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 Shadenuat wrote:
Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.

They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.

Warp Spiders have Fly and a 7+4D6 movement, if they use their jump generators... so let's not paint them out to be too bad here.

I happen to agree with you on windriders though. Still good, just not undercosted and game breaking anymore.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Warp Spiders have Fly and a 7+4D6 movement, if they use their jump generators... so let's not paint them out to be too bad here.

I happen to agree with you on windriders though. Still good, just not undercosted and game breaking anymore.

Spiders gain Fly only for 1 phase, so them able to shoot after Fall Back is a FAQ material for now.
Won't say Spiders are "bad" either, but their move is random and as I played both units together I thought that changing Spiders to another Windrider unit would be so much better.

Lack of Deep Strike also gives me butthurt and "*f eldar bias" moments since units with plasma, monoliths, name-whatever with lots of shots and good AP can DS, but Warp Spiders with their '12 inch guns can't DS because derp.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.

They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.

I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range. Yes, they're overpowered, but note that a scion command squad (64 points and 1 order from a 40 point tempestor) expects to kill 5 Windriders (worth a bit over 150 points) in one volley -- even a 10-man Troops squad makes back all of their points in a single volley not even counting the lasguns. Artillery tends to make back about half its points in a single turn of shooting at them. Space Marine flyers with twin assault cannons do a number on them. Celestine can move 24" and charge them, wiping out a whole squad of 3 more often than not (and heavy flamering another). So that's like half of the armies in the game.

Other Eldar just thank you for the free points. A Hemlock expects to kill more than 3 Windriders with its guns alone. A Razorwing Jetfighter with disintegrator cannons expects to make back almost all of its points in a single round of shooting at Windriders. The Tantalus is also armed with D2 weapons, and looks like an easy choice for many lists if people have the model. Tau similarly have a bunch of fast or deep striking weapons good for killing Windriders. Chaos has easy access to some very fast CC, including Heldrakes who come with Baleflamers. Tyranids are likewise going to be able to get at the Windriders very quickly once they come into range. I guess Windriders might not be suicidal against Orks and some Necron lists?

Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility? About 50% more firepower per point than what your basic transport provides.

So i did a bunch of maths... comparing Shurikan cannons, Twin catapults, and Splinter Cannons (corsair option) on bikes.

I found it extremely interesting that at T3 the catapult has a slight advantage.. at T4.. the Shurikan cannon has a slight advantage.. but basically the Splintercannon is more consistent and better the rest of the time.

Even looking at vehicles. Assuming most are around T5+ The splinter cannons start doing relatively the same amount of wounds .9 vs 1-1.3 on average.

This comparison was done with 3+ saves. Shurikans take the cake at 2+ saves, and Splinter weapons only get better the worse the save.

Anyway.. thought I would share. May try some Corsair Splinter Bikes next game in place of windriders.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range.

A truck coming down the road and hitting me with a case full of bikes would also end things quickly - so might prepare beforehand and either lay down and die or start collecting a battalion of Wave Serpents.

Sure, your breakdown is correct from math, but it's also quite anecdotal and sporthammer biased. We're not talking about whole army consisting of nothing but Windriders, and taking down dangerous parts of enemy army compared to your own is the basics of the tactics, eh?

But let's break it down per examples:
- Scions. I assume it's DS so the problem is screening. But let's not forget that every time a biker unit would be wiped, another near it would SfD and shoot, possible with split fire, somewhat bringing the points of a lost unit back.
- Artillery, not sure which one exactly you mean.
- SM flyers, this one is interesting - Strafing Run doesn't affect units with Fly, so even in Hover some of them hit on 3's and 4's depending if they moved or not.
TBH, I am more worried with Razorbacks with Twin AC for 100 pts.
- Celestine - Sisters are the rarest army in existence. Of course you can just add her to any army, but that's just 1 character - you won't meet 10 Celestines.
- Hemlock's range is '16-18. If he goes straight on to get bikes, he's in my threat range. He can Smite, but we can Deny in '24 with a re-roll.
- Tantalus - 350 pts for one vehicle. Possibly a huge squad of bikes dead in a turn, so that's just about who gets to go first and luck.
- Tau don't really have anything. I play against them since 2008 and best they have are Vespids and Hazard suits. Vespids are not that shooty, Hazards are expensive, just like Crisis suits are nowadays.
- Chaos, Helldrakes are nothing. Already played against Leviathans - Butcher cannons+Warpflamers wound on 2+, D2, and mortal wounds, and -2 morale so even with Farseer +1 Ld that's 4-6 bikes dead a turn. Terrific but managed to outshoot them before they killed me. Wave Serpents with Dragons are excellent for distraction since D2 is pretty worthless against Wave Serpents.

Nyds, Orks&Necrons haven't played yet against them.

Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility?

Oh come on. "Incredible Fragility" is cultists/firewarriors. Two wounds with 4+ and T4 is better than most of our aspect warriors. For example, it's a price of 2 Banshees.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, just about every Imperial army is going to have some way of knocking them down very easily from well outside their range.

A truck coming down the road and hitting me with a case full of bikes would also end things quickly - so might prepare beforehand and either lay down and die or start collecting a battalion of Wave Serpents.

Sure, your breakdown is correct from math, but it's also quite anecdotal and sporthammer biased. We're not talking about whole army consisting of nothing but Windriders, and taking down dangerous parts of enemy army compared to your own is the basics of the tactics, eh?

But let's break it down per examples:
- Scions. I assume it's DS so the problem is screening. But let's not forget that every time a biker unit would be wiped, another near it would SfD and shoot, possible with split fire, somewhat bringing the points of a lost unit back.
- Artillery, not sure which one exactly you mean.
- SM flyers, this one is interesting - Strafing Run doesn't affect units with Fly, so even in Hover some of them hit on 3's and 4's depending if they moved or not.
TBH, I am more worried with Razorbacks with Twin AC for 100 pts.
- Celestine - Sisters are the rarest army in existence. Of course you can just add her to any army, but that's just 1 character - you won't meet 10 Celestines.
- Hemlock's range is '16-18. If he goes straight on to get bikes, he's in my threat range. He can Smite, but we can Deny in '24 with a re-roll.
- Tantalus - 350 pts for one vehicle. Possibly a huge squad of bikes dead in a turn, so that's just about who gets to go first and luck.
- Tau don't really have anything. I play against them since 2008 and best they have are Vespids and Hazard suits. Vespids are not that shooty, Hazards are expensive, just like Crisis suits are nowadays.
- Chaos, Helldrakes are nothing. Already played against Leviathans - Butcher cannons+Warpflamers wound on 2+, D2, and mortal wounds, and -2 morale so even with Farseer +1 Ld that's 4-6 bikes dead a turn. Terrific but managed to outshoot them before they killed me. Wave Serpents with Dragons are excellent for distraction since D2 is pretty worthless against Wave Serpents.

Nyds, Orks&Necrons haven't played yet against them.

Meanwhile what are you getting out of your Windriders in exchange for this incredible fragility?

Oh come on. "Incredible Fragility" is cultists/firewarriors. Two wounds with 4+ and T4 is better than most of our aspect warriors. For example, it's a price of 2 Banshees.

To start from the end real quick: So... are you taking Banshees on foot? I mean, yes, they seem really fragile to me. I would probably always put them in a Serpent. I don't think they're particularly good even then, but I would certainly argue that footslogging Banshees are about as bad of a choice as Windriders. Also you're just completely ignoring that having two wounds makes you twice as vulnerable to lots of weapons that are already pretty decent against T4 4+.

Anyway, I sort of feel like yours is the analysis which is completely ignoring how this stuff actually plays out on the table. I went over a bunch of units that are basically going to have justified their inclusion in a list if they get to attack Windriders once and which it's pretty much impossible to keep your Windriders safe from while still getting any use out of them. Like, yeah, if your whole army is Windriders then a whole bunch of other units are also great against them, but I'm assuming you bring only a few units of them and I'm pointing out that almost every decent army you go up against is going to have the tools to punish you for that.

Your responses largely don't make sense. You can't really screen a unit from Deep Strikers when the unit you're trying to protect has 24" guns, and a big part of the appeal of Windriders in the first place is that they're very fast and can go off and do their own thing. At some point it's going to be vulnerable unless it's right in the middle of a big blob of cheap and durable screeners, many of which are going to have to be within 24" of lots of the enemy.

By artillery I meant something like a Manticore. Basilisks too but they're not quite as good.

Only one of the SM flyers gets a "strafing run" type ability. The other light flyer has "interceptor" and generally more firepower anyway -- it kills a lot of bikes. The Stormraven doesn't really want to shoot everything at the bikes -- it probably has a better target for its Lascannons -- but depending on loadout it can be quite scary. The two hurricane bolters it can take just on top of everything else are pretty threatening. I left off Razorbacks because they don't offer as much of a guaranteed attack on Windriders. IME it's reasonably possible to mostly avoid them with similar units. But yes, obviously if the enemy has several Razorbacks protecting everything you'd want to shoot at with the bikes then they're even worse than I've been saying.

For the xenos, you just sort of talk like you're willing to tank the hits on the Windriders because it means you get to counter-attack. That's terrible strategy. First, and once again, these units are often coming close to justifying their inclusion in the enemy's list with one attack. For example, that 350 point Tantalus expects to wipe out two 3-man squads of Windriders in one volley (it actually expects to deal more damage than this but is limited by the small size of the squads -- if you have big squads then it expects to kill 8 Windriders). That's crazy. That's 55% of its cost in one round from up to 36" away, and with the Tantalus a lot of what you're paying for is its being an open-topped transport. What are you actually using to take down the Tantalus or Hemlock or Heldrake? Chances are -- and if your opponent is decent almost certainly -- you're using more than twice their cost in units. Those are units that won't be attacking the rest of your opponent's army. But, regardless, what was even the point of having the Windriders instead of something that wasn't going to get killed so easily? If you'd shelled out for a Wave Serpent it would still be on its first profile. Shining Spears are more durable per point against all of this stuff except for assault cannons (where they're only equally vulnerable), and are significantly more threatening.

Finally, a point about SfD: it doesn't work all that well for long-range shooty units anymore. Everyone can split fire. It's really hard now to make sure that when one unit of Windriders dies, there's another with 3 bikes left which is getting to shoot. Right? Almost everything I mentioned is doing its damage either with several guns or from far away. And, regardless, you don't even get that much use out of it with 3-man Windrider units because they just don't have that much firepower. Like, 10 Guardians are going to shoot better against literally everything, in most cases by a wide margin. Again, the damage output is on par with our basic transport, and while Wave Serpents are great mostly it's their durability that's making them great -- you'd prefer a twin assault cannon to all three shuriken cannons.

I don't know. I'm pretty baffled at you having used bikes in 8th edition games and finding them to be fine. I have not used them myself but I've run up against them a couple times, along with similar units from other factions (sometimes bikes, but also just in general low-toughness multi-wound models without invulnerable saves). These are games that often end with a concession on turn 1 or 2 because their list is full of soft targets that aren't even that strong offensively. My impression has been that people might mistakenly think these units are decent but end up dropping them after a couple games when it becomes very apparent that they end up dying to multi-damage weapons without doing much.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Windriders can bring most shuriken cannons for their points compared to other units. I played 3 games with Saim Hann already and I don't see why they are "bad". They gained increased threat range, they can proc SfD, and can fall back from melee and shoot. They're pretty excellent. D2 spam is a counter match up for them but that's something to overcome as you can't do much about it.

They're better than Warp Spiders by far because '24 range&Fly is just better.

Except you missed out two of the big defensive bonuses on warp spiders. Their -1 to hit and the fact that as infantry they can more easily get cover saves.

With several conceal options that can keep up with the warp spiders they are often being hit on 5s with a 2+ save from being in cover. That makes them super resilient against small arms fire and the bigger anti infantry weapons will still have a harder time killing them then the bikes. And often the higher ap stuff deals multiple wounds which negates the extra wound per model of the jetbikes.

So while the damage output of a comparative jetbike squad to the warp spiders might be slightly higher, the spiders are much more resilient and almost as manouverable, tho a bit less reliably so.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So i did a bunch of maths... comparing Shurikan cannons, Twin catapults, and Splinter Cannons (corsair option) on bikes.

I found it extremely interesting that at T3 the catapult has a slight advantage.. at T4.. the Shurikan cannon has a slight advantage.. but basically the Splintercannon is more consistent and better the rest of the time.

Even looking at vehicles. Assuming most are around T5+ The splinter cannons start doing relatively the same amount of wounds .9 vs 1-1.3 on average.

This comparison was done with 3+ saves. Shurikans take the cake at 2+ saves, and Splinter weapons only get better the worse the save.

Anyway.. thought I would share. May try some Corsair Splinter Bikes next game in place of windriders.

The cannon has twice the range though. Which makes it the better choice. If their ranged were equal - I'd take the catapults every time because their damage really comes from rolling that 6.

Forgot about Razorwing - I think most players would run it with Lances since it turns it into underpriced Void Raven.

To start from the end real quick: So... are you taking Banshees on foot?

Banshees will be on foot after their first disembark. Windriders don't have to wait a turn to start doing damage.

Anyway, I sort of feel like yours is the analysis which is completely ignoring how this stuff actually plays out on the table.

Well, yours is the analysis without actual experience with Windriders in 8th? Since 8th only came out, there's bound to be some couch wisdom.

Only one of the SM flyers gets a "strafing run" type ability.

There's also Nephilim, etc.

Shining Spears are more durable per point against all of this stuff except for assault cannons (where they're only equally vulnerable), and are significantly more threatening.

I played a squad of 8. I won't say they are that more durable. Fortuned, they can withstand some firepower, but they need at least a turn to get into actual melee. At that point I lost 5 of them to D2 weapons... which, TBH, allowed my other 16 windriders to do damage. Windriders would put out more shots for that price. I am not sure though, it requires more playtesting. It's definitely not a Jetcouncil from 4th.

I wouldn't say I want to "tank" anything with Windriders. If anything, I want to go first and do as much damage as possible before jetbikes collapse. But I play bikes for a long time (since 4th edition Dex, when they were 76 pts per 1 shuriken cannon hitting on 4s), and I am just used to a) things being worse and b) jetbikes dying. Which is why your "you're playing suicidal army" comes out as somewhat funny to me.

Not trying to appeal to anything here, though. Maybe you're correct and there is no place for them in any sort of hardcore meta. But just as a unit that can dish out good damage and features good mobility? I can't call them "bad". If they are "bad", then 99% of rest of Craftworld 'dex is completely unplayable.

I am kinda wondering - are you proposing running an all-bike army made out of just Shining Spears as an alternative then?

Wyldcarde wrote:
Except you missed out two of the big defensive bonuses on warp spiders. Their -1 to hit and the fact that as infantry they can more easily get cover saves.

It's true but I found it to be not easy to maneuver around the table so Spiders would shoot enemy unit while being in cover - with enemy units camping on their own terrain pieces, and terrain itself generally set 12 or more apart on the table.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, if you want to talk optimal we've got to start looking at the Revenant Titan and Vampire Hunter.

Of course, you probably don't really want to be taking three double starcannon or pulse laser light vehicles -- that's a lot of points on pretty fragile bodies. I think you probably want to mostly just use WotP to give an extra shooting phase to units that you're already happy bringing. Like a shooty Wraithknight if you're into that, or a Crimson Hunter. A Hunter is a perfectly good unit by itself and basically has 4 bright lances.

I have been using word of the Phoenix and reroll ones or guide on my WK to great success taking land raiders turn one or las predators before they could hurt me.

Another great unit for this are shadow spectres. Though it is harder to keep up, guide and word of the Phoenix on them means a lot of S6 dakka

When thinking about units for Ynnari I always ask myself what I can get from them should I soulburst with them.
This is why I think windriders can work full shuricannon if taken in not-MSU style, like 6man squads. 80% of my soulburst should come from my enemy or WotP.
• Spears are very good, being both CC and shooting unit, more value of choice from Soulburst
• WR kinda good if taken in big squads. Only shooting for them, CC is awful
• Skyweavers benefit a lot from the Rising Crescendo, so taking it away can be like not ideal. They're also on the same role of Spears, but those do their work in a slightly better way IMHO (Weavers have shuricannons, SS hit harder in CC helping fulfilling the CC-shoot role better)
• Reavers: not an amazed fan. From my point of viewing the army they're not enough elite to be part of. Just IMHO ofc.

For now my options to choose from are: Spiders, Spears, Wraithguards, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons, Hellions, Dark Reapers, all with the help of some single Razorwing flocks to soak some overwatch and die horribly granting me whatever bonus I'm in need of in that moment.

Just remember that in this edition everyone shoots the nuts and kicks amazingly in CC, so a bunch of models are removed each turn. Either going mass OR professionally elite is my go to for now, mixes are easily wiped out sooner than later.

I still like 3-4 man units of wind riders - but it depends on enemy composition. If they have a bunch of small units - youllhave an easier time getting soul bursts with small units that can split out and get within 7" of small units. Like land speeders - or 5 man troop squads. I usually have 2 core beast units that I use to do most the heavy hitting though. 2 unit D scythe WG.

So I am playing harlequins based ynnari with Yvraine and a shadow seer. They have to run on foot to use there powers so I have been using a large troupe of harlequins to screen them. Between the Shadowseer buff and the 4++ save they are actually pretty tough, but they are pretty expensive for a screening unit. I have been looking at razorwing flocks. For 7 points you get 4 wounds. They are only T2 with no save but it's still 7pts for 4 wounds. With a beast master and +2ld drugs they get 9 ld (. 10 ld if you pick the +1ld warlord trait. ) So they won't fly away. They are also fast enough to flock around your slower psychers and reposition.

Thought?

Single models like razorwing flocks never suffer morale, as they are the only member of the squad. They exist just to die in a way that you see fit. So no beastmaster needed for that.

Besides that, of course using Harlequins to screen anything is an awful idea, they cost too much. I'd have my doubts about having them walk - without rising crescendo - instead of being on a Starweaver even.

 Bloodshade wrote:
Single models like razorwing flocks never suffer morale, as they are the only member of the squad. They exist just to die in a way that you see fit. So no beastmaster needed for that.

Besides that, of course using Harlequins to screen anything is an awful idea, they cost too much. I'd have my doubts about having them walk - without rising crescendo - instead of being on a Starweaver even.

so the razorwing would be in flocks of 12 to avoid having too many drops and keep the possibility of going first. I am actually thinking of two big flocks of 12. 168 pts for 48 wounds that the opponent has to try to get through before they can try and get your Shadowseer and Yvraine. The flocks also can do some damage.

Tried Warp Spiders today again against Necrons on 2000 pts.

Ugh.

Shoot enemy flank full of swarm models and basically stand there since no jumping back - instant death. (although I did use their death to make another unit fall back from melee and make nekrons fail their charge basically).
Probably should have went MSU there.
12' inch guns without jump in assault. GW please givez back 2d6 jump in assault.

Lost 9 bikes from 1 shooting phase of Tesla Immortals. Although, that was my mistake since there were only 2 of these units and I killed 1 turn 1, so should have just moved away from their shooting range. On 1500 I managed to lose only 5 since I focused down things able to harm them right away. So in lower points games due to going first and activating berserk mode I manage so far to make shuriken bikes pay their points back. On 2000+ I even begin to wonder about putting scaters on them since at least that would allow me to be far away from some targets.

Thinking to put Spiders on a shelf unless it's 1000 pts game or so.

Also Quantium Shielding, yay for my Fire Dragons rolling more and thus doing less damage : > )

Did spiders really do so poorly?
That's bad. In theory they should do fine with the rending on Necron's infantries. We have better weapons against swarms, I guess.

Yay for the quantum. Guess it's time for professional low-rollers (like me LUL) to shine, then

 lambsandlions wrote:
so the razorwing would be in flocks of 12 to avoid having too many drops and keep the possibility of going first. I am actually thinking of two big flocks of 12. 168 pts for 48 wounds that the opponent has to try to get through before they can try and get your Shadowseer and Yvraine. The flocks also can do some damage.

The Wound per point ratio is fine. But i don't know if this is going to work just because they're cheap. Also, I'm not sold on the whole concept to field them in order to protect characters that almost always protect themselves just not being the closest...
Try it up, but unless you are facing something very specific for its surgical precision in taking down characters, the risk is to field two big units that are mostly defensive and "fragile" while they have little chance of causing proper damage (even with full-sized 96 attacks you're causing 3,5 W to PA, 1,7 on most other more resilient targets like vehicles).

It's not that Spiders are not effective with their shooting by point, it's just they're basically 1 shot gun as a unit.

TBH as a big fan of our Fast Attack, the design of new eldar FA baffles me. Maybe not put 12 rapid guns on hawks, on spiders, don't make scatter laser expensive that much and shining spears are just melee? Maybe give glass cannons something that does NOT require to just berserk into enemy, or at least assault move? No? Neh? Well ok...

Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?
Mine have proven fine but then again the army they go in wants to keep the enemy at that 12 inch range, and are backed up by farseers. So they aren't necessarily standing 12 inches from the enemy on their own as the biggest, juiciest target? And there's nothing wrong with just charging them in to combat. Their 3+ armour holds up well and even if the enemy falls back to shoot them it is 1 less unit shooting. If they stay in combat they can warp jump away and continue their shooting.

And shining spears shoot just fine. 4 Str 4 and a strength 6 shot per model stacks up fast. Once again short range tho.

And both units can still hit and run but just have to actually kill a unit first. So have to work for it.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?

What would you have picked between 36+ scarab bases carpet and Immortals in cover?
I guess I could try just holding them somewhere around cover for a turn or two, waiting. But there are things that can kill spiders in cover too. And I'm not sure that just waiting out their shooting phases would help them bring their points back.

Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?

Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.

Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.

Caederes wrote:
Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?

Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.

Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.

It was never the way to go, nor it is. Yes it is cheaper, but you lose 4 anti tanks shoots to just gain a little bit more damage in melé, not worth it. With WotP you want to be shooting twince at least the 2 first turns. With how ap and cover works now, the shield is not really with it and it's quite expensive.

I have successfully taken land raiders in turn q twice now, and if the enemy didn't have one, I could easily take another 2 tanks turn one, and with wave serpents coming ur way with fire dragons and d scythes and a hemlock, it's not such an obvious thing to shoot him, which means turn 2 you shoot twice again and assault

 Shadenuat wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
Seems like you picked the wrong target for the warp spiders?

What would you have picked between 36+ scarab bases carpet and Immortals in cover?
I guess I could try just holding them somewhere around cover for a turn or two, waiting. But there are things that can kill spiders in cover too. And I'm not sure that just waiting out their shooting phases would help them bring their points back.

The immortals. Go for the 6 to wound for ap -4 and should cut into the unit. Especially if doomed. Then charge the unit.
But there are a myriad of choices that have gone before that to lead you to where you are that you could make differently to make them more effective. And as I said if they are going in by themselves then they are obviously not going to do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caederes wrote:
Am I right in thinking the Wraithknight doesn't seem as good as an Imperial Knight at first glance but gets better support from psychic powers to make up the difference? What weapons are people gravitating towards? It seems like sword and board is still the way to go for the price and the near mandatory shield, then probably Starcannons on the shoulders?

Lastly, is there a concrete wording on Word of the Phoenix affecting units without Strength from Death? Obviously the Wraithcannon build becomes a lot more attractive as a ranged assassin if that power works on it. The Suncannon build might be worthwhile at that point as well when paired with Guide and Doom, I've always loved the look of that build.

Cheers for any input....but final question, how has the Yncarne performed for you guys? I can see the merits of taking the Avatar of Khaine (i.e. non-Ynnari) over him but he does seem like at the very least he'd be super hard to deal with for some armies.

I agree with the previous comment. Sword and shield is the worst as you are removing your expensive model from a phase.
I prefer shield and suncannon. Trade a bit of damage potential against high end models for the extra survivability of the 5+ invul. The sword is almost not needed as the stomp is better in all circumstances except for the high toughness targets. Even then the extra attacks from the stomp keep the wounds ticking over. Then usually just have a couple of shuriken cannons on the shoulders. Obviously starcannons are the better option but then you are paying 600 points for the model...

kaintxu wrote:

It was never the way to go, nor it is. Yes it is cheaper, but you lose 4 anti tanks shoots to just gain a little bit more damage in melé, not worth it. With WotP you want to be shooting twince at least the 2 first turns. With how ap and cover works now, the shield is not really with it and it's quite expensive.

I have successfully taken land raiders in turn q twice now, and if the enemy didn't have one, I could easily take another 2 tanks turn one, and with wave serpents coming ur way with fire dragons and d scythes and a hemlock, it's not such an obvious thing to shoot him, which means turn 2 you shoot twice again and assault

I was under the impression the sword was the preferred weapon in 7th? Maybe not for Ynnari but definitely for regular Craftworld, right (not counting Skathach)? I always read that the Wraithcannons were too unreliable and the Suncannon wasn't that useful.

Wyldcarde wrote:I agree with the previous comment. Sword and shield is the worst as you are removing your expensive model from a phase.
I prefer shield and suncannon. Trade a bit of damage potential against high end models for the extra survivability of the 5+ invul. The sword is almost not needed as the stomp is better in all circumstances except for the high toughness targets. Even then the extra attacks from the stomp keep the wounds ticking over. Then usually just have a couple of shuriken cannons on the shoulders. Obviously starcannons are the better option but then you are paying 600 points for the model...

Fair enough. I haven't read too much on Wraithknights in the new edition, I just saw a few friends saying they think the sword is the best option but that might be because they modelled all of theirs with them

Seems like a toss up between the wraithcannon and suncannon builds now which is cool. Having now checked the points, for Ynnari especially the guns are a no-brainer.

Wyldcarde wrote:
The immortals. Go for the 6 to wound for ap -4 and should cut into the unit. Especially if doomed. Then charge the unit.

Spiders can't charge after jump move (unless you meant other unit).
Shot immortals btw as well, killed 2 or 3 maybe with rending.
20 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 2 rendings - ~4 2+ save infantry models per shooting phase.
Good against their vehicles though.

Caederes wrote:


Seems like a toss up between the wraithcannon and suncannon builds now which is cool. Having now checked the points, for Ynnari especially the guns are a no-brainer.

Word of the Phoenix obviously is great as it can be cast on a Wraithknight and allow it to shoot twice, but if you're playing aggressive then the payout is even bigger for a sword and board knight. You can cast WotP to move twice to get that first turn charge, and then get stuck in and cast it for an extra fight phase. That gives you 8 attacks that are stronger than the 8 shots you would get with the wraithcannons, or 24 stomps to deal with infantry. I personally have never considered the suncannon because I'm the guy who would roll snake eyes and get two shots with it at critical moments. Eldar aren't Orks!

I played Eva with Wraithcannons and 2 Starcannons. Decent shooting and Fortuned it can stay for a while on the table at least on 1500-1750 pts. Leg attacks are terrific, and if you want Eva to make it's 500 points back (I managed to), you are pretty much obliged to shoot and use Unstoppable Revenant to charge every turn as well, using every phase to do damage.

However I am concidering Suncannon+2 SL. The price is around 2WC+2SC. Yes, the new blast mechanics are terrible, but '48 range on Suncannon means targeting anything on the board. The invul helps multi wound models greatly.

Guide or Autarch for re-rolling 1's with BS3+ blast weapon would be needed, WotP would also be needed, and preferably some extra Command Points so good detach composition as well would be required. Seems like hilariously inneficient way of trying to make one overpriced unit work, and I believe Mattler who made math for eldar on other forums would call this something from gambling like "chasing the numbers", but what can you do.

The FAQ is out: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Xenos_1_ver_1.0.pdf

No WotF on anything, just units that can soulburst.
No mixing of Ynnari with non-ynnari.
And Starcannons are D3 damage.

fresus wrote:
The FAQ is out: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Xenos_1_ver_1.0.pdf

No WotF on anything, just units that can soulburst.
No mixing of Ynnari with non-ynnari.
And Starcannons are D3 damage.

Actually the errata now allows the mixing of Ynnari and non-Ynnari, as long as they're in different detachments. This is a buff. The only thing you're not allowed to do now that you were before is include one of the three Ynnari HQs in a generic Aeldari detachment.

Woha! We sure needed the nerf!
Overpriced AF Wraithknight with no access to WotF? Check.
Overpriced, weak Starcannons? Check.
And why would you want to have half your army not being Ynnari? Rising Crescendo is nice, but the fewer units with SfD, the less bennefit as a whole army.

Kudos GW