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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

Unless you got a librarian the odds on that charge aren't great.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

Word. 100% reliable mid-game reinforcements that are absolutely brutal in CC, Thunder Hammers or not. Terminators seem like a very solid choice.

 Desubot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

But a lot of those 2 damage weapons also cost a bit or come with downsides.

it seems like a wash.

Do they? A kabalite warrior with blaster is 19 points.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

But a lot of those 2 damage weapons also cost a bit or come with downsides.

it seems like a wash.

Do they? A kabalite warrior with blaster is 19 points.

Soooo one thing?

one very fragile thing.

im sure there are more examples.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

Unless you got a librarian the odds on that charge aren't great.

hot command rolls help out alot.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success,and you will always be charging a unit of my choosing.

Eh. It's okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

But a lot of those 2 damage weapons also cost a bit or come with downsides.

it seems like a wash.

Do they? A kabalite warrior with blaster is 19 points.

Soooo one thing?

one very fragile thing.

I'm sorry, were you expecting me to go through all 500 weapon profiles and list them for you?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success,and you will always be charging a unit of my choosing.

Eh. It's okay.

Yes it's ok, but it's even better when you do it to enemy back lines, nothing ruins a tau players day like 10 terminators 9 inches away from their suits in the back. They now have to choose, deal with that, or deal with what's up front.

It's a risk reward thing.

 Dovis wrote:
With so much possibility to have re-rolls of 1 IS there ANY reason not to take and overcharge Plasma weapons?


Gear and situation (optimal for each unit)

Scions (4 Plasma, ordered to rapid fire)

Chosen 5 Plasma, Rapid fire

Marines Bolters, Rapid fire

Terminators Storm Bolters Rapid fire, Assault Cannon

Unit; Point cost; Shooting vs T3 Save 4+; Shooting vs Marines; Shooting vs Terminators

Scions 64 4.43 3.72 2.92

Chosen 147 5.544 4.65696 3.65904

Tactical Marines 130 4.356 2.244 1.056

Terminators 261 6.278976 3.520176 2.1516


^ Those are average unsaved wound numbers

Even an overpriced unit like Chosen, can cripple or destroy a unit of Termies in 1 go and becomes somewhat even to basic tactical marines


Termies still suck big time, maybe even more than in 7th

Your math is wrong but I still agree.

for the record the math would be

n*.77*.825*.66
Where n equals the number of shots fired.

Assuming you have 4 models with plasma guns, some thing to reroll 1s near you, and are shooting at Termies (T4).

You haven't even seen the scariest thing yet.

Be Catachans.
Bring Sgt. Harker
Bring 4 Company Commanders
Bring 8 Command Squad w/ Plasma

586 points BS 3+ re-rolling 1s on everything re-rolling 1s to wound

64 plasma shots. Averages 46 wounds on T4 and below.

They kill close to their points in MEQ per turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success,and you will always be charging a unit of my choosing.
Eh. It's okay.

They will probably have a re-roll.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

You are exagerating the actual amount of weapons with more than 1 damage that an army can have. And if the enemy is shooting with those multiwounds weapons to your terminators instead of your dreadnoughts and tanks, is a win for you.

The same goes with the 2+save. Yeah, in 7th many weapons with AP3 or worse where bouncing off of your armour, but the giant amount of AP2 make that armour inviable. Is better to save at 3+ or 4+ 80% of the time and 2+ 20% of the time, than saving at 2+ 30% of the time and 5+ for your invulnerable save the rest of the time.

Terminators arent exeptional, 1 extra wound, dosent fix anything, they are still abit meh, expensive aswell, dont feel much happened to them with all the multiwound and mortal wound carry over. They feel the same. 9" charge is nice but not quite reliable. (and easely negated by bubblewrap and zoneblocking)

 Desubot wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

Makes me want to take sniper scouts even more.

also awesome.

You should. It holds down the meta enough to make people think twice about conscripts.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success

I make it 44%, so if you drop in three units your odds are ok I guess

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm sorry, were you expecting me to go through all 500 weapon profiles and list them for you?

I though you might of know if there was more.

only 2 damage things i know are the ones in the books iv gone through are plasma and auto cannons. not the easiest weapons to get into slots.

also only 1 blaster on the Bakelite warrior per 10? thats it?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

Terminators need to hope that horde armies are so powerful that people load up on AP 0 weapons to kill them.

I am pretty sad about the overpriced power fist terminators, because those are my favorite, and I am afraid that I'll feel even worse if I work out what would happen if they fought one of those conscript units they need to hope for.

lindsay40k wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success

I make it 44%, so if you drop in three units your odds are ok I guess

BlaxicanX wrote:
Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success,and you will always be charging a unit of my choosing.

Eh. It's okay.

You're actually looking at 27.7% chance of success. You need to deploy more than 9 inches, so you need to roll a 9 if you want to get within 1 inch.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success

I make it 44%, so if you drop in three units your odds are ok I guess

Important thing to remember is that you have to deploy MORE than 9" away from enemy models. The means you need to roll 9+ on your charge since a roll of 8 puts you more than 1" from your target. This drops your chance of a successful charge to 28%.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

I think though that it's not a bad thing, it means that you wanna use your heavier weapons on termies instead of just spam lasguns at them at least.

 alextroy wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Making a 9" charge has like a 47% chance of success

I make it 44%, so if you drop in three units your odds are ok I guess

Important thing to remember is that you have to deploy MORE than 9" away from enemy models. The means you need to roll 9+ on your charge since a roll of 8 puts you more than 1" from your target. This drops your chance of a successful charge to 28%.

Oh, see I was working from it being 9" or more with the 1" leeway of the charge making it an 8", yeah if deep strike is *more than* 9" then a mass paradrop/teleport is a terrible way to get into melee. Might work for Khornate Raptors and - to get back on topic - Terminators.

Come to think of it, Hereticus can shunt Chaos Termies closer after landing, in non-matched play without a limit of only doing it once a turn. Also, CT's combi-weapons don't run out of ammo now - so if we're talking about Plasma & TDA, get you a heretic who can do both

According to the new FAQ/"designers' commentary", you apply all re-rolls and modifiers before determining if you rolled that magic 1 or not:

"Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a '1' was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?

A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.

For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers, the final result is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as explained above), then the supercharged plasma weapon injures or kills the firer."

And regarding the less than one equals 1:

"Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than a 1?

A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1."

So this means that moving and firing a plasma cannon DOUBLES the chances of it blowing up in your face.

Similarly, shooting plasma cannon at a T'au Ghostkeel over 12" away that is within 3" of a friendly Stealth Drone while moving means that on a roll of 1-4, your weapon blows up in your face. BRUTAL. I'm not digging this.

So don't move and overcharge your Plasma Cannon, or overcharge it while firing at a Ghostkeel?

There's probably be a point if there were no option to supercharge, but with the current mechanic, seems very much in the vein of 'play stupid games win stupid prizes' to lose your Plasma Cannon in such a manner.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Did you factor in that those supercharged plasmas will also kill the users in 16.6666% of the time?

So your chosen and scions are both likely to lose 1 model in the first turn and 1 in the second. 3rd, only the chosen are averaged to just plain lose a model, but aggregating those averages and the spill-over in the averages both units would be gone after 3rd turn's shots.

Every faction has a Character to help you re-roll 1s, I had that in mind when providing these numbers


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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators are a scary unit once more, don't know what your on about.

I run a deathwing army, I'm dropping around 13 deathwing terminators and 5 deathwing Knights 9 inches away from you. I get to rapid fire all my weapons and because of a deathwing ancient, I get to retool all to hit rolls, so effectively twinlinked. That's going to be detrimental to anything with out a 3+, then I'm going to try and make charges. On top of that all, no scatter.

That's around 800 Points you're deepstriking


One could use 150 points to set up a perimeter defense as a rear guard, so you don't deep strike near anything important

With 650 Points left you can easily dedicate 300 of those to have two Devastator/Havoc/Other Heavy Support squads or more depending on the faction

Still Left with 350 Points

Can add a Character and a Vehicle on top


Said way to spend points would absolutely decimate the Termies

 Dovis wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Did you factor in that those supercharged plasmas will also kill the users in 16.6666% of the time?

So your chosen and scions are both likely to lose 1 model in the first turn and 1 in the second. 3rd, only the chosen are averaged to just plain lose a model, but aggregating those averages and the spill-over in the averages both units would be gone after 3rd turn's shots.

Every faction has a Character to help you re-roll 1s, I had that in mind when providing these numbers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Terminators are a scary unit once more, don't know what your on about.

I run a deathwing army, I'm dropping around 13 deathwing terminators and 5 deathwing Knights 9 inches away from you. I get to rapid fire all my weapons and because of a deathwing ancient, I get to retool all to hit rolls, so effectively twinlinked. That's going to be detrimental to anything with out a 3+, then I'm going to try and make charges. On top of that all, no scatter.

That's around 800 Points you're deepstriking


One could use 150 points to set up a perimeter defense as a rear guard, so you don't deep strike near anything important

With 650 Points left you can easily dedicate 300 of those to have two Devastator/Havoc/Other Heavy Support squads or more depending on the faction

Still Left with 350 Points

Can add a Character and a Vehicle on top


Said way to spend points would absolutely decimate the Termies

Yes that is possible assuming the minimum 52+ shots from the Terminators don't cripple one of those units just by showing up. Terminators now can throw out a lot of firepower. One of my 10 model Wolf Guard Units + Wolf Lord + Wolf Guard Battle Leader + Wolf Priest can toss out 20 Botler Shots, 20 Plasma Shots and 12 Assault Cannon with Re-Rolls to hit, Re-Rolls to Wound and a good chance to recover at least one model when I take damage.