So the Warlord Titan is toughness 16 now...

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**Aenarian**

I remember one thing: the old, old Emperor Battle Titan rules had it costing 4000 points. This is a blatant example of points inflation!

Of course, that one was mostly considered a joke from GW as there was and will probably never be a model for it.

**gungo**

JohnU wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote:
I love the absolutely ridiculousness of its rules.

Agree. It all seems appropriate.

for 4000 pts it's appropriate since you can spam 40x quad laser destroyers for the cost and likely kill the thing in 2x turns. Since it does 2d6 dam or 3d6 dam on a 6, str9 ap-4 and costs ~100pts.

However the biggest fw screw up in the giant spawn which is freakin ridiculous for the cost.

**Strg Alt**

p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

That´s the Brave New World we live in. Everything can hurt everything. It would have been a better design, if the Orks were forced to use their melta bomb-equivalent explosives to damage the titan in hth. Greenskins could even use their beloved powerklaws. But no, cleavers designed to make sausages out of pigs are sufficient to sent a WARLORD TITAN to the scrapyard. Well, at least then the Mekboyz can turn it into something better for instance a Gargant or a couple of Stompas.

**Eldar Vampire Hunter**

p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

How do you propose to catch a model that moves 18" a turn in close combat with boyz? Even if we assume the table geometry is in your favour, it's killing 75 a turn on average with shooting without even considering morale. Maybe if you start with it backed into a corner and every squad of boyz in charge range you win, but in a real-game scenario the orks get decimated.

**mrhappyface**

Jesus that Lascutter, stick a chaos lord next to the titan and get re-rolls of a 1 for an average of 36 shots at S12 and 6 damage each!

**Eldar Vampire Hunter**

gungo wrote:
for 4000 pts it's appropriate since you can spam 40x quad laser destroyers for the cost and likely kill the thing in 2x turns. Since it does 2d6 dam or 3d6 dam on a 6, str9 ap-4 and costs ~100pts.

However the biggest fw screw up in the giant spawn which is freakin ridiculous for the cost.

40 laser destroyers actually only get an average of just under three damage dice through its void shields in one round of shooting. Granted those three dice are gonna seriously sting, but it's going first and you better have those models very well spread our the plasma annihilators are going to delete most of them before they shoot.

**mrhappyface**

On a side note, has someone compiled these leaks yet? I can only find scattered images on /tg/.

**Eldar Vampire Hunter**

There's an epub of the Chaos leaks up somewhere but I don't think the full space marine book is up anywhere yet.

**Aenarian**

mrhappyface wrote:
On a side note, has someone compiled these leaks yet? I can only find scattered images on /tg/.

A lot of the Forge World ones can be found in the Forge World News & Rumours-thread.

**Galas**

Strg Alt wrote:
p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

That´s the Brave New World we live in. Everything can hurt everything. It would have been a better design, if the Orks were forced to use their melta bomb-equivalent explosives to damage the titan in hth. Greenskins could even use their beloved powerklaws. But no, cleavers designed to make sausages out of pigs are sufficient to sent a WARLORD TITAN to the scrapyard. Well, at least then the Mekboyz can turn it into something better for instance a Gargant or a couple of Stompas.

The fact that a 4.000 Warlord Titan vs 4000 points of Conscripts + Commisars and Commanders is not a one-side battle and the conscripts can at least make like 40-50% of his wounds agains't the Titan is a achievement of proper balance to the game.
Anti tank weaponry could kill the Titan for 2.000 in one turn with no problem.

**Strg Alt**

Galas wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

That´s the Brave New World we live in. Everything can hurt everything. It would have been a better design, if the Orks were forced to use their melta bomb-equivalent explosives to damage the titan in hth. Greenskins could even use their beloved powerklaws. But no, cleavers designed to make sausages out of pigs are sufficient to sent a WARLORD TITAN to the scrapyard. Well, at least then the Mekboyz can turn it into something better for instance a Gargant or a couple of Stompas.

The fact that a 4.000 Warlord Titan vs 4000 points of Conscripts + Commisars and Commanders is not a one-side battle and the conscripts can at least make like 40-50% of his wounds agains't the Titan is a achievement of proper balance to the game.
Anti tank weaponry could kill the Titan for 2.000 in one turn with no problem.

No balance is needed in this scenario. Conscripts are like flies that smash against your car´s windshield. Do you expect it to break? Nevertheless, Warlord vs. Conscripts is a purely academic debate because you will never encounter it on a battlefield. People would have to be crazy to actually buy a Warlord for 40K or even paint such an insane amount of IG cannon fodder.

**Aenarian**

If my windshield was hit by a a few tonnes of flies I would most likely not want to sit behind it.

But yes, this is just an academic discussion. You will more or less never see a Warlord Titan on a normal table, and on the larger apocalypse ones it will be very difficult for more than a thousand conscripts to ever reach it within a few turns. If there are 48 inches between the deployment zones, you will be able to fire at it during turn 3 at the earliest, and then without rapid fire. In the meantime, how many has the Warlord Titan killed?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Stoked that my Ordinatus can potentially kill a Warlord in one volley.

Sure, the odds aren't exactly in my favour...but man, that thing is gonna wreck face and pretty much just delete enemy Super Heavies,

**Strg Alt**

Aenarian wrote:
If my windshield was hit by a a few tonnes of flies I would most likely not want to sit behind it.

But yes, this is just an academic discussion. You will more or less never see a Warlord Titan on a normal table, and on the larger apocalypse ones it will be very difficult for more than a thousand conscripts to ever reach it within a few turns. If there are 48 inches between the deployment zones, you will be able to fire at it during turn 3 at the earliest, and then without rapid fire. In the meantime, how many has the Warlord Titan killed?

You presume that all flies hit at once but that is not the case. You can´t physically fit all conscripts in threat range to the Titan. They arrive in human waves.
Yes, terrain and board size plays an important role, too. The battle could take place on a barren landscape without terrain features or the board could be divided by a river with just a few bridges allowing travel to the other side. Imps would be funneled through the bottleneck like lambs to the slaughter. Sadly, all blast templates are gone in 8th.

**Aenarian**

Strg Alt wrote:
Aenarian wrote:
If my windshield was hit by a a few tonnes of flies I would most likely not want to sit behind it.

But yes, this is just an academic discussion. You will more or less never see a Warlord Titan on a normal table, and on the larger apocalypse ones it will be very difficult for more than a thousand conscripts to ever reach it within a few turns. If there are 48 inches between the deployment zones, you will be able to fire at it during turn 3 at the earliest, and then without rapid fire. In the meantime, how many has the Warlord Titan killed?

You presume that all flies hit at once but that is not the case. You can´t physically fit all conscripts in threat range to the Titan. They arrive in human waves.
Yes, terrain and board size plays an important role, too. The battle could take place on a barren landscape without terrain features or the board could be divided by a river with just a few bridges allowing travel to the other side. Imps would be funneled through the bottleneck like lambs to the slaughter. Sadly, all blast templates are gone in 8th.

You could definitely compress a vast number of flies into a solid heavy block. Or just having a few meters thick lump of flies which you plow through. I never said anything about the Conscripts though, my reply was only aimed at your fly comment.

But this isn't really relevant and if we want to discuss how many flies it takes to break a windshield we can take that discussion elsewhere.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

One day I shall own a Warlord Titan.

But it is not this day. Nor any time soon.

Maybe once I make Ombudsman.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Strg Alt wrote:
p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

That´s the Brave New World we live in. Everything can hurt everything. It would have been a better design, if the Orks were forced to use their melta bomb-equivalent explosives to damage the titan in hth. Greenskins could even use their beloved powerklaws. But no, cleavers designed to make sausages out of pigs are sufficient to sent a WARLORD TITAN to the scrapyard. Well, at least then the Mekboyz can turn it into something better for instance a Gargant or a couple of Stompas.

Except its toughness 16 (so 6s to hurt) and 70 wounds with a 2+ save, and it gets 20 attacks a turn against them. And it can disengage, move 18" and shoot them. Keep in mind that it can move over infantry, so even if you surround it its still going to disengage.
It is just not efficient. Not to mention that as you can only fight in two ranks, only a fraction would be able to fight. I don't know how big the titan's base is, so let's say 50.

Not going to factor in ghaz, because that wasn't in the original claim; he just said 500 boyz and then moved the goal posts by adding in force multipliers.
50 * 4 = 200 attacks.
200 * 0.667 = 133 hits
133 * 0.167 = 22 wounds
33*0.167 = about 4 unsaved wounds.

Congrats, you just removed 4 wounds out of 70. Keep doing that for another 20 turns, without taking any casualties or the titan just walking off and shooting you, and I'm sure you'll kill it eventually. You might even hurt the pilot's pride that you scratched the paint off of the titan's foot.
Unless it shoots them off the table with those weapons that deal like 36 hits. Against squads that have a max size of 30. Or a melee attack with 20 attacks resolved at strength 16 and -3 armor.

Now let's see how much damage the titan can do.
First, overwatch.
Assuming that it's armed with, idk, two warlord gatling blasters and a vulcan megabolter

Warlord gatling =
24 * 0.167 = 4 hits
4 * 3 due to weapon ability = 12
12 * 0.83 = 10 wounds

vulcan =

20*0.167 = 3 hits
3 * 0.5 = 1.5 wounds

defense bolters =

12 * 0.33 = 4 hits
4*0.5 = 2 wound

13.5 wounds from overwatch

in cc =

20 * 0.5 = 10
10 * 0.83 = 8.3

8.3 wounds from CC.

So about 22 wounds from overwatch and CC combined. The Warlord outdamages them.

**Justyn**

Anyone have a link for the Reaver. My books are ordered, but went with dead tree format not electronic. So it will be a while before I see them.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I'm dubious that it can pull its weight.

Unless facing other Super Heavies, it's pretty much overkill writ large.

Same issue faces my Sagittar. Yes, what ever I point it at is almost certainly going bye-byes. But if I've not got decent targets (probably talking Land Raider upwards) it's just not gonna have a big impact on the game.

Will still field it though, because Ordinatus!

**Elbows**

Sounds fun and goofy...I dig it.

**Strg Alt**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
p5freak wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

No, they won't. 500 boys aren't getting to it it one piece, and the remainder are unlikely to strip 70 of its wounds before dying.
Its almost as if using light infantry to take on a titan is a bad idea and a waste of manpower.

Yes, they will. They dont need to get to it in one piece. Each boy has 4 attacks. They can shoot it with their pistols in CC, too. With Ghahzkull and a Psyker they can have up to 6 attack each, when they charge, and Warpath is cast.

That´s the Brave New World we live in. Everything can hurt everything. It would have been a better design, if the Orks were forced to use their melta bomb-equivalent explosives to damage the titan in hth. Greenskins could even use their beloved powerklaws. But no, cleavers designed to make sausages out of pigs are sufficient to sent a WARLORD TITAN to the scrapyard. Well, at least then the Mekboyz can turn it into something better for instance a Gargant or a couple of Stompas.

Except its toughness 16 (so 6s to hurt) and 70 wounds with a 2+ save, and it gets 20 attacks a turn against them. And it can disengage, move 18" and shoot them. Keep in mind that it can move over infantry, so even if you surround it its still going to disengage.
It is just not efficient. Not to mention that as you can only fight in two ranks, only a fraction would be able to fight. I don't know how big the titan's base is, so let's say 50.

Not going to factor in ghaz, because that wasn't in the original claim; he just said 500 boyz and then moved the goal posts by adding in force multipliers.
50 * 4 = 200 attacks.
200 * 0.667 = 133 hits
133 * 0.167 = 22 wounds
33*0.167 = about 4 unsaved wounds.

Congrats, you just removed 4 wounds out of 70. Keep doing that for another 20 turns, without taking any casualties or the titan just walking off and shooting you, and I'm sure you'll kill it eventually. You might even hurt the pilot's pride that you scratched the paint off of the titan's foot.
Unless it shoots them off the table with those weapons that deal like 36 hits. Against squads that have a max size of 30. Or a melee attack with 20 attacks resolved at strength 16 and -3 armor.

Now let's see how much damage the titan can do.
First, overwatch.
Assuming that it's armed with, idk, two warlord gatling blasters and a vulcan megabolter

Warlord gatling =
24 * 0.167 = 4 hits
4 * 3 due to weapon ability = 12
12 * 0.83 = 10 wounds

vulcan =

20*0.167 = 3 hits
3 * 0.5 = 1.5 wounds

defense bolters =

12 * 0.33 = 4 hits
4*0.5 = 2 wound

13.5 wounds from overwatch

in cc =

20 * 0.5 = 10
10 * 0.83 = 8.3

8.3 wounds from CC.

So about 22 wounds from overwatch and CC combined. The Warlord outdamages them.

All of this just boils down to one question: Should a meat cleaver be able to damage a warmachine the size of a skyscraper? The answer to this question is NO.

**CthuluIsSpy**

If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

**Mr Morden**

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
Various units from the Forge World Chaos and SM indexes have started to make there way onto 4chan and I've been having fun reading up on some of them, but the unit I was most excited for was the Warlord just to see how they would do a vehicle that gigantic. Only the chaos version is available so far since the loyalist warlord is in the AM book which isn't out until the 23rd.

The Warlord is roughly 4000 points, with S and T 16 and 70 wounds and a 2+ save. It has pretty granular damage weakening starting when it hits 60 wounds, but while at full strength it gets a 3++ from void shields and is BS2+. I won't copypaste all the special rules, but suffice to say you're not tying this thing up in close combat, and even if you do it's still going to shoot you.

The titan power fist is S32 and deals an automatic 12 damage at -5 AP, but it's probably better to use the Saturnyne Lascutter which is only a modest S20 (and so still wounds everything short of a Reaver on a 2+) but is otherwise identical and also has a shooting profile with strength 12, 6 damage and as many shots as you can roll consecutive hits (at BS2+, if you're healthy) to a maximum of 12.

Its Quake Cannon is also S20 with 3d6 shots, -5 AP, 6 damage and the ability to halve movement and deny advancing for anything it hits. Its Volcano cannons get S30, -6 AP and 12 damage instead, but only d6 shots - though it does a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a six. Of the other arm options, the Plasma Annihilator can splash to multiple units and is kind of in between with the profile (but with only S10) but doesn't seem that strong unless it's quite a bit cheaper. The Gatling Blaster is 12 shots, 3 damage and otherwise a battlecannon profile - but hits vs infantry are tripled. Still doesn't seem like it measures up to the other options since you can get double vulcan mega bolters on the shoulders if you really need to dick on infantry, but its fun I guess.

Oh and the Warhound Titan's Inferno gun gets 4d6 autohits at S7 AP-3 D4 so I suspect that's gonna be pretty fun.

Does the Warlord have any weapons that get past Quantum Shielding?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Mr Morden wrote:
Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
Various units from the Forge World Chaos and SM indexes have started to make there way onto 4chan and I've been having fun reading up on some of them, but the unit I was most excited for was the Warlord just to see how they would do a vehicle that gigantic. Only the chaos version is available so far since the loyalist warlord is in the AM book which isn't out until the 23rd.

The Warlord is roughly 4000 points, with S and T 16 and 70 wounds and a 2+ save. It has pretty granular damage weakening starting when it hits 60 wounds, but while at full strength it gets a 3++ from void shields and is BS2+. I won't copypaste all the special rules, but suffice to say you're not tying this thing up in close combat, and even if you do it's still going to shoot you.

The titan power fist is S32 and deals an automatic 12 damage at -5 AP, but it's probably better to use the Saturnyne Lascutter which is only a modest S20 (and so still wounds everything short of a Reaver on a 2+) but is otherwise identical and also has a shooting profile with strength 12, 6 damage and as many shots as you can roll consecutive hits (at BS2+, if you're healthy) to a maximum of 12.

Its Quake Cannon is also S20 with 3d6 shots, -5 AP, 6 damage and the ability to halve movement and deny advancing for anything it hits. Its Volcano cannons get S30, -6 AP and 12 damage instead, but only d6 shots - though it does a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a six. Of the other arm options, the Plasma Annihilator can splash to multiple units and is kind of in between with the profile (but with only S10) but doesn't seem that strong unless it's quite a bit cheaper. The Gatling Blaster is 12 shots, 3 damage and otherwise a battlecannon profile - but hits vs infantry are tripled. Still doesn't seem like it measures up to the other options since you can get double vulcan mega bolters on the shoulders if you really need to dick on infantry, but its fun I guess.

Oh and the Warhound Titan's Inferno gun gets 4d6 autohits at S7 AP-3 D4 so I suspect that's gonna be pretty fun.

Does the Warlord have any weapons that get past Quantum Shielding?

the megabolters only have a damage characteristic of 2, so they have a 83% chance of bypassing it.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

Yup.

Chop through cables. See if you can wreck its hydraulics. Even bending the right piece out of shape can cause further structural issues.

**ZebioLizard2**

All of this just boils down to one question: Should a meat cleaver be able to damage a warmachine the size of a skyscraper? The answer to this question is NO.

An Ork Bike. Something made of scrap, spit, and engines rammed through a Warlord Titan's void shields (which set him on fire) and rammed through the face of the Titan.

**Strg Alt**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

There are two philosophies at work here:
1. Everything can hurt everything
Congratulation. You can use all toys in your 40K games. There will never be a situation in which your poorest units like grots or conscripts can´t contribute to the battle. You don´t have melta bombs at hand to blow this scary tank up? Nevermind, a few placed karate chops from your ninja grots will finish this metal behemoth unit off. Yes, I know they won´t strip all wounds by themselves but perhaps one or two.

2. Differentiation between mechanical & organic units:
You need specific weapons to deal with mechanical units. Your grot chops won´t damage a Dreadnought in hth. You should be resourceful enough to think about which weapons you bring to the match. In these games you should talk with your opponent about what kind of units will be fighting in a battle.

I like to play games with philosophy 2 in mind and 2nd enables me to do it.

**CthuluIsSpy**

If you rely on your infantry to kill tanks without the proper equipment in this edition, you are going to have a bad time.
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.
Try using statistics and actually playing some games. You'll find its not that efficient.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

All of this just boils down to one question: Should a meat cleaver be able to damage a warmachine the size of a skyscraper? The answer to this question is NO.
An Ork Bike. Something made of scrap, spit, and engines rammed through a Warlord Titan's void shields (which set him on fire) and rammed through the face of the Titan.

Ah, Wazdakka from the 4th ed codex. That was hilarious

**ZebioLizard2**

2. Differentiation between mechanical & organic units:
You need specific weapons to deal with mechanical units. Your grot chops won´t damage a Dreadnought in hth. You should be resourceful enough to think about which weapons you bring to the match. In these games you should talk with your opponent about what kind of units will be fighting in a battle.

Except we have examples of Grots and Snotlings sneaking in through vehicle pipes, exhaust vents, hatches and the like to explode things on the inside. Should we have extra rules on vehicles or the grots/snotlings that they may sneak in, find the bomb supply and start having fun?

Ah, Wazdakka from the 4th ed codex. That was hilarious

It's a reminder that we've had some weird stuff happening in fluff that is barely represented on the tabletop that can happen to vehicles and the like.

**Trickstick**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If you swing it hard enough, you might make a hole. The lost wound is that hole.Damage the legs enough, and it might fall over due to structural instability. Its an abstraction.

Yup.

Chop through cables. See if you can wreck its hydraulics. Even bending the right piece out of shape can cause further structural issues.

There was a part in the book Titanicus that had a titan fighting unsupported against a horde of infantry. They ended up climbing all over the thing, hacking their way into the cockpit and horribly murdering everyone inside. You just have to be a bit more imaginative in your vision of a battle than "they attack its toes".