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But...but.. we have two heads for each marine!?! Everyone knows that the biggest gripe over the past 20 years was to not be able to magnetize and hot swap heads on our marines! And we only had to sacrifice different poses and every special and heavy weapon to get it. :(

 Yodhrin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Intercessors only have 5 fixes poses isn't very surprising. That's exactly how the Reivers are.

Yes, and having built some Reivers, I have to say it works just fine. With different arm and head positions the models do not look samey, and if you still feel you need more options, cutting them from the waist (or any joint, really) and slightly adjusting the pose is super easy.

I beg to differ, I have seen multiple units of these things and they might as well be snap fit when there are enough of them. Theres almost nothing distinguishable about them throughout the unit. Whats worse is theres not really anything in their actual kit to make much of a difference.

I have to say these kits aside from the Aggressors and Inceptors are really lame at their price point. I give the former a pass sicne they seem to have more pose-ability and thus character. In regard to the Intercessors and Reivers though, it's like paying FU money for black reach guys upscaled, you have no real way to change their poses outside chopping the crap out of them and filling them back in, which normally I don't mind, but these guys just have that bland filler line troop look after all that work so why bother? Personally I'd go for ebaying the starter minis for cheaper. Not like you need more then the minimum anyways since they suck in game currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Space Wolf Packs were that way and they came out years ago. It is just much more efficient money wise to do it this way. As long as there are plenty of ways to differentiate the models that are the same across the two sprues, I don't have a problem with it.

But those were completely modular.

So...because the torso is attached to the legs, but the arms and heads are not, the Intercessors are not modular?

I think you may want to reread what he said more carefully, he said completely.

Yeah, I don't see it frankly. People lionise the old style of plastic Marines for their variability, but the simple truth is most of that variability is not pose, it's selection of bits. The reality when you're actually sitting down and building, say, 10 guys with bolters is that there's only a certain range of motion that works; the classic multipart style theoretically has more "angles" available to the torso sure, but the reality is the torso will be straight-on, canted a bit left, or canted a bit right. If you get too extreme with your choice of angles for the torso and arm joints, it just looks daft, and if you built an army out of just Tactical Marines straight from the box with poses that make sense for their loadouts it wouldn't look any more varied than an army of Primaris all built from the box.

The flaw with Primaris isn't that they have a series of "fixed" poses for the torso & legs, it's that they don't yet have enough variation in bits to adequately differentiate those standard poses(which, again, are functionally pretty much the same as the ones you'd "build" from the old kits, at least assuming you weren't depicting Marines from the Broken Spines chapter) without conversions.

Several Sergent weapon options, choice of heavy, choice of special, the guy scanning with an auspex another reloading, a ton of free hands that can be filled with knives and pistols or spare ammo. There are a lot of things you can do with the tactical kit, sure if you just go auto pilot on the bolter guys they can look similar but I have seen many tactical squads where every guy looked unique and distinguishable and part of it comes from parts variety. Being able to pivot the waste one way or the other isn't as small a factor as your making it out to be, I just assembled 60 chaos marines recently and I have guys with the gear that look wildly different because I can cantor left and turn his head the same way and make him appear to be looking over his shoulder away from his gun or leading with his pad like he's bracing for a charge or buy cantering and turning the head the other way give the impression he is firing on the move. If I can cook up 5 different poses for your regular bolter guy before I start using any of the variety of options for heads, legs or other details then I can easily end up with a ton of normal guys that each have their own flavor. New Primaris intercessors have some of that for sure but mostly it's helmet or no helmet. Having the hands attached to the fricken guns is just ridiculously daft to me.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Intercessors only have 5 fixes poses isn't very surprising. That's exactly how the Reivers are.

Yes, and having built some Reivers, I have to say it works just fine. With different arm and head positions the models do not look samey, and if you still feel you need more options, cutting them from the waist (or any joint, really) and slightly adjusting the pose is super easy.

I beg to differ, I have seen multiple units of these things and they might as well be snap fit when there are enough of them. Theres almost nothing distinguishable about them throughout the unit. Whats worse is theres not really anything in their actual kit to make much of a difference.

I have to say these kits aside from the Aggressors and Inceptors are really lame at their price point. I give the former a pass sicne they seem to have more pose-ability and thus character. In regard to the Intercessors and Reivers though, it's like paying FU money for black reach guys upscaled, you have no real way to change their poses outside chopping the crap out of them and filling them back in, which normally I don't mind, but these guys just have that bland filler line troop look after all that work so why bother? Personally I'd go for ebaying the starter minis for cheaper. Not like you need more then the minimum anyways since they suck in game currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Space Wolf Packs were that way and they came out years ago. It is just much more efficient money wise to do it this way. As long as there are plenty of ways to differentiate the models that are the same across the two sprues, I don't have a problem with it.

But those were completely modular.

So...because the torso is attached to the legs, but the arms and heads are not, the Intercessors are not modular?

I think you may want to reread what he said more carefully, he said completely.

Yeah, I don't see it frankly. People lionise the old style of plastic Marines for their variability, but the simple truth is most of that variability is not pose, it's selection of bits. The reality when you're actually sitting down and building, say, 10 guys with bolters is that there's only a certain range of motion that works; the classic multipart style theoretically has more "angles" available to the torso sure, but the reality is the torso will be straight-on, canted a bit left, or canted a bit right. If you get too extreme with your choice of angles for the torso and arm joints, it just looks daft, and if you built an army out of just Tactical Marines straight from the box with poses that make sense for their loadouts it wouldn't look any more varied than an army of Primaris all built from the box.

The flaw with Primaris isn't that they have a series of "fixed" poses for the torso & legs, it's that they don't yet have enough variation in bits to adequately differentiate those standard poses(which, again, are functionally pretty much the same as the ones you'd "build" from the old kits, at least assuming you weren't depicting Marines from the Broken Spines chapter) without conversions.

Several Sergent weapon options, choice of heavy, choice of special, the guy scanning with an auspex another reloading, a ton of free hands that can be filled with knives and pistols or spare ammo. There are a lot of things you can do with the tactical kit, sure if you just go auto pilot on the bolter guys they can look similar but I have seen many tactical squads where every guy looked unique and distinguishable and part of it comes from parts variety. Being able to pivot the waste one way or the other isn't as small a factor as your making it out to be, I just assembled 60 chaos marines recently and I have guys with the gear that look wildly different because I can cantor left and turn his head the same way and make him appear to be looking over his shoulder away from his gun or leading with his pad like he's bracing for a charge or buy cantering and turning the head the other way give the impression he is firing on the move. If I can cook up 5 different poses for your regular bolter guy before I start using any of the variety of options for heads, legs or other details then I can easily end up with a ton of normal guys that each have their own flavor. New Primaris intercessors have some of that for sure but mostly it's helmet or no helmet. Having the hands attached to the fricken guns is just ridiculously daft to me.

So you agree then - the problem is there aren't yet enough bits to achieve the same level of variation. I still don't see how being able to choose different angles for the waist joint(but in reality almost always using the same small handful of poses, which are adequately provided in the Primaris poses) is a big deal. You can combine different sets of arms with different bodies to achieve the "shoulder charge" pose and others, and the hands have been attached to the guns on GW kits for ages now.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Intercessors only have 5 fixes poses isn't very surprising. That's exactly how the Reivers are.

Yes, and having built some Reivers, I have to say it works just fine. With different arm and head positions the models do not look samey, and if you still feel you need more options, cutting them from the waist (or any joint, really) and slightly adjusting the pose is super easy.

I beg to differ, I have seen multiple units of these things and they might as well be snap fit when there are enough of them. Theres almost nothing distinguishable about them throughout the unit. Whats worse is theres not really anything in their actual kit to make much of a difference.

I have to say these kits aside from the Aggressors and Inceptors are really lame at their price point. I give the former a pass sicne they seem to have more pose-ability and thus character. In regard to the Intercessors and Reivers though, it's like paying FU money for black reach guys upscaled, you have no real way to change their poses outside chopping the crap out of them and filling them back in, which normally I don't mind, but these guys just have that bland filler line troop look after all that work so why bother? Personally I'd go for ebaying the starter minis for cheaper. Not like you need more then the minimum anyways since they suck in game currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Space Wolf Packs were that way and they came out years ago. It is just much more efficient money wise to do it this way. As long as there are plenty of ways to differentiate the models that are the same across the two sprues, I don't have a problem with it.

But those were completely modular.

So...because the torso is attached to the legs, but the arms and heads are not, the Intercessors are not modular?

I think you may want to reread what he said more carefully, he said completely.

Yeah, I don't see it frankly. People lionise the old style of plastic Marines for their variability, but the simple truth is most of that variability is not pose, it's selection of bits. The reality when you're actually sitting down and building, say, 10 guys with bolters is that there's only a certain range of motion that works; the classic multipart style theoretically has more "angles" available to the torso sure, but the reality is the torso will be straight-on, canted a bit left, or canted a bit right. If you get too extreme with your choice of angles for the torso and arm joints, it just looks daft, and if you built an army out of just Tactical Marines straight from the box with poses that make sense for their loadouts it wouldn't look any more varied than an army of Primaris all built from the box.

The flaw with Primaris isn't that they have a series of "fixed" poses for the torso & legs, it's that they don't yet have enough variation in bits to adequately differentiate those standard poses(which, again, are functionally pretty much the same as the ones you'd "build" from the old kits, at least assuming you weren't depicting Marines from the Broken Spines chapter) without conversions.

Several Sergent weapon options, choice of heavy, choice of special, the guy scanning with an auspex another reloading, a ton of free hands that can be filled with knives and pistols or spare ammo. There are a lot of things you can do with the tactical kit, sure if you just go auto pilot on the bolter guys they can look similar but I have seen many tactical squads where every guy looked unique and distinguishable and part of it comes from parts variety. Being able to pivot the waste one way or the other isn't as small a factor as your making it out to be, I just assembled 60 chaos marines recently and I have guys with the gear that look wildly different because I can cantor left and turn his head the same way and make him appear to be looking over his shoulder away from his gun or leading with his pad like he's bracing for a charge or buy cantering and turning the head the other way give the impression he is firing on the move. If I can cook up 5 different poses for your regular bolter guy before I start using any of the variety of options for heads, legs or other details then I can easily end up with a ton of normal guys that each have their own flavor. New Primaris intercessors have some of that for sure but mostly it's helmet or no helmet. Having the hands attached to the fricken guns is just ridiculously daft to me.

So you agree then - the problem is there aren't yet enough bits to achieve the same level of variation. I still don't see how being able to choose different angles for the waist joint(but in reality almost always using the same small handful of poses, which are adequately provided in the Primaris poses) is a big deal. You can combine different sets of arms with different bodies to achieve the "shoulder charge" pose and others, and the hands have been attached to the guns on GW kits for ages now.

I've recently assembled two squads of Fallen with robed Dark Angels and Mk.IV respectively, and I found the fixed torsos on the Dark Angels noticeably limiting. Even if you discount that because of the robes the combination of torso design and leg design is the same on two or three models of the squad, already limiting diversity, the torso always faces the same way at the same angle. There's no room for nuance, and considering there are only three bolter arm varieties to work with, not everyone of which fits neatly, the ability to turn or tilt at the waist is oftentimes a crucial factor for making Marines look different and poses look good and natural.

You don't have to go Broken Spines chapter all the way, a few degrees here and there make an actual difference.

I've yet to work with multi part Primaris, but the continuing loss of posability in GW kits has been a great disappointment to me.

It's not just left and right but pitching the torso slightly forward or slightly back can alter the pose a lot. Leaning forward with a gun raised looks different (more aggressive) to leaning back with gun raised (more defensive). Fixed torsos feth all that unless you get the saw out

 Bull0 wrote:
It's not just left and right but pitching the torso slightly forward or slightly back can alter the pose a lot. Leaning forward with a gun raised looks different (more aggressive) to leaning back with gun raised (more defensive). Fixed torsos feth all that unless you get the saw out

Two things about this - firstly, nobody disputes that those poses look different. Some may dispute that altering the pitch does not constitute 'a lot' of options, or some promised land of infinite 'unique' poses. Secondly, the specific poses you reference can and are still accounted for in a kit where the torsos are fixed without having to 'get the saw out'. The only option you lose is that you can't make ALL of your marines leaning forward or leaning backward, but that option seems counter having a squad with unique individual models.

Er, two things about that - first, I didn't call it a lot of options or the promised land, I used it as an example to explain that fixed torsos prevent more than just lateral rotation. I did use the words "a lot" but you'll find you've taken it out of context

Secondly, it makes feth all difference what poses are "accounted for" in a kit with less poseability since I'm not talking about that, I'm just talking about the merits of having loose torsos. If I have ten different poses in a ten man kit, and I can't alter any of them without sawing, I've lost options versus a more modular kit and as modelling is my favourite part of the hobby it makes a huge difference to me. Never interacted with you in any way before and my first opportunity is you quoting me to "refute" my opinion with some tangential ideas in a generally rude way. Sweet post, have an exalt

Considering that you can freely mix Hellblaster and Intercessor kits, this means you have ten different base bodies for you power armoured Primaris guys you can further customise with arm and head positions. I'd imagine that this contains most positions that look sensible and could be assembled from more modular kits. And of course on top of that there are bunch of differently posed guys from the DI/easybuild sets. This seems plenty to me. And of course, as I already said earlier, due their segmented armour cutting and reposing marines is pretty damn easy if you need more options.

Ah, good, as long as it seems plenty to you, I guess anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

 Bull0 wrote:
Ah, good, as long as it seems plenty to you, I guess anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

Of course ultimately with one more poseable joint you'll have more options. Modelling is my favourite aspect of this hobby by far, so I do care about these things. I just don't thing the new kits are quite as limited as people think. Ultimately it is a choice between extra poseability and the stomach area looking good. With old marines the cables/stomach plate look wrong if you angle the torso much. Now this is often covered by the weapon, but on models it is not, it is noticeable. Primaris models have more detailed stomach sections, Reivers in particular, and it would not have worked with the old style joint.

 Geifer wrote:

snip....... There's no room for nuance...........

How much nuance do you actually see at three feet away?

 Bull0 wrote:
Ah, good, as long as it seems plenty to you, I guess anyone who thinks differently is wrong.

Well, not to put to fine a point on it, but yes they would be. If the argument is to be anything other than a meaningless tautology("a ball-socket joint provides greater range of motion than a fixed waist") it has to rest on the premise that not having the additional range of motion afforded by the joint meaningfully impacts a person's ability to create varied poses(and, indeed, that was the contention) - but it doesn't, because as has been pointed out while a ball-socket joint technically permits 360 degree rotation and a fairly significant up-down rotation, in practice you can only achieve so many "man holding rifle two-handed" poses with that flexibility without making your miniature look like a mutant who's suffered a horrifying chiropractic accident.

People are mistaking the ability to tap a well of bitz that goes back decades to vary the composition of a miniature with the ability to change the pose of said miniature: remove the superficial detailing and "Marine walking forward aiming" or "Marine standing braced hipfiring" are the same poses regardless of what individual components are used to create those poses.

Primaris are more uniform in composition than oldMarines, but functionally I don't see how they end up with fewer poses "out of the box" given the ability to vary the combination of body, arms, head.

Yeah, if you impose limits like "exclusively two-handed rifle poses" it becomes a much smaller point to make, but I didn't do that. As for the range of 2-handed rifle poses available in the primaris kits versus the old kits, we disagree but somebody would have to make some physical examples to show you, and I value my time too much to spend a load of it doing that just to prove a point. Particularly not to you

There's far more credence to the idea that with the newly more detailed stomach sections, particularly on reivers, doing ball and socket on the torsos isn't possible without leading to very wrong-looking stomachs than the idea that you have just as much flexibility in a box with 2 sets of 5 poses than you do in a box with 10 legs and 10 torsos you can interchange and swivel as you please. Really very simple maths there. Never going to swing me on that and I think it's really very weird to try (who benefits from the loss of flexibility? Exactly two groups: people who like the more detailed stomach muscles that would've potentially looked wrong if poorly assembled before, and GW who can make cheaper kits)

 Crimson wrote:
Considering that you can freely mix Hellblaster and Intercessor kits, this means you have ten different base bodies for you power armoured Primaris guys you can further customise with arm and head positions. I'd imagine that this contains most positions that look sensible and could be assembled from more modular kits. And of course on top of that there are bunch of differently posed guys from the DI/easybuild sets. This seems plenty to me. And of course, as I already said earlier, due their segmented armour cutting and reposing marines is pretty damn easy if you need more options.

While I haven't compared every part of them, there are noticeably differences between hellblaster and intercessor kits like the extra hip plates on the hellblasters.

 warboss wrote:

While I haven't compared every part of them, there are noticeably differences between hellblaster and intercessor kits like the extra hip plates on the hellblasters.

Sure. But already in the Dark Imperium set some Hellblasters don't have those hip plates while some Intercessors do. Nothing is stopping you from gluing Intercessor arms on Hellblaster bodies and vice versa.

 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, if you impose limits like "exclusively two-handed rifle poses" it becomes a much smaller point to make, but I didn't do that. As for the range of 2-handed rifle poses available in the primaris kits versus the old kits, we disagree but somebody would have to make some physical examples to show you, and I'm nowhere near [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express that - Alpharius] enough to spend my time doing that just to prove a point.

First, you do realise you just used "autistic" as an insult to someone with an ASD, aye? No? Maybe just don't use it as an insult at all then. Second, it's not the imposition of a limit, the Primaris kits overwhelmingly contain that loadout, as do the most rational comparison point in the oldMarine range in Tacticals, what other criteria are we supposed to be using? But fine - pick any like-for-like comparison point in the SM range that has a Primaris equivalent, and I stand by my argument; you will not be able to create any meaningfully greater variety in poses with the oldMarine models.

There's far more credence to the idea that with the newly more detailed stomach sections, particularly on reivers, doing ball and socket on the torsos isn't possible without leading to very wrong-looking stomachs than the idea that you have just as much flexibility in a box with 2 sets of 5 poses than you do in a box with 10 legs and 10 torsos you can interchange and swivel as you please. Really very simple maths there. Never going to swing me on that and I think it's really very weird to try (who benefits from the loss of flexibility? Exactly two groups: people who like the more detailed stomach muscles that would've potentially looked wrong if poorly assembled before, and GW who can make cheaper kits)

The point is not who gains, but who loses? If there's no meaningful difference, and neither you nor anyone else has demonstrated there is as of yet, there's no meaningful loss and so no valid basis for complaint. As to your "really very simple maths" - look, if you're not even going to bother doing people the courtesy of reading their arguments before responding, what's the point? You're still conflating composition with pose. Go and have a look at the Tactical Squad again - there are ten different sets of legs and ten torsos with socket joints, sure: now count how many poses the legs actually have. I can only see five or six, which again despite the hypothetical range of motion offered by the waist joint can only be put together in certain ways if you want them to actually look appealing.

It is a fact that Primaris are more uniform than oldMarines, but they are more uniform in detailing not, in practice, in pose.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

snip....... There's no room for nuance...........

How much nuance do you actually see at three feet away?

And while we're at it, why should I bother painting the front of my models? I'm only going to see their back anyway. From three feet away to boot!

I'm not looking for game pieces. That's a welcome, secondary function, no question. But because I welcome it I need more models than if I just collected and displayed them. Which leads to a need for variety and individuality because I have no interest in painting the same model two, three, four or more times just to fill the ranks. The more options for different poses there are in the kit, the better. GW used to be better at this and now they're not, which I don't find particularly thrilling, is all I'm saying.

People are free to disagree on the extent of posability required to make models look interesting, but let's not pretend that nothing is lost by integrating torsos into legs (which would work just fine in producing an intended position through the use of a peg and hole, which many GW kits have). If GW put their mind to it, we could have both: a set position for those who want it, and free posability for those that don't. Instead, GW chooses for us and that's that. I don't find that appealing.

 Yodhrin wrote:

First, you do realise you just used "autistic" as an insult to someone with an ASD, aye? No? Maybe just don't use it as an insult at all then.

Well no, I wasn't using it to insult anyone, you've projected your own hangups onto me there. Maybe read what I said. I'm well aware you have an ASD because you bring it up all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But fine - pick any like-for-like comparison point in the SM range that has a Primaris equivalent, and I stand by my argument; you will not be able to create any meaningfully greater variety in poses with the oldMarine models.

Yeah, you're wrong, but I'm not going to sit here and do a powerpoint proving it to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
As to your "really very simple maths" - look, if you're not even going to bother doing people the courtesy of reading their arguments before responding, what's the point? You're still conflating composition with pose. Go and have a look at the Tactical Squad again - there are ten different sets of legs and ten torsos with socket joints, sure: now count how many poses the legs actually have. I can only see five or six, which again despite the hypothetical range of motion offered by the waist joint can only be put together in certain ways if you want them to actually look appealing

Now who's being insulting, implying I'm not reading your lary posts? Sadly for me I am. And the point is while there may only be 6 truly unique poses, that's still 6 versus 5, and the 4 that you would cite as dupes all have subtle variations anyway, etc. Why must we separate pose from composition anyway, i'm happy making that part of my argument - the greater possibility for variety in the old kits is a product of both their more modular nature and the greater diversity of constituent pieces. You can't partition off the facts that detract from your narrative. Well you can but it's, you know. Really stupid.

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

First, you do realise you just used "autistic" as an insult to someone with an ASD, aye? No? Maybe just don't use it as an insult at all then.

Well no, I wasn't using it to insult anyone, you've projected your own hangups onto me there. Maybe read what I said. I'm well aware you have an ASD because you bring it up all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But fine - pick any like-for-like comparison point in the SM range that has a Primaris equivalent, and I stand by my argument; you will not be able to create any meaningfully greater variety in poses with the oldMarine models.

Yeah, you're wrong, but I'm not going to sit here and do a powerpoint proving it to you.

The way you used it was definitely insulting, without projecting any hang ups on it.

I don't have enough of a dog in this fight to keep going; I don't have to prove to you guys that the new kits aren't as good for the modeller who likes their models to look diverse and unique, and spend time on poses, as the old kits were because it's self -evident, and your masochistic defence of the new kits does not resonate with me at all. I'm not gaking on your parade - you like the new models, I like the new models, but lets' not collectively suck GW's dicks over design choices that are regressive steps, for feth's sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

First, you do realise you just used "autistic" as an insult to someone with an ASD, aye? No? Maybe just don't use it as an insult at all then.

Well no, I wasn't using it to insult anyone, you've projected your own hangups onto me there. Maybe read what I said. I'm well aware you have an ASD because you bring it up all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But fine - pick any like-for-like comparison point in the SM range that has a Primaris equivalent, and I stand by my argument; you will not be able to create any meaningfully greater variety in poses with the oldMarine models.

Yeah, you're wrong, but I'm not going to sit here and do a powerpoint proving it to you.

The way you used it was definitely insulting, without projecting any hang ups on it.

Fine, I retract it, I'm not allowed to rip the piss out of my own laziness because Yodhrin finds that offensive. I clearly wasn't calling Yod autistic neither would I do so.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Intercessors only have 5 fixes poses isn't very surprising. That's exactly how the Reivers are.

Yes, and having built some Reivers, I have to say it works just fine. With different arm and head positions the models do not look samey, and if you still feel you need more options, cutting them from the waist (or any joint, really) and slightly adjusting the pose is super easy.

I beg to differ, I have seen multiple units of these things and they might as well be snap fit when there are enough of them. Theres almost nothing distinguishable about them throughout the unit. Whats worse is theres not really anything in their actual kit to make much of a difference.

I have to say these kits aside from the Aggressors and Inceptors are really lame at their price point. I give the former a pass sicne they seem to have more pose-ability and thus character. In regard to the Intercessors and Reivers though, it's like paying FU money for black reach guys upscaled, you have no real way to change their poses outside chopping the crap out of them and filling them back in, which normally I don't mind, but these guys just have that bland filler line troop look after all that work so why bother? Personally I'd go for ebaying the starter minis for cheaper. Not like you need more then the minimum anyways since they suck in game currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Space Wolf Packs were that way and they came out years ago. It is just much more efficient money wise to do it this way. As long as there are plenty of ways to differentiate the models that are the same across the two sprues, I don't have a problem with it.

But those were completely modular.

So...because the torso is attached to the legs, but the arms and heads are not, the Intercessors are not modular?

I think you may want to reread what he said more carefully, he said completely.

Yeah, I don't see it frankly. People lionise the old style of plastic Marines for their variability, but the simple truth is most of that variability is not pose, it's selection of bits. The reality when you're actually sitting down and building, say, 10 guys with bolters is that there's only a certain range of motion that works; the classic multipart style theoretically has more "angles" available to the torso sure, but the reality is the torso will be straight-on, canted a bit left, or canted a bit right. If you get too extreme with your choice of angles for the torso and arm joints, it just looks daft, and if you built an army out of just Tactical Marines straight from the box with poses that make sense for their loadouts it wouldn't look any more varied than an army of Primaris all built from the box.

The flaw with Primaris isn't that they have a series of "fixed" poses for the torso & legs, it's that they don't yet have enough variation in bits to adequately differentiate those standard poses(which, again, are functionally pretty much the same as the ones you'd "build" from the old kits, at least assuming you weren't depicting Marines from the Broken Spines chapter) without conversions.

Several Sergent weapon options, choice of heavy, choice of special, the guy scanning with an auspex another reloading, a ton of free hands that can be filled with knives and pistols or spare ammo. There are a lot of things you can do with the tactical kit, sure if you just go auto pilot on the bolter guys they can look similar but I have seen many tactical squads where every guy looked unique and distinguishable and part of it comes from parts variety. Being able to pivot the waste one way or the other isn't as small a factor as your making it out to be, I just assembled 60 chaos marines recently and I have guys with the gear that look wildly different because I can cantor left and turn his head the same way and make him appear to be looking over his shoulder away from his gun or leading with his pad like he's bracing for a charge or buy cantering and turning the head the other way give the impression he is firing on the move. If I can cook up 5 different poses for your regular bolter guy before I start using any of the variety of options for heads, legs or other details then I can easily end up with a ton of normal guys that each have their own flavor. New Primaris intercessors have some of that for sure but mostly it's helmet or no helmet. Having the hands attached to the fricken guns is just ridiculously daft to me.

So you agree then - the problem is there aren't yet enough bits to achieve the same level of variation. I still don't see how being able to choose different angles for the waist joint(but in reality almost always using the same small handful of poses, which are adequately provided in the Primaris poses) is a big deal. You can combine different sets of arms with different bodies to achieve the "shoulder charge" pose and others, and the hands have been attached to the guns on GW kits for ages now.

I don't agree. You could probably have just read what I wrote fully and gathered as much though. I mean, if you don't think being able to alter the entire upper plain of the torso is nothing special then we are not even operating on the same hobby level. That's fine, but don't try to tell someone with a sculpting background that limiting possibilities for pose on the entire upper axis of a miniature is minor lol. And that was only one element in my opinion, the hand welded to the fore grip is another major problem.

Primaris look very similar because they are very similar. They all use the same new type of armour with the same type of helmets. You don't have the mix of bits from different armours that the normal tactical squad has.

Yeah, you don't have heavy and special weapons but thats because they are a different unit with a different use. The cherrypiking between a ton of special and heavy weapons for your dudes is a Space Marine privilege, everyone can just select 2-3 weapons that are slighly diferent bot in look and rules (My Firewarriors can have literally two weapons to all of the squad. Thats all the variety I can choose. And like them, basically everybody that isn't a marine. Primaris are now like the rest of us)

If Primaris had the same number of poses and equipement options, but with different mark of armours for heads, legs and torsos, you'll end with basically the same variety as old space marine kits.

This is a preference thing. I like my troopers to be very similar. My Firewarriors follow the Imperial Stormtrooper (From SW) effect when I field them. A horde of samey dudes.
Other people like for their troops to have all different armours, etc... and thats fine. You have still the Tactical Kit for that. The variety in poses is good enough. I gladly pay for less poses if the models look more natural and better. And they look much more natural and better.

For horde armies, I prefer variety over "quality" in the poses of the model, because you just don't notice the rare poses here and there. But for an elite-like army, as Primaris, that isn't as noticiable.

TLR: Is correct that Primaris have less variety, bot in bits form, and in possability without entering the hobby knive to the ring. But at the same time, thats the price to pay (The possability, not the lack of different bits) for having them look much better.

 Galas wrote:
Primaris look very similar because they are very similar. They all use the same new type of armour with the same type of helmets. You don't have the mix of bits from different armours that the normal tactical squad has.

Yeah, you don't have heavy and special weapons but thats because they are a different unit with a different use. The cherrypiking between a ton of special and heavy weapons for your dudes is a Space Marine privilege, everyone can just select 2-3 weapons that are slighly diferent bot in look and rules (My Firewarriors can have literally two weapons to all of the squad. Thats all the variety I can choose. And like them, basically everybody that isn't a marine. Primaris are now like the rest of us)

If Primaris had the same number of poses and equipement options, but with different mark of armours for heads, legs and torsos, you'll end with basically the same variety.

This is a preference thing. I like my troopers to be very similar. My Firewarriors follow the Imperial Stormtrooper (From SW) effect when I field them. A horde of samey dudes.
Other people like for their troops to have all different armours, etc... and thats fine. You have still the Tactical Kit for that. The variety in poses is good enough. I gladly pay for less poses if the models look more natural and better. And they look much more natural and better.

For horde armies, I prefer variety over "quality" in the poses of the model, because you just don't notice the rare poses here and there. But for an elite-like army, as Primaris, that isn't as noticiable.

No, variation is not the only factor. Objectively speaking, the Intercessors have less pose-ability out of the box. Even if you take every special bit from the old tac kit, the ability to pivot the waste left, right, up and down alone means they have more variation stock. That isn't even factoring the intercessors hand being cast on the gun grip which also means less poses for the arms.

Those are facts based on the kit deigns, all these other arguments about the 3 foot rule or bits or opinions on certain extreme poses from the old kits being stupid are all subjective and nothing I bothered arguing because everyone is welcome to like what they like. What I don't agree with, is someone telling me less options for pose isn't a big deal because of their opinion on the matter.

There are less poses available without heavily modding the kit with a saw and greenstuff, if that doesn't matter to you then I am happy for you but don't try to tell me the old kits were somehow redundant just because you chose to glue all your guys together very similarly with little to no variety.

I'm not saying that. I'm agreein with you in the fact that they have less availible posses without entering in conversion.

What I disagree with is that "Less possability" is objetively bad. But when "less possability" means "more natural poses", it becomes a matter of what you value more in your models.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying that. I'm agreein with you in the fact that they have less availible posses without entering in conversion.

What I disagree with is that "Less possability" is objetively bad. But when "less possability" means "more natural poses", it becomes a matter of what you value more in your models.

It's a multipart kit designed to allow you to build your own unique model with the parts. The whole point of a multipart kit is to give the builder options. Having less options of pose straight out the box is objectively worse. Not sure why it's difficult for you to see the difference there. Someones idea of what is or is not a natural pose is entirely subjective.

No, the quality and naturality of a model isn't subjetive. But I'll leave this here, we are derrailing the topic.

 Red Corsair wrote:

It's a multipart kit designed to allow you to build your own unique model with the parts. The whole point of a multipart kit is to give the builder options. Having less options of pose straight out the box is objectively worse. Not sure why it's difficult for you to see the difference there. Someones idea of what is or is not a natural pose is entirely subjective.

It is not subjective that on the old marine kits the belt and the stomach cables/plates do not act naturally if you twist the torso. This is not the case with the primaris kits, as those parts have fixed torso/hip position, so the are can be sculpted to take that into account.

 Galas wrote:
Primaris look very similar because they are very similar. They all use the same new type of armour with the same type of helmets. You don't have the mix of bits from different armours that the normal tactical squad has.

Yeah, you don't have heavy and special weapons but thats because they are a different unit with a different use. The cherrypiking between a ton of special and heavy weapons for your dudes is a Space Marine privilege, everyone can just select 2-3 weapons that are slighly diferent bot in look and rules (My Firewarriors can have literally two weapons to all of the squad. Thats all the variety I can choose. And like them, basically everybody that isn't a marine. Primaris are now like the rest of us)

Your firewarriors (and mine too) have it built into the fluff that they don't take additional weapons because the basic weapon is made as powerful as possible (str5 30" range). That's an in universe army theme decided long before anyone ever bought a tau model ever and not a huge change to existing armies' only new infantry figures. Also, cherry picking one or two upgraded weapons in a squad is most certainly NOT a space marine privelege. At least in prior editions, it was true that IG can do it... so can SOB... and nids... and orks... and chaos marines... and dark eldar... on top of the over half dozen flavors of loyalist marines which by themselves make up most of the player base and sales. The only real exceptions that I can think of were Eldar and Tau. It's a huge change to disallow that with the new marine models and it certainly doesn't bring them into any imaginary parity with other factions in prior editions.

To be honest, as much as i love modular kits, there is only ever like 1-3 good poses that dont make them look like gak.

 warboss wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Primaris look very similar because they are very similar. They all use the same new type of armour with the same type of helmets. You don't have the mix of bits from different armours that the normal tactical squad has.

Yeah, you don't have heavy and special weapons but thats because they are a different unit with a different use. The cherrypiking between a ton of special and heavy weapons for your dudes is a Space Marine privilege, everyone can just select 2-3 weapons that are slighly diferent bot in look and rules (My Firewarriors can have literally two weapons to all of the squad. Thats all the variety I can choose. And like them, basically everybody that isn't a marine. Primaris are now like the rest of us)

Your firewarriors (and mine too) have it built into the fluff that they don't take additional weapons because the basic weapon is made as powerful as possible (str5 30" range). That's an in universe army theme decided long before anyone ever bought a tau model ever and not a huge change to existing armies' only new infantry figures. Also, cherry picking one or two upgraded weapons in a squad is most certainly NOT a space marine privelege. At least in prior editions, it was true that IG can do it... so can SOB... and nids... and orks... and chaos marines... and dark eldar... on top of the over half dozen flavors of loyalist marines which by themselves make up most of the player base and sales. The only real exceptions that I can think of were Eldar and Tau. It's a huge change to disallow that with the new marine models and it certainly doesn't bring them into any imaginary parity with other factions in prior editions.

And Primaris Marines have it buil into the fluff that they follow the Horus Heresy style of a squad all having the same weapon. Wheres the difference?