all day. And the points should reflect that.

broxus wrote:


Yea I just think it is a mistake. I can't see a 52 point increase for no reason. It is so massive of a diffrence it seems like they costed the gear into the model. Why would ANY Blood Angels player not just take a normal dread for almost half the cost and exact same stats?

REROLLS all to hits with the weapon. in a game where getting rerolls requires an HQ or Elite to be 3-6" away and costs an extra 100.

no reason my foot.

broxus wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
On the Blood Angels Points Value page it specifically states, "POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)".

Just crap game balance.

Yea I just think it is a mistake. I can't see a 52 point increase for no reason. It is so massive of a diffrence it seems like they costed the gear into the model. Why would ANY Blood Angels player not just take a normal dread for almost half the cost and exact same stats?

Not an error, see my post ----v

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The base cost of the models are different because it accounts for the cost of the weapon options they have access to. A normal Dreadnought must take a single fist (40 points) and another ranged weapon (ranging from 20-50). Furiosos can instead pay one flat cost for both fists (50) hence why it has a higher base cost without weapons. (whether or not these costs are *balanced* is another issue entirely)

This is the same reason why normal terminators and assault terminators have different point costs as well, despite the fact that ignoring their weapons they are identical in every way.

Also what Desubot said too. Being able to reroll to hit is HUGE for a CC beast, especially since the Ironclad gets -1 to hit due to the Seismic hammer having pseudo-unwieldy.

 Desubot wrote:

broxus wrote:


Yea I just think it is a mistake. I can't see a 52 point increase for no reason. It is so massive of a diffrence it seems like they costed the gear into the model. Why would ANY Blood Angels player not just take a normal dread for almost half the cost and exact same stats?

REROLLS all to hits with the weapon. in a game where getting rerolls requires an HQ or Elite to be 3-6" away and costs an extra 100.

no reason my foot.

You mean an HQ that in most lists you are REQUIRED to take anyway? ...c'mon now. And try to explain the cost of the Blood Talons (65 points each) with no re-roll then.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

broxus wrote:


Yea I just think it is a mistake. I can't see a 52 point increase for no reason. It is so massive of a diffrence it seems like they costed the gear into the model. Why would ANY Blood Angels player not just take a normal dread for almost half the cost and exact same stats?

REROLLS all to hits with the weapon. in a game where getting rerolls requires an HQ or Elite to be 3-6" away and costs an extra 100.

no reason my foot.

You mean an HQ that in most lists you are REQUIRED to take anyway? ...c'mon now. And try to explain the cost of the Blood Talons (65 points each) with no re-roll then.

Do you want that chapi near a unit of assault marines with punchy power, or babysitting a single furioso? now you dont have to since you have a budget chapi inside the dread.

Blood talons D6 Damage.

look at everything else that does D6 damage and look at the price

they are valuing anything that can potentially half a vehicle in a single hit.

You're making my point for me. A walking CC dread is, and has pretty much always been, situational at best (against hoards) but mostly useless.

Best case the "single Furioso" SHOULD be getting bloody with the punchy power assault marines... and Chapi nearby... but he likely will be dead long before reaching assault despite more durability this edition.

The IronClad on the other hand is T8... in previous editions both were AV13 but the Furioso is only T7.

And the "rerolls" are NOT free. You still pay more for 2 fists than the Ironclad with SH&DCCW. ...Also ...the Talons (more expensive) have no rerolls.

And the IronClad does at least reroll 1's - so he only misses on 2's ever (without an HQ nearby fyi).

Where did i say free?

a budget chap is a budget chap.

As to walking it. it will die to any dedicated anti tank JUST the same as a Ironclad.

both have trouble walking the board. its better to keep them behind LOS and use as a counter assault unit as people get close to mid board. especially against vehicles and fast MC units which it should do fantastic against.

Yah know what all that amounts to? ...shooty dreads being WAY more useful right out of the box, and IronClad still being better.

If you're telling me the IronClads (FREE) T8 is not better now, you have NO argument. It IS more survivable, it is better and it can take Ironclad Assault Launchers... It also gets re-rolls.

My point - all of these units have certain uses - but the points are BADLY balanced. The points are OFF.

T8 and T7 are ceremonial at best in this edition; if the difference does become an issue then something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent.

Also if you use the Seismic Hammer, you miss on 2 and 3 since it imposes a -1 to hit modifier on you. Plus, you miss on a 1 a second time since you can't continually reroll a dice. The furioso doesn't miss flat out until the second result of a 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also might i point out that you guys are getting this worked over for a mere 4 point increase between two 170+ points models?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
T8 and T7 are ceremonial at best in this edition; if the difference does become an issue then something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent.

Also if you use the Seismic Hammer, you miss on 2 and 3 since it imposes a -1 to hit modifier on you. Plus, you miss on a 1 a second time since you can't continually reroll a dice. The furioso doesn't miss flat out until the second result of a 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also might i point out that you guys are getting this worked over for a mere 4 point increase between two 170+ points models?

Don't agree at all regarding T8, to some high str weapons it might not matter and to many many others it will.

Also if the "-1 to Hit" is an issue - take the Dreadnought Chainfist for the Ironclad - it's Cheaper still, and with the free DCCW you still get re-rolls.

You guys are trying to make the point that having options, despite each option having their own point cost, are the reason for the massive increase in Furioso base points - but IronClad has nearly all of the same options and in some ways more.

Further, I'd say Shooty dreads have even MORE options and again, are always more useful than any variety of situational CC dreadnought. This is perfectly fine - but the points should reflect that.

T8 as compared to T7 is actually a huge difference. Half wounds from S4 weapons, which are frightfully common.

 Gunzhard wrote:

You guys are trying to make the point that having options, despite each option having their own point cost, are the reason for the massive increase in Furioso base points - but IronClad has nearly all of the same options and in some ways more.

Which would be stupid. Furioso that does not take those options would then be overpriced...

 Gunzhard wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
T8 and T7 are ceremonial at best in this edition; if the difference does become an issue then something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent.

Also if you use the Seismic Hammer, you miss on 2 and 3 since it imposes a -1 to hit modifier on you. Plus, you miss on a 1 a second time since you can't continually reroll a dice. The furioso doesn't miss flat out until the second result of a 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also might i point out that you guys are getting this worked over for a mere 4 point increase between two 170+ points models?

Don't agree at all regarding T8, to some high str weapons it might not matter and to many many others it will.

Also if the "-1 to Hit" is an issue - take the Dreadnought Chainfist for the Ironclad - it's Cheaper still, and with the free DCCW you still get re-rolls.

You guys are trying to make the point that having options, despite each option having their own point cost, are the reason for the massive increase in Furioso base points - but IronClad has nearly all of the same options and in some ways more.

Further, I'd say Shooty dreads have even MORE options and again, are always more useful than any variety of situational CC dreadnought. This is perfectly fine - but the points should reflect that.

Yes indeed. Simply HAVING options does warrant a price increase; if it didn't why bother taking the thing with LESS options ever? And again, it's not a massive increase; The Ironclad VS Furioso literally has 2 points of a difference between their base costs, and 2-6 points worth of a difference between their weapon loadouts. The point costs difference in percent is, quite literally, less than 2%. As for the T8 thing, it's not a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing. The Chart itself showed that a lot of things will wound both on a 5+, but the difference is that Strength 4 weapons will wound Ironclads on a 6+. Again, if you're in a position where a high volumn of S4 shots will actually matter to the survival of your dread, then something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent already.

Another thing is, as it is currently, Blood Angels cannot take an Ironclad Dread at all. Even if the Ironclad is objectively better in every case (arguably not, since the Furioso almost definitely hits more while the Ironclad is more suited to monster hunting; the Furioso is actually superior in vehicle hunting because of the magna grapple making it even faster against vehicles for a paltry 5 point increase) the blood angels flat out don't have access to them.

As for Shooty VS Punchy Dread, it all depends on how you play. Punchy Dreads have gotten more powerful due to having a higher movement than before so they can cross the threshold faster. Not to mention exploding can deal some pretty serious damage right now; while not a sound tactic, I'm sure this was factored into the point cost as well (a shooty dread will, once in a blue moon, take someone out with their explosion. A Punchy Dread will almost certainly kill people as it dies). Shooty Dreads are also more suited to optimization while Punchy Dreads can usually handle most things if they can just close the distance.

Last thing I wanna add is: What is the movement on the non-furioso Dreadnoughts? I'm at work and can't check the PDFs but the posted images show that the Furioso has 2 more inches (that's 25% more movement) than the standard dread and the librarian dread. In this edition, movement is a big thing.

 JNAProductions wrote:
T8 as compared to T7 is actually a huge difference. Half wounds from S4 weapons, which are frightfully common.

Bolters against T7 is still a fairly subpar attack though. a clincher could be Plasma since you dont have to overcharge for a 4+ though the damage off most plasma "feels" subpar against tanks in general from the games iv played. gotta test it out some more.

 Desubot wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
T8 as compared to T7 is actually a huge difference. Half wounds from S4 weapons, which are frightfully common.

Bolters against T7 is still a fairly subpar attack though. a clincher could be Plasma since you dont have to overcharge for a 4+ though the damage off most plasma "feels" subpar against tanks in general from the games iv played. gotta test it out some more.

It may be a subpar attack but it does halve the number of wounds the bolters would deal, the hop from T7 to T8. Twenty Necron Warriors in rapid-fire range are knocking off two wounds instead of four.

(As to the initial question my guess is that either the writers didn't like the Furioso, forgot they gave the Ironclad T8, or at some point during the process changed from "starting wargear included in price" to "starting wargear not included in price" and forgot to change the Furioso.)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Yes indeed. Simply HAVING options does warrant a price increase; if it didn't why bother taking the thing with LESS options ever? And again, it's not a massive increase; The Ironclad VS Furioso literally has 2 points of a difference between their base costs, and 2-6 points worth of a difference between their weapon loadouts. The point costs difference in percent is, quite literally, less than 2%. As for the T8 thing, it's not a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing. The Chart itself showed that a lot of things will wound both on a 5+, but the difference is that Strength 4 weapons will wound Ironclads on a 6+. Again, if you're in a position where a high volumn of S4 shots will actually matter to the survival of your dread, then something has gone horribly wrong for your opponent already.

Another thing is, as it is currently, Blood Angels cannot take an Ironclad Dread at all. Even if the Ironclad is objectively better in every case (arguably not, since the Furioso almost definitely hits more while the Ironclad is more suited to monster hunting; the Furioso is actually superior in vehicle hunting because of the magna grapple making it even faster against vehicles for a paltry 5 point increase) the blood angels flat out don't have access to them.

As for Shooty VS Punchy Dread, it all depends on how you play. Punchy Dreads have gotten more powerful due to having a higher movement than before so they can cross the threshold faster. Not to mention exploding can deal some pretty serious damage right now; while not a sound tactic, I'm sure this was factored into the point cost as well (a shooty dread will, once in a blue moon, take someone out with their explosion. A Punchy Dread will almost certainly kill people as it dies). Shooty Dreads are also more suited to optimization while Punchy Dreads can usually handle most things if they can just close the distance.

Last thing I wanna add is: What is the movement on the non-furioso Dreadnoughts? I'm at work and can't check the PDFs but the posted images show that the Furioso has 2 more inches (that's 25% more movement) than the standard dread and the librarian dread. In this edition, movement is a big thing.

If HAVING options warrants a price increase, despite the options themselves having their own cost - then the IronClad should cost a LOT more, because it has more options. As for the Furioso "hitting more" ...well if you take an IronClad with Dread-chainfists and a DCCW it will hit with just as many attacks, also rerolling (except on 2's) - but the Dread-chainfist is AP-4 and Damage:4 while the Furioso Fists are only AP-3 and Damage:3.

Also lots of strength 4 shots? ...really - ever heard of double-tapping bolters? or Necrons?

Yes the Furioso does have 8" move, which I'd say is hardly enough to make a CC dreadnought more useful than a Shooty dreadnought (which also more options).

The Furioso can buy a Magna-grapple - but the IronClad can take Ironclad Assault LAunchers which are WAAY better... so for that option, by your reasoning - it should cost a LOT more.

I still think it is an error. If it was a 5-points more to take a fuirioso I would think anything of it. However, paying 52-points more to have the opportunity to pay more points for more upgrades is insane. All of the upgrades people mentioned cost more points.

To get the ability to reroll hits (all 4 attacks) requires a second close combat weapon (50pt upgrade). This makes the Furioso cost 172pts over the cost of normal dreadnaught 110pts that can't reroll their attacks. Not to mention the Furioso cant take any ranged weapons if it does. Also the Furioso does not get black rage or any other special rules.

It is very wonky and I hope it gets a FAQ. There would be zero reason to EVER take a Furioso over a normal dreadnaught. For his points differences I would just buy a chaplain to allow rerolls for failed attacks.

This is Dakka, I know how it works here... kids come and cry NERFED!! or OP!! ...and people pile in taking sides.

I'm not saying either -- but the points of these units clearly don't make sense if their [GW] goal is to truly make all the units balanced.

 Gunzhard wrote:
If HAVING options warrants a price increase, despite the options themselves having their own cost - then the IronClad should cost a LOT more, because it has more options. As for the Furioso "hitting more" ...well if you take an IronClad with Dread-chainfists and a DCCW it will hit with just as many attacks, also rerolling (except on 2's) - but the Dread-chainfist is AP-4 and Damage:4 while the Furioso Fists are only AP-3 and Damage:3.

Also lots of strength 4 shots? ...really - ever heard of double-tapping bolters? or Necrons?

Yes the Furioso does have 8" move, which I'd say is hardly enough to make a CC dreadnought more useful than a Shooty dreadnought (which also more options).

The Furioso can buy a Magna-grapple - but the IronClad can take Ironclad Assault LAunchers which are WAAY better... so for that option, by your reasoning - it should cost a LOT more.

I'm gonna ask again what is the movement on the Ironclad, because it seems that changes a whole lot about the argument. a 25% movement increase, potential to get another 2", and a higher chance to hit seems more than fair for, once again, a 2-6 point increase and a 1 toughness penalty.

As for the doubletapping bolters: as Anomander Rake pointed out above 20 necron warriors in double tap range would inflict a difference of 2 wounds between the Furioso and the Ironclad. 2 wounds worth of a difference. Out of 40 shots. Again, if this is ever an issue with your dreadnought's survival, something has gone horribly wrong with your opponent's battleplan. I suspect that the Ironclad might actually be MORE susceptable to this if it's movement is less than that of the Furioso, as the Furioso effectively has 16" worth of reach on it's move + charge. And again, if it becomes an issue that other units are within doubletap range when your furioso charges in, the enemy unit leaves the fight and your furioso is actually capable of being killed, then something has gone seriously wrong.

As I currently don't know the stats for the Ironclad Assault Launcher, I can't really weigh in on that one. If it's just a normal Assault Grenade Launcher I would rather compare it to the Hurricane Bolters or Frag Cannon for the ability to devastate opponents. The Magna Grapple, while it doesn't replace a weapon, is more of a utility wargear than a straightup weapon.

Ironclads get a brisk 6"

holy hell contemptors haul ass at 9"

assault launchers do d3 mortal wounds On the charge on a 4+

i cant find points for it so i dont take em personally.

broxus wrote:
I still think it is an error. If it was a 5-points more to take a fuirioso I would think anything of it. However, paying 52-points more to have the opportunity to pay more points for more upgrades is insane. All of the upgrades people mentioned cost more points.

To get the ability to reroll hits (all 4 attacks) requires a second close combat weapon (50pt upgrade). This makes the Furioso cost 172pts over the cost of normal dreadnaught 110pts that can't reroll their attacks. Not to mention the Furioso cant take any ranged weapons if it does. Also the Furioso does not get black rage or any other special rules.

It is very wonky and I hope it gets a FAQ. There would be zero reason to EVER take a Furioso over a normal dreadnaught. For his points differences I would just buy a chaplain to allow rerolls for failed attacks.

I am not sure where you're getting a 110 point Dreadnought. The Dreadnought pays 40 points for it's power fist and then has to buy another ranged weapon. The DCCW is only free for the Ironclad, because (like the Furioso) it's base cost is adjusted for the DCCW. At minimum, a Dreadnought comes in at around 131 points if I'm reading it correctly, as you have to buy at least a crappy Assault cannon. If you take the Lascannon (50pts) the points even out.