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You can't assume a gemina needs to die twice, Celestine costs 200, and dies in one turn of shooting (pick any 2 of the previous assumptions).

Well, OK maybe we just haven't found the optimal units.

Hot shot las (FRFSRF): 4 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 2/3 wounds

I was about to do the math for plasma, but actually these work better somehow. You'd need 27 of these or 6 squads + 3 tempestor primes. That's 420 points. Plasma is slightly less efficient (and also you can't spam 6 command squads). Volley guns are 55% more efficient when not moving (2/3 to wound and reroll 1s to hit since they don't need FRF).

Actually, volley guns do 4 * 7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 28/27s (about 1) damage each. So 8 of these, 10 hot shot las, and 2 TPs = about 15 damage for 324. (You can then easily do 1-3 more points for under 70).

Granted, volley guns won't be common. I don't think they have many other optimal targets.

Mavnas wrote:
You can't assume a gemina needs to die twice, Celestine costs 200, and dies in one turn of shooting (pick any 2 of the previous assumptions).

Well, OK maybe we just haven't found the optimal units.

Hot shot las (FRFSRF): 4 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 2/3 wounds

I was about to do the math for plasma, but actually these work better somehow. You'd need 27 of these or 6 squads + 3 tempestor primes. That's 420 points. Plasma is slightly less efficient (and also you can't spam 6 command squads). Volley guns are 55% more efficient when not moving (2/3 to wound and reroll 1s to hit since they don't need FRF).

Actually, volley guns do 4 * 7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 28/27s (about 1) damage each. So 8 of these, 10 hot shot las, and 2 TPs = about 15 damage for 324. (You can then easily do 1-3 more points for under 70).

Granted, volley guns won't be common. I don't think they have many other optimal targets.

Okay, well there you have it. Lascannons aren't the optimal weapon for killing Celestine, Hotshot Lasguns, Volley Guns, and Tempestor Primes are. That makes sense - AP -2 is the ideal AP for killing her, and you're not going overboard on Strength with by having S7+, so there's no points being wasted.
Still, that means that Celestine is about as tanky as any other unit against the optimal enemy - Around 150-175%. I started this whole argument against the idea that Celestine is very fragile in this edition - She's not. She's above-average tanky against nonoptimal weapons, and is about as durable as anything else against the ideal opponent.

(Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
(Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)

Actually, this brings up an important discussion. Since she gets back up immediately now, it seems like additional wounds on her at time of death wouldn't go away? (i.e. if she ate 4 lascannon shots and died on the 2nd, is there any rule allowing us to disregard 3 and 4?) I feel like there should be, but I really, really hate the fact that she gets back up immediately. I think we were mostly thinking Lascannons since they have so much range they can hit her most places where she could be placed and also still be useful next turn.

 Melissia wrote:
While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...

And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"

Mavnas wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
(Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)

Actually, this brings up an important discussion. Since she gets back up immediately now, it seems like additional wounds on her at time of death wouldn't go away? (i.e. if she ate 4 lascannon shots and died on the 2nd, is there any rule allowing us to disregard 3 and 4?) I feel like there should be, but I really, really hate the fact that she gets back up immediately. I think we were mostly thinking Lascannons since they have so much range they can hit her most places where she could be placed and also still be useful next turn.

If she is removed from play (ie: Dead) then any wounds went with her. All 4 shots resolved at the same time, it just happened to be (for the purposes of speedy gamer play) you marked her dead on #2 hit. She wouldn't rez in a millisecond and be standing in the same incoming lasfire for shots 3-4. If she's dead, her body guards are too most likely - so rez anywhere you like (9" rule applies).

Taikishi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...

And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"

True.

So I could definitely see a "Holy Crusade" list with guard, ecclesiarchy, and some sisters, both in rules and in fluff. That the Ecclesiarchy stuff specifically buffs guard encourages their use together. Priests give all Astra Militaritum units near them +1 attack (this, amusingly enough, includes Mlitaritium vehicles, because it says units, not infantry), and Jacobus (being an HQ-slot super-priest) has a 6" radius +1Ld buff alongside it.

Taikishi wrote:
That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.

Thing is, points value isn't just calculated on damage output - but resilience as well. The exorcist has T8 and 12 wounds, and a 6++. The predator has T7 and 11 wounds.

You may prefer to go for the lighter, shootier predator. Exorcists live a bit longer though.

Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.

That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.

Mandragola wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.

Thing is, points value isn't just calculated on damage output - but resilience as well. The exorcist has T8 and 12 wounds, and a 6++. The predator has T7 and 11 wounds.

You may prefer to go for the lighter, shootier predator. Exorcists live a bit longer though.

I thought I brought that up. I admit I could be wrong, but +1T, +1 wound, and a 6++ aren't enough to justify the points difference being what it is. I'd math it now but I don't have a lot of time atm; but I promise that if anyone wants me to math out the difference, I'll do it. Otherwise I'll just leave it be.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.

That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.

We are far removed from the pre Imperial Agents 125 point Exorcist aren't we? I gave up on fielding Exorcists for AT about the time they started allowing double CAD's anyways. I agree that our best bet is in our infantry. Doms trucking in Repressors and small Seraphim squads with one Inferno girl cost as much as one with two of the now nerfed hand flamer girls.

Six of each and you still have points for a Canoness with some HB Rets, an Imagifer to go along with them and Celestine to lead from the front.

I am still trying to figure out how to fit BSS squads into a list and get some kind of return over the one extra point you put into Doms to get old style scout. I don't see any reason not to take Doms over BSS so far.

I think the way to run BSS is 2 per repressor with 3 specials each (3 SB or 2 melta +combi-melta). Their main benefit is you need troops to unlock more CP and single doms don't make use of all the fire points.

What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.

Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.

Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.

 dracpanzer wrote:
I am still trying to figure out how to fit BSS squads into a list and get some kind of return over the one extra point you put into Doms to get old style scout. I don't see any reason not to take Doms over BSS so far.

BSS get to be larger and have more boltguns. So you can benefit more from using acts of faith on them. However, this only works if you use them as groundpounders rather htan mechanized MSU squads. Otherwise, the repressor idea is the way to go.

So...
3 Canoness
6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters)
3 Imagifier
3 5 melta Dominions
3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors
3 Immolators (for Dominions)
3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads)
All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
So...
3 Canoness
6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters)
3 Imagifier
3 5 melta Dominions
3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors
3 Immolators (for Dominions)
3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads)
All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.

I would put the Doms in the repressors rather than the Immos. The fire points are amazing for Doms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you might think about getting something for bubble wrap, whether it is a 15 sister squad or something else.

 pretre wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
So...
3 Canoness
6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters)
3 Imagifier
3 5 melta Dominions
3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors
3 Immolators (for Dominions)
3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads)
All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.

I would put the Doms in the repressors rather than the Immos. The fire points are amazing for Doms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you might think about getting something for bubble wrap, whether it is a 15 sister squad or something else.

All valid things, it is just a proof of concept. Unfortunately, Celestine and 2 Gemine aren't a simple swap for a canoness.

Yeah, I'd find a way to get her back in there. Right now, I don't feel like that has enough punch for 2000..

So for 2000 points, this is what I've been working with so far for Sisters. After a couple of games, I've really started to like the idea of leaning on Imagifiers to multiply my phases.

HQ
Celestine
-2 Geminae

Troops
15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior

15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior

15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior

Elities
Imagifier
Imagifier
Imagifier

Fast Attack
5 Dominions
-4 meltas, Condemnor boltgun
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile

5 Dominions
-4 meltas
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile

5 Dominions
-4 meltas
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile

Heavy Support
Exorcist
-HK missile

Exorcist
-HK missile

Retributors
-4 heavy bolters, 6 bolters

This is 2000 points on the nose, which is my local meta's sweet spot.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I'd find a way to get her back in there. Right now, I don't feel like that has enough punch for 2000..

I'm in agreement with this. Sadly, Celestine is mandatory for any Sisters list that wants to be even remotely competitive. You really don't get any choice in this.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.

That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.

If shot with BS3+ plasma guns on overcharge, it takes 14 shots to kill a predator while exorcists will need 21 shots. Difference between T7 and T8 is pretty noticeable.

Yes, plasmaguns aren't really very good anit-tank, but that's been well established for eight editions now. They're slightly better AT than they used to be, but if the enemy is using plasmaguns on your tanks instead of your transports or sisters, then that's their loss.

Actually, it takes 20 shots but still plasma guns are better for heavy infantry than tanks, even overcharged, unless you're in Rapid Fire range. And then you're increasing your odds of dying from 1/6 to about 5%.

Working on a spreadsheet for this now between work items. Going to do this on a per-weapon basis and then on the standard squad that can equip the weapons (plasma + combi-plasma in a Tactical squad, 4x weapon in a Devastator squad, 5 hellblasters in a Hellblaster squad, 1 Exorcist launcher, etc.) for a better comparison of a Predator vs an Exorcist.

Hint: Weapons that are good for anti-tank (melta, las, grav) are almost equally good against both while heavy armor weapons (plasma) aren't really that good against either.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RqKa7y19wERDEvXiboPQBCk9iHFPnrCkzdjwFkPZEeM/edit?usp=sharing

Yep. Like I said, if the enemy is using plasmaguns as anti-tank, either you're already winning because your opponent is making bad choices or is locked out of making good ones, or you've already lost and he has nothing left to shoot at other than our relatively mediocre tanks.

 Rubenite wrote:
What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.

Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.

Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.

This sounds like a very good plan!

But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)

I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.

My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1

What kind of point level?

So, despite my dislike of a few key elements in 8E, a friend wants me to bring a 1000 point force to demo the game for another friend. He has four possible lists he may bring (Marines, GK, Orks or Ad Mech). Rather than meta any of them, I'm trying to come up with a TAC list and am curious what people think and what changes I could make:


CPs: 4
Detachment 1: Outrider

HQ:
Celestine
-1 Geminae


Troops
5x BSS
-2x flamer, combi-flamer, chainsword

8x Battle Sisters
-2 storm bolters, Condemnor, chainsword

8x Battle Sisters
-2 storm bolters, Condemnor, chainsword


Fast Attack
5x Dominions
-5 storm bolters, chainsword

5x Dominions
-5 melta guns, chainsword

Repressor w/ extra heavy flamer
(transports both Dominion squads)

5 Seraphim
-Power sword


Heavy Support
5x Retributors
-3 heavy flamers, chain sword
-Repressor with extra heavy flamer (transports Rets and flamer BSS)



Basic idea:

Foot slogging BSSs to use T1 AoF on and to provide a bit of a wrap for the Repressors as well as a T1 screen for Celestine if I don't go first.

Seraphim pop in on the most vulnerable target and to aid/screen Celestine.

Dominion Repressor Vanguards based on who is going first, my turn 1 dumps the storm bolter squad then goes hunting the biggest things it can find. Melta-minions only leave if Repressor becomes crippled or is destroyed.

Retributor/BSS Repressor becomes an Easy-Bake Oven, torching everything in its path. Just like the melta-Minions, these units only leave if they must.

Condemnors over SBs on the foot sloggers on the off chance he brings GKs.


Still have 6 points to spend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.

Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.

Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.

This sounds like a very good plan!

But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)

Superior is throwing the grenade, though I agree -- if you're going storm bolters, it's better to give one to the superior and let a red shirt throw the grenade.

Drider wrote:
I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.

My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1

Trying to reach 2000 points with the above does not give significant options.

It looks like you'll be taking:
¤ Celestine + Geminae
¤ 3 Exorcists
¤ 2 Squads of Penitent Engines
¤ 1 Seraphim squad
¤ 2 Canoness

And then the rest of the sisters as BSS and Dominions mounted in Rhinos and Immolators.

Don't know if it'll reach 2000 in those numbers, but write something up and see where you get to



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Taikishi wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Rubenite wrote:
What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.

Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.

Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.

This sounds like a very good plan!

But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)

Superior is throwing the grenade, though I agree -- if you're going storm bolters, it's better to give one to the superior and let a red shirt throw the grenade.

That didn't solve the question lol

3 Special weapons out of 5 models is 2 "spare" models, not 1. This doesn't change if the superior throws a grenade or not..?

[EDIT] I think i'm miss-reading "always got a standard red-shirt" as "one out of a few", rather than "only 1".
Semantics, sorry

 BlackTalos wrote:

Drider wrote:
I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.

My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1

Trying to reach 2000 points with the above does not give significant options.

It looks like you'll be taking:
¤ Celestine + Geminae
¤ 3 Exorcists
¤ 2 Squads of Penitent Engines
¤ 1 Seraphim squad
¤ 2 Canoness

And then the rest of the sisters as BSS and Dominions mounted in Rhinos and Immolators.

Don't know if it'll reach 2000 in those numbers, but write something up and see where you get to

I would take Celestine and G, 3 Exos, 3 Doms, 2 Canoness with that list and work from there.

Taikishi wrote:

Fast Attack
5x Dominions
-5 storm bolters, chainsword

5x Dominions
-5 melta guns, chainsword

Repressor w/ extra heavy flamer
(transports both Dominion squads)

Dominion Repressor Vanguards based on who is going first, my turn 1 dumps the storm bolter squad then goes hunting the biggest things it can find. Melta-minions only leave if Repressor becomes crippled or is destroyed.

I freaking love this idea. Consider it stolen!

Adds another potential T2 AoF unit to the board in a key position for a mere 60pts. And disembarking T1 after the vanguard move is very reminiscent of Rhino Rush from the good old days. I absolutely love it!

Dominions are just so so so good! I'm highly tempted to skip the Battalion altogether. Now looking at 2x Outrider and 1 x Vanguard at 2k.

To clear up the red-shirt confusion from earlier, I was thinking about Dominions when I typed that. In a BSS its good that you have two standard sisters as red-shirt wounds. In a dominion squad it's nice to add an extra model if you can (6 fits in an immolator after all) just to take the first hit and save your expensive models.