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The Contemptor is also quite a bit cheaper and has a 5++ invul and has 10 wounds... hits with as many attacks[as the Furioso] but it has no rerolls, unless your HQ is nearby.

@MechaEmperor700 - You are WAY overstating the 2" extra move on a CC only dread, the magna-grapple only works against vehicles also.

 Gunzhard wrote:
The Contemptor is also quite a bit cheaper and has a 5++ invul and has 10 wounds... hits with as many attacks[as the Furioso] but it has no rerolls, unless your HQ is nearby.

@MechaEmperor700 - You are WAY overstating the 2" extra move on a CC only dread, and you totally misread the math on the str4 weapons - badly. It's not only 2 wounds per 40 shots difference, it's HALF.

See this is where semantics can sway an argument one way or another. Saying that "T8 takes half the amount of wounds from S4 weapons than T7" sounds like it's a noticeable difference until you do the math and realize it takes a ridiculous amount of shots for that "half" to actually matter. 2 wounds on a T8 is certainly half of 4 wounds on a T7, but to get there you needed 40 shots. Which means it takes 80 S4 shots to take down a T7 model with 8 wounds compared to 160 shots to take down a T8 model. However, with a game lasting 6 turns and much more powerful weapons at a player's disposal, who would ever devote 80 bolter shots to take down a single Furioso Dreadnought when shooting it with four lascannons (which makes no difference between the two) is much more efficient? Hence why if this ever happens then "something has gone horribly wrong".

As for the 2" movement, the devs certainly seems to think that's a big deal. And even in the comparison, it isn't that big either. Let me reiterate; the point difference between a CC Ironclad and a Furioso is a mere 2-6 points! For a 25% increase in movement and 1 less point of toughness.

And just in case the OP misses this AGAIN:

Yes, the Furioso has it's weapon cost worked into it's base cost. Whether or not the FINAL cost is balanced or not is completely up in the air, as this debate has shown.

 Gunzhard wrote:
The Contemptor is also quite a bit cheaper and has a 5++ invul and has 10 wounds... hits with as many attacks[as the Furioso] but it has no rerolls, unless your HQ is nearby.

@MechaEmperor700 - You are WAY overstating the 2" extra move on a CC only dread, the magna-grapple only works against vehicles also.

Well a contemptor also degrades which kinda sucks.

Semantics is saying "25% increase in movement" - meaning 2 inches on a 4x6 foot table... or how the LESS options of the Furioso in your reasoning is worth more than the MORE options and better toughness of the IronClad.

The points are not remotely close to correct. If the "25% increase in movement" is worth that many points, how much should an extra 3" of movement be worth in your opinion?

 Desubot wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
The Contemptor is also quite a bit cheaper and has a 5++ invul and has 10 wounds... hits with as many attacks[as the Furioso] but it has no rerolls, unless your HQ is nearby.

@MechaEmperor700 - You are WAY overstating the 2" extra move on a CC only dread, the magna-grapple only works against vehicles also.

Well a contemptor also degrades which kinda sucks.

But it has 10 wounds and a 5++ invul! ...it is also shooting and assaulting better than the Furioso until it finally degrades to 5 wounds down, and it also has the added option of shooting ranged weapons the entire journey into assault range or just avoiding assault all together and still being useful... and it moves 9".

I should point out also that at it's final degrade step - the Furioso would already be dead, and it's middle step, except movement, it's exactly the same as the Furioso...

I don't want to conflate multiple topics here. The ironclad may be less in cost because of its movement. It just depends on how much GW values movement.

My discussion is about the standard dreadnaught and the furioso dreadnaught which have the same stat line. However, the Furioso dreadnaught costs 52-points more than the standard dreadnaught. In addition, the Furioso dreadnaught gets none of the BA special abilties.

This makes no sense at all. There is zero justification for this oversight. I believe it must be an error or there is something I am missing. The cost of the weapons to include close combat weapons for both dreadnaught are exactly the same.

The better question can anyone please tell me if they can come up with a reason why it is worth 62-points (almost a 65% points hike) to have the ability to reroll 4 hit rolls? A base chaplain gives the same benifit to all units within 6" of him for only 10-points more.

The base Chaplain gives it to everyone within 6" not just the dread too! ...also if movement is worth so much - explain the Contemptor.

Do their power levels match, or are they also lopsided?

 Elbows wrote:
Do their power levels match, or are they also lopsided?

dreadnought 133 pl7 comes with assault cannon arm and 1 storm bolter

Furioso 191 Pl 10 two furioso power fists with a melta and a storm bolter

only differences so far. +2 move, rerolls all to hit rolls when equipped with two furious power fists and add 2 to the charge against vehicles.

 Elbows wrote:
Do their power levels match, or are they also lopsided?

Power-level 10 vs Power-level 7.

It all just makes no sense and I am wracking my brain trying to understand.

broxus wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Do their power levels match, or are they also lopsided?

Power-level 10 vs Power-level 7.

It all just makes no sense and I am wracking my brain trying to understand.

you are paying for the movement and consistency in combat.

also with the melta, and the magna crapple it looks pretty clear its intended to be an anti tank platform.

Remember all those are options you have to pay for you don't get them for free. They do not come in that included cost and all have draw backs for taking them. So they would not be included into the cost difference. I guess the only thing is you pay an extra 52-pts (65% points hike) to gain 2" of movement. That is the only reason.

I was thinking of starting a Blood Angels army but this silly points cost really has put me off. If I had to take them I would take the Death Company Dreadnaught for 6 pts more which give it an extra attack when charging and a 6+ invulnerable save.

This comes back around to the general dysfunction of walking CC dreads. They have literally never been a good option in any edition (unless you're playing against hoards).

Tanks have range and stay far away. If you're willing to add MORE cost (the stormraven) now you can do some damage. The cheaper shooty dread will however do more, without adding a stormraven.

And in an army (space marines) where it's SO easy to get rerolls I don't see how this is justified, especially when measured against the other dreads (Contemptor or Ironclad).

broxus wrote:
Remember all those are options you have to pay for you don't get them for free. They do not come in that included cost and all have draw backs for taking them. So they would not be included into the cost difference. I guess the only thing is you pay an extra 52-pts (65% points hike) to gain 2" of movement. That is the only reason.

I was thinking of starting a Blood Angels army but this silly points cost really has put me off. If I had to take them I would take the Death Company Dreadnaught for 6 pts more which give it an extra attack when charging and a 6+ invulnerable save.

Sent you a PM with a breakdown of everything.

As for the Blood Angels thing, I would advise against dreadnoughts in general (despite the fact that I own 4 Blood Angels Dreadnoughts). It's so much more fun to run DC in Fast Rhinos (at least I hope that's still the case). Plus there's a better close-range deathdealer in the form of the Baal Predator.

broxus wrote:
Remember all those are options you have to pay for you don't get them for free. They do not come in that included cost and all have draw backs for taking them. So they would not be included into the cost difference. I guess the only thing is you pay an extra 52-pts (65% points hike) to gain 2" of movement. That is the only reason.

I was thinking of starting a Blood Angels army but this silly points cost really has put me off. If I had to take them I would take the Death Company Dreadnaught for 6 pts more which give it an extra attack when charging and a 6+ invulnerable save.

All the points i listed was everything you had to take. so i would think i remembered.

He's still talking about the base cost, not the final one apparently.

Yes the base cost is all that is important really. Since there are multiple ways to build these guys and all weapons cost the same for everyone. For example I could replace the melta gun with a heavy flamer which takes away that variance. Overall you are paying 52-pts for +2" movement. I really is silly that they priced it at that point, but what are you going to do other than vote with your wallet.

Like I keep saying, yes they do compensate for the weapon costs in the base cost. This is why Normal Terminators cost 25 points while Assault Terminators cost something like 31 even though they have the same stats; the weapons are different.

This is like the fifth time I had to say this.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He's still talking about the base cost, not the final one apparently.

eh its close enough.

its a 58 point difference from minimum equipment dreads.

Honestly iv played a few games with them. even ironclads get punked from lascannons if they are out in the open and walking. i found them far far better as a back field deturant to jetbike turbo boosters and deepstrikers. its not the fast pace army that Blood angles might like but thats what dreads do generally.

this one can reliably walk up and charge in, the others can be doing fire support while sitting in the back line. i need to check what BA characters can hand out vs normal marines. if there may be other oppertunity costs that i am missing. edit (nope its a big meh)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Like I keep saying, yes they do compensate for the weapon costs in the base cost. This is why Normal Terminators cost 25 points while Assault Terminators cost something like 31 even though they have the same stats; the weapons are different.

This is like the fifth time I had to say this.

...Sort of. The unit costs appear to eat a portion of the weapon costs so they can make weapons cost more or less on different units while still having a flat cost in the 'costs' table to make addition a little easier for us; the Assault Terminator in the example, for instance, is 31pts because the designers thought he should be paying 18pts for his lightning claws, rather than the 13pts a Vanguard Veteran is paying, so instead of making him 26pts as a naked Terminator and making him pay 18pts for the lightning claws the 5pts got shifted into his base cost, so he's 31pts, and they can keep the cost of Lightning Claws a fixed 13pts.

At least that's the best explanation I've been able to come up with. It still doesn't explain what the f*** is going on with Dire Avengers, but it's something.

I'm in the mind that the guy who wrote the DA thought there would be a separate entry for the Avenger Shuriken Catapult separate from the Autarch one and just never got the memo.

 Desubot wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He's still talking about the base cost, not the final one apparently.

eh its close enough.

its a 58 point difference from minimum equipment dreads.

Honestly iv played a few games with them. even ironclads get punked from lascannons if they are out in the open and walking. i found them far far better as a back field deturant to jetbike turbo boosters and deepstrikers. its not the fast pace army that Blood angles might like but thats what dreads do generally.

this one can reliably walk up and charge in, the others can be doing fire support while sitting in the back line. i need to check what BA characters can hand out vs normal marines. if there may be other oppertunity costs that i am missing. edit (nope its a big meh)

No 58 points is not "close enough" and is VASTLY diffrent. The Furioso an absolutely terrible value and it makes it unplayable in any competitive setting. Not having any ranged weapons make it already a very difficult unit to use. If I decide to play blood angels I will obviously just use a normal dreadnaught for obvious reasons.

I will put those extra points towards a Stormraven or chaplain to actually do something of value.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm in the mind that the guy who wrote the DA thought there would be a separate entry for the Avenger Shuriken Catapult separate from the Autarch one and just never got the memo.

It's a sensible explanation. It seems to me that the most straightforward explanation for the Furioso's cost is that the cost of the Dreadnaught was written by someone who assumed that the fists were included and the cost of the fists was written by someone who assumed they weren't, and they didn't compare notes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm in the mind that the guy who wrote the DA thought there would be a separate entry for the Avenger Shuriken Catapult separate from the Autarch one and just never got the memo.

It's a sensible explanation. It seems to me that the most straightforward explanation for the Furioso's cost is that the cost of the Dreadnaught was written by someone who assumed that the fists were included and the cost of the fists was written by someone who assumed they weren't, and they didn't compare notes.

Very likely the case IMHO.

broxus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
He's still talking about the base cost, not the final one apparently.

eh its close enough.

its a 58 point difference from minimum equipment dreads.

Honestly iv played a few games with them. even ironclads get punked from lascannons if they are out in the open and walking. i found them far far better as a back field deturant to jetbike turbo boosters and deepstrikers. its not the fast pace army that Blood angles might like but thats what dreads do generally.

this one can reliably walk up and charge in, the others can be doing fire support while sitting in the back line. i need to check what BA characters can hand out vs normal marines. if there may be other oppertunity costs that i am missing. edit (nope its a big meh)

No 58 points is not "close enough" and is VASTLY diffrent. The Furioso an absolutely terrible value and it makes it unplayable in any competitive setting. Not having any ranged weapons make it already a very difficult unit to use. If I decide to play blood angels I will obviously just use a normal dreadnaught for obvious reasons.

I will put those extra points towards a Stormraven or chaplain to actually do something of value.

Not what i meant by close enough.

you say 52, i added everything and the difference is 58

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm in the mind that the guy who wrote the DA thought there would be a separate entry for the Avenger Shuriken Catapult separate from the Autarch one and just never got the memo.

It's a sensible explanation. It seems to me that the most straightforward explanation for the Furioso's cost is that the cost of the Dreadnaught was written by someone who assumed that the fists were included and the cost of the fists was written by someone who assumed they weren't, and they didn't compare notes.

I don't think it's the case with the Furioso, since the Ironclad (the comparable CC Dread) has a similar cost (as all of that bickering showed). The Ork Deff Dread has a similar cost if you kit him out for pure melee (surprisingly all of the range weapons, except the Skorcha, cost less than an additional Dred Klaw).

I think the dev team just overvalued dedicated CC dreads a bit too much.

And I'll assume there is no extraneous rules/units which affect the Furioso (I don't have any of the info for Space Marine stuff).

No Blood Angel's Army-Wide rules which impact the Furioso? No special transport options for him? He's not available in a different slot (like Elite instead of Heavy Support) etc.? No special Blood Angel characters who would give him a crazy buff if nearby, etc? He can't be taken as a troops choice or anything bizarre?

Realistically none of that outside of Army-Wide special rules should impact his cost.

 Desubot wrote:

broxus wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Do their power levels match, or are they also lopsided?

Power-level 10 vs Power-level 7.

It all just makes no sense and I am wracking my brain trying to understand.

you are paying for the movement and consistency in combat.

also with the melta, and the magna crapple it looks pretty clear its intended to be an anti tank platform.

My suspicion is that the rerolls are key.
Gw and testers must heavily weight reliable damage to highly tough opponents
plus the cost of basic loadout again with meltagun reliable high toughness damage
which leads to large points hike.

Plus there is unlikely to be a new furioso dread model...

The Contemptor hitting on a 2+ in shooting and in close-combat I'd say is pretty reliable... even after it degrades it still hits as well as the Furioso, by its final step of degrade the Furioso would be dead and the Contemptor is still taking swings/shots.

Not to mention the faster speed (9"), 10 wounds, 5++ invulnerable save and cheaper cost. It also has really good shooty options.

 Elbows wrote:
And I'll assume there is no extraneous rules/units which affect the Furioso (I don't have any of the info for Space Marine stuff).

No Blood Angel's Army-Wide rules which impact the Furioso? No special transport options for him? He's not available in a different slot (like Elite instead of Heavy Support) etc.? No special Blood Angel characters who would give him a crazy buff if nearby, etc? He can't be taken as a troops choice or anything bizarre?

Realistically none of that outside of Army-Wide special rules should impact his cost.

No special rules at all or the Furioso. In addition, if you take a gun and a fist, you dont get the rerolls. You literally just pay more points (52+ pts)for the furioso name and 2" of movement.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Yes indeed. Simply HAVING options does warrant a price increase; if it didn't why bother taking the thing with LESS options ever? And again, it's not a massive increase;

Flawed logic. Price should reflect ABILITIES of model. IF you have 2 different dreads with same kit and same stats they should cost more. Especially within same army. Otherwise why take more expensive one? You might just as well remove the non-unique options since only idiots and newbies would use that with anything else. For other choices you would take the cheaper one.