Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Whatever the rules are, acts of faith seem better for armies with fewer sisters in. Basically if you've only got a few units of sisters, each one is more likely to get acts of faith used on it each turn. This effectively makes them more efficient.
I'm seriously thinking that a "crusade" type army might be the best way to play at the moment. Maybe bring a detachment of mechs for robots, snipers and onagers and a mixed detachment with things like retributors, plasma scions and so on. Maybe bring a knight. It seems like a way to turn several small (and arguably incomplete) lists into one complete one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 18:45:15
Larger units also benefit more from AoFs than smaller ones. Fifteen sisters firing their boltguns twice does three times the attacks as an MSU of five.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Rubenite wrote: The restriction is right there in the Acts of Faith special rule:
...one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn...
You can't just ignore these sentences when using the Imagifier or Celestine. Their abilities do not specifically override the need to have the Acts of Faith ability, as is stated in the Acts of Faith ability which they are allowing you to access (in addition to your once per turn 2+).
Is it worded poorly? Absolutely. But the intent is there.
For a precedent, consider Ynnari Soulburst actions that were later clarified to not work on vehicles using similar 'loopholes', as they did not possess the Strength from Death special rule. There are no 'vehicles' anymore, but there are models that specifically do not have the Acts of Faith ability in the same vein. If you're building lists around using Acts of Faith on Exorcists, then IMO you are wasting your time.
Intent is largely irrelevant unless there's ambiguity; and the big issue with this is that there isn't ambiguity in the rule, it just feels weird for units without AoF to use AoF and GW's history of poor rules writing reinforces that. As written it's very clear that Celestine and Imagifiers can put AoFs on Vehicles. In fact, with the more permissive ruling the whole system seems to be nuanced and elegant, whereas the more restrictive reading makes it seem a lot like the shield of faith Deny the Witch; i.e. something incredibly cool and fluffy that they didn't put a whole lot of time and effort into making sure actually worked on the tabletop.
I personally do think that they meant to only allow AoFs to work on Sisters infantry(and motherfething crusaders for some goddam stupid fething reason) and they just forgot to say that. I just think that's pretty lame because it makes taking more than 1 imagifier in Sisters lists that don't revolve around multiple units of retributors and/or seraphim and/or blob infantry wasteful. Sisters of Battle are arguably the most mechanized army in the game now(Guard put a lot of points into conscripts and HWTs these days) and we have an army wide special rule that doesn't work on vehicles.
They should just make an elite unit that is a cross between crusaders and Celestians. Better yet, let Celestians take power swords and combat shields fairly cheaply, so there's a reason to take Celestians other than as throwaway wounds for characters.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I appreciate the discussion here and I'll be submitting to the GW Facebook page to try and get this addressed.
I'll also be suggesting that they move the activation of the Acts of Faith ability to the start of the shooting phase - just like Imperial Guard Orders. This would mean:
- Extra movement works the same (just after movement rather than before)
- Disembarking followed by an Act of Faith
- Deep Striking Seraphim allowed an Act of Faith
- Extra shooting more maneuverable but heavy weapons now susceptible to -1 if they previously moved
- Extra combat works the same (as still prior to pistol shots)
- Healing works the same (other than now being after Hospitaller)
Would this break the game? Seems like this would allow them to be used in the way in which they were intended.
I agree it would work better that way, but I think it's this way on purpose. Dominions that could fire their meltas twice on turn one would arguably be twice as good, making them very hard to put a price on. What imperial player wouldn't take them?
There are some small advantages to having faith at the start of the turn. You might get to kill a unit in melee, then charge another. You might shoot, then embark and run away. It's mainly worse of course, but in some ways it's better. It's clearly intended to be this way.
My suggestion is to always take a unit of heavy bolter rets. They will almost always have something to fire at. Alternatively Seraphim will always want to move, shoot or hit people (or rather, shoot them with their pistols).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 19:57:34
Start of turn allows you to shoot a unit, see thr outcome then change your move accordingly. I think a smaller, but still useful tweak would be to allow embarked units to use the move AoF to disemark.
Mavnas wrote: Start of turn allows you to shoot a unit, see thr outcome then change your move accordingly. I think a smaller, but still useful tweak would be to allow embarked units to use the move AoF to disemark.
I think an even smaller, but still useful, tweak would be to just allow embarked units to use AoF.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Mandragola wrote: Dominions that could fire their meltas twice on turn one would arguably be twice as good, making them very hard to put a price on. What imperial player wouldn't take them?
True this would be somewhat OP to say the least. That's a 60 wound potential right there!
Mavnas null wrote: Start of turn allows you to shoot a unit, see thr outcome then change your move accordingly. I think a smaller, but still useful tweak would be to allow embarked units to use the move AoF to disemark.
I'm intrigued - how would this be useful? I must be missing something as you can disembark in the movement phase and act normally so I can't see what you gain? Other than disembarking an Imagifier to then use her ability on a nearby unit - which would be costly, risky, but potentially awesome.
Here's the list of FAQ items I just drafted. Keen for feedback and any additional items that I may have missed. My goal is to have this stand out from the poorly formatted and horribly phrased waffle they get posted on their wall so that it definitely gets passed along to the design team:
Hi team, just wanted to submit a compliation of 'Index: Imperium 2' Adeptus Ministorum / Adepta Sororitas rules queries to please pass to the studio for a future FAQ:
- Units that DO NOT possess the 'Acts of Faith' ability but still have the <ORDER> or <ADEPTA SORORITAS> keywords - can they perform an Act of Faith as a result of the Imagifier's 'Simulacrum Imperialis' ability or Celestine's 'Saintly Blessings' ability? The wording of these abilities does not make it clear if the target unit also requires the Acts of Faith ability to be able to perform the Act of Faith.
- Acts of Faith do not seem to occur during a phase, as defined by the phases listed in the Core Rules. As such, in Matched Play, is there any restriction on using the same stratagem (such as the Command Reroll) multiple times whilst testing for Act of Faiths and while resolving their effects?
- The Retributor Superior has a leadership characteristic of 7, whereas every other unit's Superiors have a leadership of at least 8. Is this a typo?
- Celestine seems to be missing the unique model restriction.
- If Celestine has died a second time (after being revived the first time using her Miraculous Intervention ability) and there are still Geminae Superia alive, can she be further revived by using a 'Spirit of the Martyr' Act of Faith or the Hospitaller's 'Healer' ability? (On a side note, if an additional ability was added to her datasheet to allow for wounds to always be allocated to the Geminae first, even if Celestine is wounded and they are not, this would mitigate this possibility for a cheeky further revival).
- Should Seraphim's 'Angelic Visage' ability read "you *CAN* reroll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves for this unit"? Presently if they are affected by Celestine's Beacon of Faith ability they are forced to reroll rolls of 5 when making a Shield of Faith Invulnerable save, as modifiers are applied after rerolls. Adding the word 'can' would allow the player to choose not to reroll the 5s and then make the save.
- The Seraphim Hand Flamer has D6 hits instead of D3 as seen on a weapon with the same name in Index Imperium 1. Please do not change this, but to avoid confusion could these weapons be renamed to a 'Sororitas Hand Flamer'?
- The Adeptus Ministorum Storm Bolter costs are listed at 4pts - this is inconsistent with every other imperial army receiving them for only 2pts (including Sisters of Silence and the Sororitas Repressor). Is this a mistake?
- The last wargear option on the Canoness is unclear as to whether she can trade both weapons for Pistols/Ranged Weapons or just one. Whilst of course two combi-weapons would be silly, a Canoness with two plasma pistols was previously possible and a very popular (and awesome!) conversion.
- Similary, it is not currently possible for a Superior in any unit to take a Boltgun and a Power Weapon, which a lot of the available models actually have on them.
- If the Penitent Engine's 'Desperate for Redemption' ability successfully activates, can your opponent activate the 'Counter Offensive' stratagem to attack with one of their own units before the second lot of attacks resolves?
- In the Adeptus Ministorum ranged weapons summary, the Twin Multi-Melta is missing its ability as seen on the Immolator datasheet.
FORGEWORLD
Some small quick questions for the forgeworld team for 'Imperial Armour Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes'.
- If the Sororitas Repressor uses its smoke launchers ability, can the embarked unit still shoot using the Firing Ports ability?
- Is the wargear option for an additional Heavy Flamer or Storm Bolter intended to replace any of Repressor's standard weapons?
- If the Repressor is within 1" of an enemy unit, can the embarked unit still fire during the shooting phase using the Firing Ports ability? If so, what restrictions (if any) are in place for this shooting attack?
- As the Repressor can only carry <ORDER> infantry, it may not carry the Hospitaller and Dialogus. Was this intended? Why not restrict it to <ADEPTA SORORITAS> infantry instead?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 03:23:35
Hi all, going to a 2000 point major next weekend, 100 man tournament at element, with most of the UK's top competitive players. I'm going to be taking pure sisters, and wondering how is best to run them. I've gotten a fair few practice games in, and having a few issues.
This is the list I've got right now but thinking of changing it up. The premise is that one repressor contains 10 meltas, two have five+canoness, and then two repressors with HFs in (10 and 5), using the imagifiers to get the turn one bomb.
Detachment 1 – Vanguard
Celestine + Geminae - 250
Imagifier x3 – 120
I've played a four knight list however the other day, and 15 meltaguns turn one did sweet feth all to a knight, not even reducing it past half wounds. How are you guys dealing with knights? Can't even take penitents since I'm sticking to the Sisters of Battle keyword in the hopes I can snag best sisters.
Hi all, going to a 2000 point major next weekend, 100 man tournament at element, with most of the UK's top competitive players. I'm going to be taking pure sisters, and wondering how is best to run them. I've gotten a fair few practice games in, and having a few issues.
This is the list I've got right now but thinking of changing it up. The premise is that one repressor contains 10 meltas, two have five+canoness, and then two repressors with HFs in (10 and 5), using the imagifiers to get the turn one bomb.
Detachment 1 – Vanguard
Celestine + Geminae - 250
Imagifier x3 – 120
I've played a four knight list however the other day, and 15 meltaguns turn one did sweet feth all to a knight, not even reducing it past half wounds. How are you guys dealing with knights? Can't even take penitents since I'm sticking to the Sisters of Battle keyword in the hopes I can snag best sisters.
The Repressors that have 5 Doms + Canoness - you realise they can't use the Vanguard move at the start of the game or benefit from the Canoness' buff whilst embarked, right? Also check with the TO about what Imagifier ruling their going with if you're planning on using it on the Rets full of Heavy Flamers.
Knights are hard to deal with if you take a TAC list, you will have to out play for objectives, i'd suggest paying maelstrom against them.
You can ally in Command Tempest squads for really cheap DSing, Dbl tapping Plasma with supercharge, thats 8 S8 shots for 73pts that is -3ap and 2 damage.
Thats 6 damage average, you can take a Tempest PRimet to re-rolls as well, tho i would rather just take another one of these units for like 30pts more.
Is 150pts worth killing 1/2 a knight to you? When you add everything else from your army you will kill a knight turn 1, if they are playing 5 knights then 2 of them wont be very good at shooting, kill the Crusader 1st ASASP and you should be able to win easily
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 23:16:20
So, I played my first game of 8e as Sisters yesterday. [And was victorious, but it was kind of like kicking puppies.]
I think Faith works just fine at the start of the turn.
I do think that units inside of transports should be able to make use of the ability to move their transport, fire from it's fire points, or resurrect dead comrades.
I also wish there was some superior scaling to Acts of Faith. We basically get 2 for every game, no matter how big it is. Imagifiers are by no means worth 40 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 23:22:44
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Even then they're really not worth it. 50% is far too variable for what is basically just a multiwound celestian with such a minor buff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 23:45:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I would add to the FAQ a question about the price of stormbolters. Both Marines and inquisition that generally pay the same price for other special weapons as us get them for 2, whereas they cost us 4?₩
Good idea - updated. I think this was a mistake, we're the only imperial army to have it. Sisters of Silence even only pay 2pts. And on the Sororitas Repressor it only costs 2pts.
Plus, a Sororitas Rhino at 73pts base makes much more sense rounding out at 75 than 77.
I've already been including tons of them in my lists, even at 4pts. If they are reduced to just 2, then that will be the final nail in the flamer coffin IMO. 8" of overwatch just isn't reliable enough when units are deepstriking 9" away and charging.
Rubenite wrote: Good idea - updated. I think this was a mistake, we're the only imperial army to have it. Sisters of Silence even only pay 2pts. And on the Sororitas Repressor it only costs 2pts.
Plus, a Sororitas Rhino at 73pts base makes much more sense rounding out at 75 than 77.
I've already been including tons of them in my lists, even at 4pts. If they are reduced to just 2, then that will be the final nail in the flamer coffin IMO. 8" of overwatch just isn't reliable enough when units are deepstriking 9" away and charging.
That might be why they're 4 points?
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Bionid wrote: Hi all, going to a 2000 point major next weekend, 100 man tournament at element, with most of the UK's top competitive players. I'm going to be taking pure sisters, and wondering how is best to run them. I've gotten a fair few practice games in, and having a few issues.
This is the list I've got right now but thinking of changing it up. The premise is that one repressor contains 10 meltas, two have five+canoness, and then two repressors with HFs in (10 and 5), using the imagifiers to get the turn one bomb.
Detachment 1 – Vanguard
Celestine + Geminae - 250
Imagifier x3 – 120
I've played a four knight list however the other day, and 15 meltaguns turn one did sweet feth all to a knight, not even reducing it past half wounds. How are you guys dealing with knights? Can't even take penitents since I'm sticking to the Sisters of Battle keyword in the hopes I can snag best sisters.
You should change out 3 repressors to immolators. You don't have much in the way of screening and 9" deepstrikers will eat the repressors alive (especially if they're nids) and you won't be able to overwatch (people inside transports can't overwatch) and only the immolation flamer has a 12" range.
Then you have all the other issues like: Canonesses stop you from vanguarding and don't buff the units inside; putting 10 meltas or 10 hfs in the same tranports means that if you don't get first turn you just gave your opponent a giant neon sign that says 'Kill this first!' AND you're wasting points on 2 HFs and 4 Meltaguns even though they won't be able to shoot until the transport dies and would be more useful as wound soaks for when their ride blows up.
And with 11 drops You basically can't beat a knight list because they'll just pop the scariest transports before they move.
At 4 points, they're still a bargain. If you run a Dominion-based MSU force, they're basically your standard firearm. 4 points per model is a small price to pay to effectively double your damage output.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 08:05:56
Could you add this to your FAQ rubenite? Note the fact that hospitaller and imagifier don't have the <order> keyword so therefore can't ride in repressors. Is this intentional or is the repressor supposed to include adepta sororitas keyword in its keyword abilities?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/22 18:16:22
Twoshoes23 wrote: Could you add this to your FAQ rubenite? Note the fact that hospitaller and imagifier don't have the <order> keyword so therefore can't ride in repressors. Is this intentional or is the repressor supposed to include adepta sororitas keyword in its keyword abilities?
Thanks - I've added this to the Forgeworld section. Assuming you meant Dialogus rather than Imagifier as she does have the <ORDER> keyword.
It's definitely right that the Hospitaller and Dialogus don't have the <ORDER> keyword as of course they hail from the Orders Hospitaller and Orders Dialogus, but it's definitely worth asking why the Repressor is limited to <ORDER> infantry and not <ADEPTA SORORITAS>.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm going to leave my questions up over the weekend and then send them to GW on Monday. So great that we have a new GW that let you do this. Reminds me of the good old days when you'd email the mail order trolls for rules clarifications
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 21:15:45
You should change out 3 repressors to immolators. You don't have much in the way of screening and 9" deepstrikers will eat the repressors alive (especially if they're nids) and you won't be able to overwatch (people inside transports can't overwatch) and only the immolation flamer has a 12" range.
Then you have all the other issues like: Canonesses stop you from vanguarding and don't buff the units inside; putting 10 meltas or 10 hfs in the same tranports means that if you don't get first turn you just gave your opponent a giant neon sign that says 'Kill this first!' AND you're wasting points on 2 HFs and 4 Meltaguns even though they won't be able to shoot until the transport dies and would be more useful as wound soaks for when their ride blows up.
And with 11 drops You basically can't beat a knight list because they'll just pop the scariest transports before they move.
Immolators are a good idea, I'll probably end up with the 3 heavy flamer units in an Immolator each.
The Canoness stops vanguard, but it gives the compulsory HQ a use by bringing the 6th Meltagun into the transport. Since the 10 man would be further up than the rest, armywide AoF goes on Celestine who jumps up and uses her AoF on the Repressor thats pushed up. Then the imagifiers use it on the other Meltas if possible.
The compulsory canoness is an awkward point due to the mission type. Gunline is discouraged by each mission having Maelstrom, Eternal War as well as the tertiary elements. Can't have a heavy bolter back line as that will do nothing towards the mission for me except hold one objective in my own deployment zone.
Yeah I'll never get less drops than a knight army so they'll be going first, but the place has very good LoS terrain on each table.
Detachment 3 – Spearhead
Canoness, combi-melta – 64
Retributorsx5, HFx5 – 113
Retributorsx5, HFx5 - 113
Retributorsx5, HFx5 - 113
Immolator: IF – 103
Immolator: IF – 103
Immolator: IF - 103
total: 1986
Obviously having the extra command points is worth the point tax for them but I'm still not really sure what to do with the canoness'.
edit: meltaguns to combi on canoness'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 21:24:00
Canoness can't take meltaguns. Do you mean Combi-Melta? if so, you need to pay 19 for those.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Speaking of Canoness, in the old times they loved having an eviscerator and I have to say that I quite like paying for it in 8th.
4 attacks S6 ap-3 D3 damage hitting on 3s reroll 1 is actually quite nice.
She usually hangs out by the rets and exos, but when stuff comes this way, I often either charge a small thing bothering me or use the counter-charge stratagem with her to soften up the ennemy's punch.
We're paying for that 2+ WS and 4 attack, at least it makes the best out of it for a cheap-ish investment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 21:55:03
The only problem I have with the Canoness is that Celestine is just too damn good. She'll tear through half an army before our poor ground-pounding Canoness gets to touch a damned thing.
At the very least, she makes for a solid bodyguard for your shooting units. But she really needs access to a jump pack.
So I've been thinking about the list I want to run, and Basilisks look almost identical to Excorcists, with higher strength, higher range, extra shots, and no need for line of sight. For this they lose two points of armor penetration, and Shield of Faith. Also, they cost 50 points less.
Am I crazy to take the standard Outrider Detatchment of Sisters, and then shore them up with a Spearhead detachment of guard? The list would look like:
Outrider (1348)
Celestine and Friends
Melta Doms X3
Full Squad of Seraphim With Flamers
1x Squad of 15 Regular Sisters with 3 Storm Bolters
MM Immos x3
Imagifier
Spearhead (651 pts)
Lord Commissar
Platoon Commander
48 Conscripts (Can't afford the full 50 under 2000 pts)
4 Basilisks
This list comes in at 1999 points, and seems to check all of the important boxes for 8th. Long range high strength, High Rate of Fire blobs of dudes. Melta, Flying Flamers.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
