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ERJAK wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So... new tactic.

30 points buys you a free Act of Faith on a 2+ now in the Elites slot using the Crusaders from the AM dex. There is also nothing in the Crusader's version of the rules saying that a unit may only benefit once.

Therefore, if you bring, say, 6 units of AM crusaders, you can use your Army AOF on a Dominion squad after it vanguarded to move it up, Celestine's AOF to move it again (or fire with them), and then the 6 Crusader's AOF to fire their guns six times or whatever.

And then the game starts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Least'ways until the FAQ, lol...

There's nothing in the rules to indicate that this is how this would work anywhere at all, please don't waste your or anyone else's time on crap like this.

That's a little needlessly hostile.

I'm not even sure what he's trying to say.

 pretre wrote:
I'm not even sure what he's trying to say.

I do believe he is suggesting that one could farm Acts of Faith by buying IG crusaders, then use them for another unit [IE: Dominions].


Either way, I don't think it works since they're using the IG version of the rule and we're using the SoB version of the rule.

Okay, look at the Crusader entry in Codex: Imperial Guard.

It has the same wording as the army-wide Act of Faith as the Index, except that it doesn't apply to the Army; instead, each unit has the ability.

This means that (as written), you roll a d6 for each unit of Crusaders, and "on a 2+, a unit from your army with this special ability may:" and then the normal stuff they may do.

Essentially, you get to copy the Act of Faith (army-wide) special rule for however many units of Crusaders you have, rather than just doing it once.

There is no "a unit may only benefit from this rule once" wording (or anything like it) in the Crusader's rules as well.

Basically they put Acts of Faith on the unit dataslate rather than as a army rule so mutiple units of Crusaders could be argued to provide multiple AOF.

Hopefully will be FAQed

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, look at the Crusader entry in Codex: Imperial Guard.

It has the same wording as the army-wide Act of Faith as the Index, except that it doesn't apply to the Army; instead, each unit has the ability.

This means that (as written), you roll a d6 for each unit of Crusaders, and "on a 2+, a unit from your army with this special ability may:" and then the normal stuff they may do.

Essentially, you get to copy the Act of Faith (army-wide) special rule for however many units of Crusaders you have, rather than just doing it once.

There is no "a unit may only benefit from this rule once" wording (or anything like it) in the Crusader's rules as well.

I don't own the Imperial Guard codex, and won't until November sometime.


However, even if you can farm and stack them with IG Crusaders, that only applies to IG Crusaders. The rule has the same name, but Dominions are benefiting from the army-wide Sisters version while the Crusaders are benefiting from a different Imperial Guard version,

Okay, so yes, this is legal right now. I get it.

That being said, since it says 'with this ability', it would only work on Crusaders, so it is less useful.

You could take 4 units of Crusaders and make one of them really good though.

The only way I could see it working is taking lots of crusader squads so you get one act per unit and then tactically applying them to the most useful unit. Entertainingly enough, you could get 100 crusaders and then 500 points of something else in 2k. Your biggest limitation is going to be detachments.

Amusingly, with 12 units (1800 points) of 10, you could get 10 acts. Means you can move 2 units 36" on turn 1 and still charge.

They have Divine Guidance and can't use it. lol

They get the AM keyword so you can take commissars to protect from leadership.

As an aside, this would be a great way to fix SOB and make them pretty competitive. Give each unit with AoF a chance to generate an AoF each turn.

Wait. I think it might work like that now.

Each unit in the SOB/AM list has the Acts of Faith Special Rule independently. I always assumed that it was an army special rule and not tied to the unit and that having the AoF special rule just meant you could use it. But... If each entry references it individually, you get to roll a D6 for each SOB unit with AoF.

"ACTS OF FAITH
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit
from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of
Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you
to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the
case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.
"
The index says:

"ABILITIES
The following abilities are common to several Adeptus
Ministorum units:
ACTS OF FAITH
oll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit
"
So the ability is unique to the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Started a YMDC for this: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/741844.page#9644486

So even though the ability is named the same as the SoB army wide rules, it's technically a unique ability, and since it grants the 2+ AoF to any unit in your army, aka any detachment, not just this unit, nor just the IG detachment, it could carry over to a SoB unit?

Sounds like FAQ/Errata bait.

 deviantduck wrote:
So even though the ability is named the same as the SoB army wide rules, it's technically a unique ability, and since it grants the 2+ AoF to any unit in your army, aka any detachment, not just this unit, nor just the IG detachment, it could carry over to a SoB unit?

Sounds like FAQ/Errata bait.

The Crusader one only works on Crusaders.

The SOB one though...

It isn't named the same as the Army Wide rules, it's listed under 'Abilities' in the SOB rules, which means each unit gets it.

I'm so glad 8th edition is so streamlined and tactical.

Hi guys! New Sisters player here after recently getting back into the hobby.

Been reading through this thread past few weeks, but thought I'd jump in and get your opinions on how best to kit out my standard BSS?

Slowly building my force. I've already got a unit of Rets (4 HB/1 SB) and two units of Doms (4 Melta/1 SB), but wasn't sure what the ideal loadout for my normal ladies should be. Only got 1 unit of 10 so far.

I saw you guys mention combi weapons a while back on this thread, and i'd sure have enjoy giving them combi-flamers. But couldn't remember what the takeaway was on best way to go. So: standard bolters, combiweapons, or saturate them with storm bolters?

I've got the parts for any of these options, so lmk your thoughts!



Sidenote - if i get around to a third Dom squad, do i need more melta or would i be better served by mixing it up and running a squad of flamer doms or stormbolter doms?

Right now, SB saturation is the way to go.

Doms are best with Melta (maybe Combi-Plasma) and/or all storm bolters.
Rets are HBx4, maybe SB.
Sisters are SBx3.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, To be clear, on the Act of Faith thing, I wouldn't build an army around it until it is FAQ'd one way or the other, which it probably will never be.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, look at the Crusader entry in Codex: Imperial Guard.

It has the same wording as the army-wide Act of Faith as the Index, except that it doesn't apply to the Army; instead, each unit has the ability.

This means that (as written), you roll a d6 for each unit of Crusaders, and "on a 2+, a unit from your army with this special ability may:" and then the normal stuff they may do.

Essentially, you get to copy the Act of Faith (army-wide) special rule for however many units of Crusaders you have, rather than just doing it once.

There is no "a unit may only benefit from this rule once" wording (or anything like it) in the Crusader's rules as well.

I think I'll interject here. The rule in the IG Codex says "roll a D6 at the start of your turns. [then] on a roll of 2+ ONE UNIT from your army with this ability blah blah blah "; what I don't read is "Roll a D6 for each unit with this ability". In other words, roll 'a' (one, singular, individual, by itself) dice and apply the benefit if the dice roll is 2+. How can this be read any other way?
It's a shame when players look for ways around the reading of a rule to get some benefit. It's already bad enough Sisters have to put up with grief over our legitimate rules, let's not give other factions more fodder to hit us with.

 davidgr33n wrote:
It's a shame when players look for ways around the reading of a rule to get some benefit. It's already bad enough Sisters have to put up with grief over our legitimate rules, let's not give other factions more fodder to hit us with.

Always this argument. We're not trying to look for ways around the rules, we're discussing the literal interpretation of the rules. Without the studio stepping in with a faq, we literally have no way to know what they meant when they wrote it. We only have what they wrote.

Exactly. Roll A D6

Not.

Roll many D6s


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 pretre wrote:
Right now, SB saturation is the way to go.

Doms are best with Melta (maybe Combi-Plasma) and/or all storm bolters.
Rets are HBx4, maybe SB.
Sisters are SBx3

Agreed, SBs are your most cost efficient weapon, especially for BSS.
Doms need melta but second choice goes to SBs.
With Retributors only the superior can have a a SB

 davidgr33n wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Right now, SB saturation is the way to go.

Doms are best with Melta (maybe Combi-Plasma) and/or all storm bolters.
Rets are HBx4, maybe SB.
Sisters are SBx3

Agreed, SBs are your most cost efficient weapon, especially for BSS.
Doms need melta but second choice goes to SBs.
With Retributors only the superior can have a a SB

I agree with this, and Rets should have HB's, the -1ap and S5 helps more than you would think.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Exactly. Roll A D6

Not.

Roll many D6s

Except each unit has that rule. It's the same wording for a rhino. 'Roll a D6' no one is saying you can only repair one rhino.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Exactly. Roll A D6

Not.

Roll many D6s

When a rule is a property of a unit, each copy of that unit instantiates a copy of that rule into play.

Then there's the FAQ that says that a unit can only gain the benefit of a given special rule once, and additional instances have no effect.


Each time I buy a IG Crusaders unit, it puts a copy of Acts of Faith into play attached to itself. At the beginning of each turn, the ability triggers, and you roll a D6. If I have 5 Crusaders units, then each unit's copy checks for the beginning of the turn, and rolls a D6.

Then the rule targets a unit with the Acts of Faith ability for the next part. If a unit is targeted by more than one instance of the ability, only then does the FAQ kicks in and it only gains the benefits once.


I'm 90% certain this isn't intended, based on the idea that it's supposed to be identical to the Sisters of Battle special rule which instantiates one of itself per army [or at least we've been playing it that way], but as written I don't really see the logic in interpreting it alternately. However, there's precedence for using the Rule as Intended over the Rule as Written, so I don't really intend to let IG Crusaders gen multiple Acts of Faith. And for sure, because Sisters' Acts of Faith is a global ability, and IG Crusaders' Acts of Faith is a unit ability, IG Crusaders cannot proc Sisters Acts of Faith, since that would break encapsulation, probably.

Actually, we don't know that Sisters have a global. Because it is listed under the abilities section.

I'll concede the point. GW should really get with the program and check what they're copy/pasting every time they do it.
They're looking more like the old GW every day.

Huh, this is a good point. Sisters have the rule written the same way. Each unit has the ability that says "Roll a D6, on a 2+ one unit with this ability can use an act of faith". So you should be able to roll a D6 for each unit with this ability.

Probably not how the rule was intended to work, but it's how it's written. Makes imagifiers totally useless though.

I'm away from home right now, does the index specify that units with the AoF rule gain the full text?

Shield of Faith says that "models with the Shield of Faith ability", same for Zealot, while Acts of Faith does not.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm away from home right now, does the index specify that units with the AoF rule gain the full text?

Shield of Faith says that "models with the Shield of Faith ability", same for Zealot, while Acts of Faith does not.

"The following abilities are common to several Adeptus Ministorum units"

Doesn't say "models with this ability", but then it doesn't need to, as the codex entry says that they have the ability, and the description tells you what that ability is.

Like I said, it's not RAI, and you'd be pretty cheesy to play it like that, but thats just the way 40k works sometimes lol

For the record: the entry in the guard codex says you roll the dice and on a 2+ one unit in your army with the Act of Faith ability may perform an act of faith. It's pretty clear that you won't get more acts of faith if you also run a sisters detachment, or multiple small squads of crusaders. It's pretty cut and dry.

I wonder if this would work:

You can take a ministorum priest in your guard detachment as an elite. If you're warlord is guard you can give that priest a Dagger of Tu'Sakh, and keep that priest in reserve with one other infantry unit. And can place them within 6 inches of any board edge and 9 inches away from enemy models.

That infantry unit has to be the same regiment as the character holding the knife, but since the priest has no regiment rule, it can be any infantry unit. Including Arco-Flagellants.

A not-regiment doesn't become an any regiment.

 Jancoran wrote:
A not-regiment doesn't become an any regiment.

The wording of the dagger is that the infantry that joins the bearer must have the same <regiment> of the bearer, if the bearer has one.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
For the record: the entry in the guard codex says you roll the dice and on a 2+ one unit in your army with the Act of Faith ability may perform an act of faith. It's pretty clear that you won't get more acts of faith if you also run a sisters detachment, or multiple small squads of crusaders. It's pretty cut and dry.

Each "Acts of Faith" ability entry, gives you the ability "Acts of Faith". So if you have 3 units of crusaders, then you have 3 units with the "Acts of Faith" (AoF) ability.

Each instance of the AoF ability gives you the rule - "Roll a dice and on a 2+ one unit can perform an AoF"

So RAW, for each unit in your army with AoF, you roll a dice, and on a 2+ you can perform an AoF.

I wouldn't play it like this, and its clearly not how it's intended, but it's how the rules work. They should have named the rule for the ability something different, like "The Faithful", so it would end up something like:

THE FAITHFUL - Roll a D6, on a 2+ one unit with the Acts of Faith ability may perform an act of faith.

Means that the rule/ability doesn't end up self referencing, and recursive.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
A not-regiment doesn't become an any regiment.

The wording of the dagger is that the infantry that joins the bearer must have the same <regiment> of the bearer, if the bearer has one.

Interesting.

Wow. What a mess. Has anyone tried e-mailing GW about this conundrum to get clarification? FAQ means 'Frequently Asked Questions'. It won't get FAQ'd if nobody's asking.

drbored wrote:
Wow. What a mess. Has anyone tried e-mailing GW about this conundrum to get clarification? FAQ means 'Frequently Asked Questions'. It won't get FAQ'd if nobody's asking.

I put it on their FB page and got the "we read it the way you do but we'll forward it to the designers for a future FAQ" standard canned answer lol.