TYRANIDS - Massive Scything Talons

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**col_impact**

Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

**Col_Caffran**

I know what I think the rule is trying to say, however it's very unclear and further compounds the unclarity by saying

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons...

scything talons is a piece of wargear and Trygons don't get access to it so RAW Trygons don't get any extra attacks at all. It needs an FAQ the rule is unclear

**SideshowLucifer**

So how many extra attacks would a model armed with 2 chainswords get? One?

**Fragile**

Col_Caffran wrote:
I know what I think the rule is trying to say, however it's very unclear and further compounds the unclarity by saying

If the bearer has more than one pair of scything talons...

scything talons is a piece of wargear and Trygons don't get access to it so RAW Trygons don't get any extra attacks at all. It needs an FAQ the rule is unclear

Since your being pedantic about it. Firstly, that was already brought up and dismissed a page back. Secondly you need to reread the rule on the Trygon's page. It clearly says does not say what you just wrote. The Trygon Prime is the one with the wording issue. And the wargear in the back is fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

The profile has nothing to do with the number of weapons it has.

**Jacksmiles**

Fragile wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Fragile wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

'Massive scything talons' is the single melee weapon profile. The Trygon has a single melee weapon profile.

The profile has nothing to do with the number of weapons it has.

It's so weird that last edition he was trying to say Guilliman's sword and fist combo were two separate weapons with the same profile, and now even though he sees the fact that a datasheet gives a model 3 weapons, he wants to treat them as 1. 0 credibility for me.

The datasheet gives the model 3 weapons. Each weapon has the same profile. It is printed once for reference. Each weapon gets an attack every time the model fights. +3 attacks.

**Servbot43**

Id say its +1 attack simply because you buy the scything talons for one point value and is listed as "2 or more sets" So RAW it IS 1 weapon.

**Jacksmiles**

Servbot43 wrote:
Id say its +1 attack simply because you buy the scything talons for one point value and is listed as "2 or more sets" So RAW it IS 1 weapon.

So when you buy a pair of lightning claws you are buying one weapon.

Here's the thing. The profile is not for "2 or more pairs," it's for "1 pair," so no matter how many points you pay, no matter how you buy all 3 pairs, you have 3 sets of the profile.

**Servbot43**

So are you trying to say that because "Monstrous Boneswords" are plural you have 2 profiles? Its the same thing they are condensing all pairs into a single profile because the benefit doesnt stack.

**Jacksmiles**

Servbot43 wrote:
Basically yes

So having a pair of lightning claws doesn't allow an extra attack with them. Because you only have 1 weapon. Even though you bought a pair.

**Servbot43**

The text for lightning claws specifies that if you bought an extra one you get +1a in the same manner that talons state that if you have 2+ pairs you get +1a

**Xenomancers**

puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.

This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

This is pretty obvious...I agree with your assessment.

**Jacksmiles**

Servbot43 wrote:
The text for lightning claws specifies that if you bought an extra one you get +1a in the same manner that talons state that if you have 2+ pairs you get +1a

So you DO buy two weapons when you buy two lightning claws. I bought 3 pairs of scything talons when I paid points for the Trygon's weapons.

Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

Lightning claws say "with them" - in reference to getting 1 extra attack with your lightning claws total.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.

This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

This is pretty obvious...I agree with your assessment.

Why would it need to state "when it attacks"? You select a unit to *fight*. I select the Trygon to fight, i see that it has 3 weapons telling me to do something when it fights. You are specifically allowed to split attacks between weapons (I.E. a marine could make 2 attacks with a fist and 1 with a lightning claw if it has both and has 3 attacks).

Here's the thing: It's not "you get an extra attack," it's "you get an extra attack *with this weapon,*" of which weapons you possess 3, each one telling you to take another attack with it.

**Servbot43**

Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

The profile for talons is (any number of pairs) so its one weapon representing all of its legs with a single point cost.

Your example is completely different because you are buying separate and distinct weapons with the same profile.

**Fragile**

Servbot43 wrote:
Reread the talons. You get +1 attack "with this weapon." You have 3 weapons, each saying that. Each weapon is "1 pair." you have "1 pair" x 3. +3 attacks. There's one profile for each pair, there are three profiles, you get the benefits of each. How many attacks does a model with 1 attack base equipped with 2 chainswords get? The answer is 3, even though each chainsword has the same profile.

The profile for talons is (any number of pairs) so its one weapon representing all of its legs with a single point cost.

Your example is completely different because you are buying separate and distinct weapons with the same profile.

Your not using a profile. You using a weapon cost example.

**Servbot43**

So you think the base weapons for the trygon cost 180 pts?

**Fragile**

I think your conflating the rules for list building with the rules for playing the game.

**Servbot43**

I'm saying you buy it once, its listed in the wargear as "2+ pairs", so to me it would appear to be one weapon that represents 6 arms.

**Lance845**

Servbot43 wrote:
I'm saying you buy it once, its listed in the wargear as "2+ pairs", so to me it would appear to be one weapon that represents 6 arms.

It is not listed in the wargear as 2+ pairs. On the 2 pages that list all of the tyranid wargear options at no point is there a profile for anything but a single Scything Talons.

Further, on the page for points costs it says (two pairs) (Hive Tyrant) (two or more pairs) (trygon and trygon prime).

Since there is no such thing as a weapon profile called "Monstrous Scything Talons (Hive Tyrant)" I assume anything inside ( ) specifies what that cost is for. Therefore, you pay the one price for the however many weapon profiles is says inside ( ) for who ever it says you can get them for.

And Mawlocs get 3 pairs of Scything Talons. There is no special listing for Mawlocs cause Scytal cost 0 points so the cost for the Mawloc is exactly the same no matter how many it has. Mawloc has 3 pairs. What about him?

**Servbot43**

I would assume that any listing of "X has Y pairs of monstrous/massive/scything talons" would be handled the same way as all of the talon weapons have the same special rule

**Lance845**

Servbot43 wrote:
I would assume that any listing of "X has Y pairs of monstrous/massive/scything talons" would be handled the same way as all of the talon weapons have the same special rule

So you assume that any listing of "x number of y wargear" on a dataslate means that the unit has a single profile for a single piece of wargear that is consider to count as whatever x is?

So "3 pairs of scything talons" is a single profile with one listing of it's rules for range strength ap dmg and special rules.

And "5 deathspitters" on the sporecyst is a single profile with one listing for a "18" assault 3 gun" etc etc...

Am I getting you correctly?

**Servbot43**

I guess the way they list ranged weapons does confuse this

**Lance845**

Servbot43 wrote:
I guess the way they list ranged weapons does confuse this

No, it doesn't. Because it's not confusing. You have no permission to combine weapon profiles. If a model has 3 of weapon it has 3 weapon profiles that all read exactly the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, go read the Scytal weapon profile. Do the math on it and work out what its special rules benefit is.

Then do it again for the second profile.

Then do it again for the 3rd.

**Servbot43**

The condescension would be a little more appropriate if this wasn't a four page thread about the way to interpret it.

As far as if the special rules are cumulative I have no idea due to the difference in wording between talons and every other weapon.

**Xenomancers**

Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

**Lance845**

Sorry if you are reading condescension into my written words that are incapable of carrying any inflection.

I was literally requesting that you do those things.

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

I propose you pay the points they tell you to pay for the amount of wargear they tell you you get on the model they tell you you get it on. Points costs are not profiles. Profiles are on the next page.

**puma713**

Lance845 wrote:

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

This is not true. You saying it matter-of-factly does not make it true. If it was as clear-cut as you say, yakface wouldn't have bothered to add it to the FAQ submission to GW, and there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate on it. You saying, "it may not be RAI that each pair generates its own +1 attack" indicates that you understand there is room for other interpretations. When there are ambiguous rules, or ambiguous wording, you should be prepared to take the least advantageous reading, at least on the tabletop.

And as for people "not believing the benefit is that good" is pretty silly. We're talking about a difference of 2 attacks. They either have 7 attacks or they have 9. It's not that people can't wrap their head around the amazing bonus of +2 attacks, it's that there are people that just don't agree with you.

**Xenomancers**

Lance845 wrote:
Sorry if you are reading condescension into my written words that are incapable of carrying any inflection.

I was literally requesting that you do those things.

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Lance do you propose spending 90 points to get 3 pairs (single weapon cost)of MST? or do you propose spending 60 points - the same as 2 would cost?

I propose you pay the points they tell you to pay for the amount of wargear they tell you you get on the model they tell you you get it on. Points costs are not profiles. Profiles are on the next page.

It's ether 3 separate weapons like you say it is and you spend 90 points. Or its 2 or more pairs for 60 points which has a single profile. You make the call. That is how all the other weapons in this game work.

**Lance845**

puma713 wrote:
Lance845 wrote:

This has been going on for 4 pages not because the rules are written unclearly (they are not, it's a single very clear sentence with a very obvious outcome). The 4 pages is because people cannot believe the benefit is actually that good.

Fair. Again, it may not be RAI that each pair generates it's own +1 attack. But it is RAW and no trying to justify it any other way changes it.

This is not true. You saying it matter-of-factly does not make it true. If it was as clear-cut as you say, yakface wouldn't have bothered to add it to the FAQ submission to GW, and there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate on it. You saying, "it may not be RAI that each pair generates its own +1 attack" indicates that you understand there is room for other interpretations. When there are ambiguous rules, or ambiguous wording, you should be prepared to take the least advantageous reading, at least on the tabletop.

And as for people "not believing the benefit is that good" is pretty silly. We're talking about a difference of 2 attacks. They either have 7 attacks or they have 9. It's not that people can't wrap their head around the amazing bonus of +2 attacks, it's that there are people that just don't agree with you.

Lets break down the sentence structure of the rule then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

So, subject: "The bearer"
Qualifier "if/has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons"
Effect: "it (the subject = the bearer) can make 1 additional attack with this weapon" read, 1 additional attack that has to be made with the profile you are reading.
Timing trigger: "each time it (the subject = the bearer) fights"

That is very very clear. It's very simple english. Each time the bearer fights, if it has more than 1 pair of scytal, it gets to make a bonus attack that has to use the profile with this rule.

Now... if you have more than one pair... you have more than one profile.
So read the second profile.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Oh look! It says the same thing.

At no point in any of that does it tell you you need to attack WITH the scytal to get the extra attack. It only says that the effect triggers when the bearer fights.

Does the bearer have 3 pairs? Well, better read the weapon profile of the 3rd weapon then.

If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

Well look at that! It's the same!

I guess thats +3 attacks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:

It's ether 3 separate weapons like you say it is and you spend 90 points. Or its 2 or more pairs for 60 points which has a single profile. You make the call. That is how all the other weapons in this game work.

Again, show me a weapon profile for "Mounstrous Scything Talons (Hve Tyrant)". It doesn't exist. Because anything in () stipulates what/how much you are buying and who you are buying it for. Not the profile it references. Point costs are not profiles. This argument is dumb.

**puma713**

Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I'm not saying I don't see valid points in your argument. I do. I just don't agree with you. There are two reasons (besides the reasons I have already laid out) that I don't agree with you. One, is you are paying for "sets" of Scything Talons, whether it is two or more. If the points value said Trygon and Trygon Prime (three sets) 60 points, I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't. It says (two or more sets), indicating there is no difference, points-wise between two sets and three sets, or two sets and ten sets. If there is no difference points-wise, then it is hard to imagine there is a difference rules-wise, since that is not how 40K works, in general.

Secondly, your interpretation, applied to other units that are worded similarly, gives them much greater advantages than it appears they should have. A trygon getting +2 attacks is not nearly as devastating as a Chaos Daemon Prince getting +6 attacks, which is what it would get under your interpretation. I am not going to go through each unit entry in the game, but the Daemon Prince is worded similarly to the Trygon and it is clear that you are only supposed to receive +3 attacks rather than +6.

**Lance845**

puma713 wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I'm not saying I don't see valid points in your argument. I do. I just don't agree with you. There are two reasons (besides the reasons I have already laid out) that I don't agree with you. One, is you are paying for "sets" of Scything Talons, whether it is two or more. If the points value said Trygon and Trygon Prime (three sets) 60 points, I would tend to agree with you. But it doesn't. It says (two or more sets), indicating there is no difference, points-wise between two sets and three sets, or two sets and ten sets. If there is no difference points-wise, then it is hard to imagine there is a difference rules-wise, since that is not how 40K works, in general.

And I see this. But, you are looking at that points value in a vacume. What that says (for no real good reason) is that it doesn't matter how many pairs of scytal a trygon or trygon prime gets it always costs the same for those specific models. Sounds bonkers. I agree. It could be 100 pairs. Except that those models donot have permission to buy scytal. They come equiped with a very specific number and they have no permission to change them out for anything else. So whether trygons pay the same price for 3 pairs as they do for 100 is not a balance issues because they can never have anythng other than 3.

Secondly, your interpretation, applied to other units that are worded similarly, gives them much greater advantages than it appears they should have. A trygon getting +2 attacks is not nearly as devastating as a Chaos Daemon Prince getting +6 attacks, which is what it would get under your interpretation. I am not going to go through each unit entry in the game, but the Daemon Prince is worded similarly to the Trygon and it is clear that you are only supposed to receive +3 attacks rather than +6.

I would need a quote of the demon princes weapon profile to comment on it. I don't own the chaos book. show me the rule for the weapon in question and I would be happy to go over this point with you.