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Yes, i dont think Harlequins will get anywhere near as much love, but thats mostly b.c we are a small army wheres DE have nearly 10x the units.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes, i dont think Harlequins will get anywhere near as much love, but thats mostly b.c we are a small army wheres DE have nearly 10x the units.

which is unfortunate. i don't think harlequins would need more than a couple units to give it that much more of a punch. if the codex is not coupled with some new model releases, what can we expect? masque's, some stratagems ... is that all?

 beltenebros wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes, i dont think Harlequins will get anywhere near as much love, but thats mostly b.c we are a small army wheres DE have nearly 10x the units.

which is unfortunate. i don't think harlequins would need more than a couple units to give it that much more of a punch. if the codex is not coupled with some new model releases, what can we expect? masque's, some stratagems ... is that all?

Pretty much what most other factions got.

So I don't know much about the Harlequins and I'm just starting to do research. I'm not really an Eldar guy but I like the uniqueness and story of the Harlequins. Plus they are very opposite what I paint and play now which is Necrons and Nurgle. Colorful, fast, hit hard in combat, fragile. Opposite what I'm used to and it might be fun to try something totally different.
The DE reveals are a fantastic mix of unique and seemingly effective rules that are also fluffy which makes me keep an eye on the clowns for their book.
I'm not really interested in going full Eldar, I would just like to dip my toe in an exclusive Harley list. Even if it's a smaller 1k points.

Long story short, can the Harlequins stand on their own or are they pretty much just added bonuses to other existing Eldar armies.

As an Index army, they struggle. They have a hard time against hordes and mass weak shooting. They are good against elite units and high powered shooting.
Just wait 2 more weeks, the codex might change that.

I play pure Harlies, but purely for the enjoyment factor, rather than any hope of racking up significant wins.

Gotta be honest - the Codex armies tend to kick my backside all the way to the circus. That being said, it was often surprisingly competitive for a few turns if the opponent had no real knowledge/experience of playing Harlies. Against a Codex army I tend to enjoy "showing off" the various neat and fun things Harlequins can do (ignoring models/terrain, first turn charges thanks to RC, the buffs from Troupe Masters and Shadowseers and of course blitzing a Solitaire across the board to mangle an elite unit or a character) to try and rack up kills and spread chaos than focus outright on winning games where i'm overmatched.

I still find them pretty competitive against Index armies (Genestealer cults, orks, tau and necrons although i know the latter two have just had codexes hit) and you can get a good game.

I suppose the main problem is just eight units. Two of which arent particularly useful (Voidweaver and Death Jester) and one of which you can only take one of (Solitaire). As has been mentioned previously, the 2 CP interrupt strategem is an absolute chip-pisser when it looks like you're all set to mangle a bunch of units.

I definitely rack up more losses than wins these days, but they're still immensely fun to play.


EDIT - just like to say I too would really like to see the Harlequin's Kiss get a buff, it's the iconic Harlie weapon and it just seems a poor third choice to the Embrace and Caress

TopperHarley wrote:
I play pure Harlies, but purely for the enjoyment factor, rather than any hope of racking up significant wins.

Gotta be honest - the Codex armies tend to kick my backside all the way to the circus. That being said, it was often surprisingly competitive for a few turns if the opponent had no real knowledge/experience of playing Harlies. Against a Codex army I tend to enjoy "showing off" the various neat and fun things Harlequins can do (ignoring models/terrain, first turn charges thanks to RC, the buffs from Troupe Masters and Shadowseers and of course blitzing a Solitaire across the board to mangle an elite unit or a character) to try and rack up kills and spread chaos than focus outright on winning games where i'm overmatched.

I still find them pretty competitive against Index armies (Genestealer cults, orks, tau and necrons although i know the latter two have just had codexes hit) and you can get a good game.

I suppose the main problem is just eight units. Two of which arent particularly useful (Voidweaver and Death Jester) and one of which you can only take one of (Solitaire). As has been mentioned previously, the 2 CP interrupt strategem is an absolute chip-pisser when it looks like you're all set to mangle a bunch of units.

I definitely rack up more losses than wins these days, but they're still immensely fun to play.


EDIT - just like to say I too would really like to see the Harlequin's Kiss get a buff, it's the iconic Harlie weapon and it just seems a poor third choice to the Embrace and Caress

I think your problem also is only 8 units as well, i normally play with 15-17 units and have 0 problems, win most my games and the ones i lose is due to random objectives or just player error on my part.

I dont play with a lot of Troupes only 3 units of them (5man x5 Caress/FP), i do play with lots of Starweavers (6), Voidweavers (3), and now Skyweavers (4), Solitaire, and 2 Shadowseers. The 4 man Skyweaver with its already -1 to hit and hoping to get them to advance for another -1 to hit, they are my Anvil, everything else just fly's in circles for 2 turns. Shadowseers gets out and cast powers, solitair and skyweavers charging turn 1 if able (and you know fallback>shoot>charge again).


For my Harlequins are just so much fun, i've been playing DE lately now due to codex dropping, and even with the codex for DE, i still find harlequins more fun.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


I think your problem also is only 8 units as well, i normally play with 15-17 units and have 0 problems, win most my games and the ones i lose is due to random objectives or just player error on my part.

I dont play with a lot of Troupes only 3 units of them (5man x5 Caress/FP), i do play with lots of Starweavers (6), Voidweavers (3), and now Skyweavers (4), Solitaire, and 2 Shadowseers. The 4 man Skyweaver with its already -1 to hit and hoping to get them to advance for another -1 to hit, they are my Anvil, everything else just fly's in circles for 2 turns. Shadowseers gets out and cast powers, solitair and skyweavers charging turn 1 if able (and you know fallback>shoot>charge again).


For my Harlequins are just so much fun, i've been playing DE lately now due to codex dropping, and even with the codex for DE, i still find harlequins more fun.

You don't use any troupe masters?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think your problem also is only 8 units as well, i normally play with 15-17 units and have 0 problems, win most my games and the ones i lose is due to random objectives or just player error on my part.

I think he/she means 8 available units in the index, not 8 units on the table.

The 4 man Skyweaver with its already -1 to hit and hoping to get them to advance for another -1 to hit, they are my Anvil, everything else just fly's in circles for 2 turns.

What do you mean -2 to hit?

I always find Skyweavers to be very weak. They don't pack any punch, because 3 shots and 3 attacks will never amount to much. They're very scary for people who don't know much about Harlies, and useful to charge units and prevent them to shoot (but that doesn't work against properly screened or flying armies), but opponents who don't mind being charged by a weak unit will just ignore them and focus the Starweavers.

Harlies are still pretty decent for an index army, but they're very dependent on the match-up. Lots of troupes with fusion pistols can wreck monster/vehicle lists, but not much can be done against hordes.

fresus wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think your problem also is only 8 units as well, i normally play with 15-17 units and have 0 problems, win most my games and the ones i lose is due to random objectives or just player error on my part.

I think he/she means 8 available units in the index, not 8 units on the table.

The 4 man Skyweaver with its already -1 to hit and hoping to get them to advance for another -1 to hit, they are my Anvil, everything else just fly's in circles for 2 turns.

What do you mean -2 to hit?

I always find Skyweavers to be very weak. They don't pack any punch, because 3 shots and 3 attacks will never amount to much. They're very scary for people who don't know much about Harlies, and useful to charge units and prevent them to shoot (but that doesn't work against properly screened or flying armies), but opponents who don't mind being charged by a weak unit will just ignore them and focus the Starweavers.

Harlies are still pretty decent for an index army, but they're very dependent on the match-up. Lots of troupes with fusion pistols can wreck monster/vehicle lists, but not much can be done against hordes.

Mirage Launchers, powers for another -1 for "1 enemy unit'' (but against a key unit), easy to get a unit of Skyweavers alive once you take your turn.

Edit: To add:

Troupes are good, but if you take to many of them you over saturate them and they are high value targets to be shot at, so taking 4-5 units of them means you have 4-5 hard targets that the opponent wants to kill and wants to kill them fast our of fear. if you like troupes IMO you need a couple Dedicated shooting (FP's) and a couple dedicated melee, to make them cheaper and less of a threat, then you can also have more units on the table, 10 less FP's and 10 less melee weapons sounds bad, but that 150pts more you have now, thats nothing Troupe unit, and if 1 unit dies instead of 150pts dying you only lost 100pts.

You can go from 4 Troupes to 6 Troupes for the same points, they are slightly less killy, but they will go much farther in your games.


I Instead i have my Anvil unit of Skyweavers, 4-6 (depends how i want to play), i can get -2 to hit, 3++ (the -2 is against the key unit to shoot them, like 30 Devourer Gants, a Storm Raven, etc...) but even if other units like 5mna/10mans hoot them -1 and 3++ is amazing strong, sure 1 guy might die but you got 3-5 more, and once they are in melel its go over for your opponent

Yes, apologies for the confusion I meant 8 unit types to choose from, rather than me just owning 8 units!

I think Skyweavers are a pretty useful unit, I always give them the Zephyrglaives if I have the points. Their main asset (as with many Harlequin units) is their blinding speed. I do try to take Troupe Masters where possible, I think they're one of the better units Value-For-Points-wise, with a good number of attacks and that re-roll wounds aura.

Oh i forgot to talk about TM. I like them a lot, but i dont at the same time, I personalty just like the Shadowseers so much more, 2 of the powers are too good not to take (at least for me), i take them both with the same to powers and smite , this is just in case 1 dies. Their weapon isnt that bad either its a better Kiss. The -1 to wound and -1 to hit power, and even the HGL all together i just get much more use out of them than a TM. Sure its like 50pts more, but for me they always do way more work.

I also dont charge with more than 1 Troupe unit a turn, and since i play with 3 Troupe units its different for me.

I think if i was playing 4-5 units of Troupes, yeah i would take 1,

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Mirage Launchers, powers for another -1 for "1 enemy unit'' (but against a key unit), easy to get a unit of Skyweavers alive once you take your turn.

You mean Fog of dreams psychic power? It only gives -1 to hit when firing at infantry.

I find skyweavers over priced. They need either a points drop increase in attacks or strength and the ability to fire both the bike weapon and star bolas in the same turn. I'm thinking of taking voidweavers instead of skyweavers. Better shooting damage output, better toughness för a little less points.

Ok, you mean -1 to hit from Fog of Dreams? It doesn't affect Skyweavers, it only affects Infantry units.

fresus wrote:
Ok, you mean -1 to hit from Fog of Dreams? It doesn't affect Skyweavers, it only affects Infantry units.

You are 100% right, i forgot (been a bit since i play quins) I guess its just the -1 and 3++, either way, they have never died.

I thought i gave them -1 to hit tho, just memory mix up, playing 3 Aeldari armies will do that i guess, especially when you can get up to -3 on some units.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I Instead i have my Anvil unit of Skyweavers, 4-6 (depends how i want to play), i can get -2 to hit, 3++ (the -2 is against the key unit to shoot them, like 30 Devourer Gants, a Storm Raven, etc...) but even if other units like 5mna/10mans hoot them -1 and 3++ is amazing strong, sure 1 guy might die but you got 3-5 more, and once they are in melel its go over for your opponent

Uhh I'm not sure about that statement. Skyweavers have 3 attacks apiece at WS3. On average they are hitting twice and against MEQ you are only wounding once. They do 2D, which is nice, but unless its primaris, 1D is wasted on that MEQ. After saving throws, your unit of 6 bikes kills an average of 4 marines on the charge...

I do care about their melee damage, just like the everything in my army, its shoot, melee, and stopping other things from hurting me. My 4-6 bikes are charging things that would be shooting units.

Move+Advance. Shoot unit (like Havocs) charge them, get a wound in or 2, my next turn repeat to a different unit.

Or like Razorback spam, or IG tank spam, charge as many tanks as i can.

Did all of you guys see the leak about the webway portal model: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/754328.page ? It's a very solid rumor, as the guys gave perfect info on the previous codex (they clearly had the time to read it carefully).
I've watched the part of the video where they discuss the new model, and they're a bit elusive on what it does exactly (they compare it to the new necron pylon, but I don't know its rules). I don't know how many units will be able to be brought from the webway with this, but it seems interesting.
Really not what I was expecting, and I'm glad to see a new model come in (we'll see if it's Harlequin specific or not).

I did not will look now tho

fresus wrote:
Did all of you guys see the leak about the webway portal model: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/754328.page ? It's a very solid rumor, as the guys gave perfect info on the previous codex (they clearly had the time to read it carefully).
I've watched the part of the video where they discuss the new model, and they're a bit elusive on what it does exactly (they compare it to the new necron pylon, but I don't know its rules). I don't know how many units will be able to be brought from the webway with this, but it seems interesting.
Really not what I was expecting, and I'm glad to see a new model come in (we'll see if it's Harlequin specific or not).

Ehh... If there's one thing harlequins don't really need it's another deepstrike method of deployment. That is, assuming our stratagems and transports/skyweavers remain the same.

And if it's akin to the Monolith rules... well. There's a reason why Necron players don't run them.

Normal deepstrike isn't that great for Harlequins, because it leaves players vulnerable, unless you can twilight pathways the deep-striked unit.
From the video and monolith rules, I understand the deployment rules would be something like: when you set up the portal, you can also set up as many harlequin units as you want in the webway for free (infantry, probably bikers, probably not vehicles/monsters). Then, at the beginning of each of your movement phase, a single unit that was setup in the webway can be placed within 3" of the portal, and is allowed to move afterwards (so much better than normal DS). If the portal is destroyed before all the units were deployed, you can pay a CP to deploy them with normal DS rules.

Also, in the video one of the two guys said the first codex will be Harlies, while the other said it will be DW. So who knows.

fresus wrote:
Normal deepstrike isn't that great for Harlequins, because it leaves players vulnerable, unless you can twilight pathways the deep-striked unit.
From the video and monolith rules, I understand the deployment rules would be something like: when you set up the portal, you can also set up as many harlequin units as you want in the webway for free (infantry, probably bikers, probably not vehicles/monsters). Then, at the beginning of each of your movement phase, a single unit that was setup in the webway can be placed within 3" of the portal, and is allowed to move afterwards (so much better than normal DS). If the portal is destroyed before all the units were deployed, you can pay a CP to deploy them with normal DS rules.

Also, in the video one of the two guys said the first codex will be Harlies, while the other said it will be DW. So who knows.

Well it seems like a bit of the DW codex has been leaked, maybe they're first.

Yeah, like I said, there's a reason Necron players don't really use the monolith's deployment; you don't actually get to move thereafter. Granted, I didn't watch the video, but if they said it's the same as the Monolith, then it's a resounding meh. We already have great ways of closing in on the enemy.

willow wrote:
Yeah, like I said, there's a reason Necron players don't really use the monolith's deployment; you don't actually get to move thereafter. Granted, I didn't watch the video, but if they said it's the same as the Monolith, then it's a resounding meh. We already have great ways of closing in on the enemy.

They only mentioned the Monolith in regards to the stratagem that allows you to bring units even if the monolith was destroyed.
But yeah, since you have to set up the portal 12" away from enemies, and you can disembark up to 3" away, it matches the typical 9" distance you get from DS rules, which is a good indication that maybe we won't be able to move after deepstriking.
If that's the case, it's pretty useless for Harlequins. A lone troupe 9" away from enemy is just asking to get shot to death, especially when good transports exist.

I watched the french video and one of the dudes said the codex is going to be one of the worst ones. The other said it's not that bad. And then the discussion more or less went on like: "as a standalone codex?" "no, it's not good as a pure army, but I can see some uses as a soup addition to other Eldar."

I hope they are wrong...

Weidekuh wrote:
I watched the french video and one of the dudes said the codex is going to be one of the worst ones. The other said it's not that bad. And then the discussion more or less went on like: "as a standalone codex?" "no, it's not good as a pure army, but I can see some uses as a soup addition to other Eldar."

I hope they are wrong...

Its going to get the GK treatment "for now", honestly the Harlequin index isnt bad at all, some stratagems, relics, and a few traits will really help. If anything gets cheaper it will help a lot.
Harlequins will still have some weakness, but every codex honestly should. and for us fighting against mass attacks is just that lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
I watched the french video and one of the dudes said the codex is going to be one of the worst ones. The other said it's not that bad. And then the discussion more or less went on like: "as a standalone codex?" "no, it's not good as a pure army, but I can see some uses as a soup addition to other Eldar."

I hope they are wrong...

Its going to get the GK treatment "for now", honestly the Harlequin index isnt bad at all, some stratagems, relics, and a few traits will really help. If anything gets cheaper it will help a lot.
Harlequins will still have some weakness, but every codex honestly should. and for us fighting against mass attacks is just that lol.

If worse means unchanged from the index, I could live with that. They're relatively viable as a standalone, you're just facing an uphill battle because they're so fragile.

There aren't many armies that can cover a table width in T1 and lock in multiple units, and we should try and exploit that as much as possible.

The GK codex might be worse than the index, so they're always a risk.
Fusion pistols are pretty cheap for what they are, especially when you can have 6 in an open-topped vehicle. If the codex nerf them, but doesn't give anything very good in exchange, the codex could be awful. But since there was no nerf in CA, I suppose it's unlikely we'll see one.

At the very least we should get proper Masque tactics, so we'll get a much needed variety.

fresus wrote:
The GK codex might be worse than the index, so they're always a risk.
Fusion pistols are pretty cheap for what they are, especially when you can have 6 in an open-topped vehicle. If the codex nerf them, but doesn't give anything very good in exchange, the codex could be awful. But since there was no nerf in CA, I suppose it's unlikely we'll see one.

At the very least we should get proper Masque tactics, so we'll get a much needed variety.

I only said the GK codex b.c i meant how little was added, we are not going to get a Tyranids or DE type of release for sure. Fusion Pistols will stay the same, its the same in CWE, its the same for all Imperial Inferno pistols. There are something like 9 or 10 codei that have 9pt "metla" pistols.

Well Harlequin is probably the worst selling faction with a very small and non vocal playgroup so I can understand that they don't put as much effort into it. I just hope they get some cool tricks and are decent enough to not feel powerless.

Harlies have a world of potential with the codex. Just imagine if they worked it out as per the last Codex Warlord Traits. 6 or so Troupe choices, Light/Twilight/Dark variations of each set of rules.... It could potentially be amazing.

Even a dex with limited datasheets can get a big boost with lots of options. I will keep my hopes up for the Harlies release, I still love that they arrived at all!