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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...Arya's first new friends on her return to Westeros...is a bunch of Lannister soldiers?

it's just so they can establish their humanity and decentness before

Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.

Even had the same hairdo



And yes, I agree with Sansa, but man her presentation sucked: the Starks need to be on the same page in public.

didn't they talk about this at all before having the meeting/town hall/whatever?

She was right - that meeting could have gone very wrong and nearly did. It was very Robb like.

She obviously cares for Jon, but also does not want to be in a position of weakness again and this is likely the culmination of her being ignored in private council for too long - powerful families do stuff like this and much worse in history. Jon still obviously sees her as the "pretty princess" she was and apart from her hold over Little Finger (and his soliders who as Sansa said actually won the battle Jon had lost) he only needs her as a symbol of the Starks. She wants to be more - it remains to be seen what she will do to be more.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So do we think

Spoiler:

now that we have established the Lanister soldiers as basically nice guys, Arya is going to slaughter them for thier faces - she can only impersonate the dead right?

According to the books yes. Faces are harvested and turned into masks, which are enchanted using blood magic in order to animate and fuse them to a Faceless Man's own face. To impersonate a person, you need their face mask, which almost certainly means that they're dead (besides the Faceless Men themselves, maybe they harvest their own faces too which makes them literally Faceless Men).

But the Faceless Men on the TV show already broke that rule when one of them poisoned himself, and Arya pulled several masks off of him to reveal her own face, despite not being dead herself (so how could her face have been harvested?).

So we really don't know. I think the showrunners are just going for the cool factor and aren't really following any consistent rules or respecting the Lore.

I'm good with that. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, not a transliteration*.

The truth is that I think the show will probably do a better job telling the story than the source books. I love them, but there are a lot of tangents in the books that are maybe unnecessary.

*that's not quite the word I want but the correct one eludes me.

Oh I doubt that. Whilst the show is undeniably doing a good job of maintain a steady pace VS the books' meandering, some of the book's tangents were actually good, and were poorly adapted by the show. The whole Dornish plot is far better in the books than the show, they really screwed the pooch there. And Euron is a lot more interesting in the books. Its a shame that they cut Lady Stoneheart from the story.

The show has far better pacing for sure, but that doesn't mean that all their adaptations and changes have been good.

The show definitely mishandled Dorne, I'll agree with that.

We need to get a spoiler tag on the thread title.

I know that tone is very hard to relay in writing, so please take me at my word that this is a serious question, and not just being pissy:

what do people expect when they start digging into a thread like this, if not spoilers?

I've used spoiler tags throughout just to be on the safe side, but if you've gotten this far into a thread and encounter spoilers it seems like you are very much an architect of your own misfortune. What is the conversation you are hoping to see here?

Again, I am seriously trying to understand the other end of this and not just being difficult. I want to understand what people expect.

This thread requires so many spoiler tags just to exist, it kind of makes sense that the title would just be a spoiler tag.

I think the final concensus from last year was:

No spoilers for TV show stuff.
Spoilers for book stuff not in the show.
Spoilers for theories based on book stuff.

 d-usa wrote:
I think the final concensus from last year was:

No spoilers for TV show stuff.
Spoilers for book stuff not in the show.
Spoilers for theories based on book stuff.

Soooo, basically everything?

As someone who likes to wait until the end of seasons before watching them, I appreciate the plight of those trying to avoid spoilers.... but the last thing you do when trying to avoid spoilers is go in to a thread about the topic you are trying to avoid spoilers about The annoying spoilers are when you're doing something completely unrelated (watching a youtube video about something else, walking down the street, in an unrelated thread, etc) and people blurt out spoilers about the movie/show/book you're waiting to see/read. Or when you ring up a mate and say "I'm about to watch XXXX" and he responds "oh I liked the bit where XXXX"

I think not opening the thread until you have watched that week's show is pretty much a common sense (or self control) thing?

I certainly don't want to look in and see "OMG Sansa is dead I didn't see that coming!" and totally ruin the show for myself

Absolutely cracking opener to the show, the first two scenes were brilliant.

Thought the show did a brilliant job of doing a "previously on GoT" without actually having a voiceover, just reminded you of the significance of what happened in that episode.

And the final sequence of Daenerys arriving in Westeros was just absolutely majestic. Several minutes of just a sweeping orchestral score and some absolutely wonderful camera shots, I don't think I have ever seen such impressive sets on a show (apart from perhaps the original series of Star Trek.. )

 Ouze wrote:
The show definitely mishandled Dorne, I'll agree with that.

Agreed - Dorne was very poor in all respects - but think like Mereem etc they may not bother with them any more.

But the last few Books were a disaster and complete mess so I think the show is winning on the whole

So who did they miss in the first epsiode and likely to see in the next?

 Pacific wrote:
I think not opening the thread until you have watched that week's show is pretty much a common sense (or self control) thing?

I certainly don't want to look in and see "OMG Sansa is dead I didn't see that coming!" and totally ruin the show for myself

Absolutely cracking opener to the show, the first two scenes were brilliant.

Thought the show did a brilliant job of doing a "previously on GoT" without actually having a voiceover, just reminded you of the significance of what happened in that episode.

And the final sequence of Daenerys arriving in Westeros was just absolutely majestic. Several minutes of just a sweeping orchestral score and some absolutely wonderful camera shots, I don't think I have ever seen such impressive sets on a show (apart from perhaps the original series of Star Trek.. )

Yup. And that last line? 'Shall we begin' was absolutely perfect to round out that particular episode. It reflected the 'round-up' feel, and suggests we're in for something of a wild ride over the next few weeks

I liked the episode, looking forward to the rest.

I agree Sansa shouldn't have tried to mark her territory like that and stuff. I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."

I love every scene that contains briene and the wildling guy.

Slow burner overall for me. Definitely setting things up for the season but had some fairly tedious scenes in places.
And that ed sheeran cameo, ye gods.
"Havent heard that song before".
"It's a new one" *cheesy smile*

 Necros wrote:
I liked the episode, looking forward to the rest.

I agree Sansa shouldn't have tried to mark her territory like that and stuff. I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."

I love every scene that contains briene and the wildling guy.

yeah those two need to be on screen more - genius.

Campfire doesn't bother me - I didn't now who he was anyway.

Sansa was right and Jon apparently can't handle that, that she called him out in public - not a great idea but I think they were showing she was frustrated by being ignored by him in council.

but otherwise she is seen as agreeing and if she has to step in and take the reigns at some point that might not be great.

She is also likely not happy that people keep forgetting that Jon lost the Battle of the bastard ........and she won ii through her infleunce on Littlefinger, she had told Jon waht would happen before the battle and he ignored her then as well, she rmeinded him that her fatehr and brother madde stupid descisons that cost her family and thousands of others - Jon is her last chance - if he screws up again, it might be no-one in the North will survive.

 Necros wrote:
I really didn't like the campfire song scene. It just felt like it was added in for some dumb hollywood reason like, "Hey writers, this dumb noob singer's agent won't leave us alone. Just throw him in somehow, it doesn't matter where."

They did that for Maisie Williams (Arya). She's a huge Ed Sheeran fan.

I thought the scene itself was fine, though they should have put more effort into his makeup and outfit, he was too easily recognizable which broke the immersion of the scene. It didn't feel like a Lannister soldier singing with his mates, it felt like Ed Sheeran wandered onto set and sat down for an impromptu Ed Sheeran sing-along.. At least give him a beard and long wig, maybe a crooked nose and some scars so the audience has to figure it out, jeez.

Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?

 reds8n wrote:
Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?

Well given he has virtually nothing left to live for, is likely to turn to drink like his sister and is still apparently in shock about te death of his last child - yeah him killling her is likely. In fact he must really really love her for her to still be alive now.

The question is will she stay dead

 reds8n wrote:
Indeed.


.... so, reading around a bit :

when Jamie and Cersei had their chat stood on the map of the continent she was stood on the part known as " the neck" whilst Jamie was stood on the eastern part known as "the fingers"

... and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.


Book readers : is that right ?

Careful now, thats technically a book spoiler. The Valonqar prophecy wasn't actually used on the show IIRC, they only used the prophecy about her children dying.

But yes, the popular theory is that Valonqar (believed to be Valyrian for little brother) means that one of Cersei's younger brothers will be the one to kill her. Tyrion is the obvious choice given how they hate each other, but the Valonqar being Jamie instead is a very popular theory. It'd certainly have a poetic justice to it.

HOWEVER

I will point out that Valonqar could potentially be anyone, its does not necessarily mean Cersei's own brothers. It doesn't even necessarily mean a male. We know from Maester Aemon that a lot of Valryian words are gender neutral. Regarding the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy, Aemon tells Sam that he believes the prophecy was misinterpreted and that "Prince" could refer to a woman i.e. Daenerys Targaryen.

So, if we assume that Valonqar is also gender neutral, then it could be also be a woman who kills Cersei. And guess who is heading to Kings Landing with the express intention of killing Cersei?

Arya Stark, thats who. Maybe she'll even wear Jamie Lannister's face whilst killing Cersei. (Yes I'm hedging my bets here).


Though, it could just as easily be Sandor "the Hound" Clegane (younger sibling) who kills Cersei.

I kinda like the idea of Cerci dying but not staying dead.. Then maybe her and her mountainous friend can join up with the white walkers and she could be one of those zombie boss guys.

I like the reluctant anti-hero hero that clegane is turning into. I didn't really care much about him till he came back. Was he dead and resurrected, or did he just manage to survive when he was left for dead that time?

Arya left him for dead. Septon Ray (Ian McShane) found him and nursed him back to health.

No magic involved this time.

I reckon Jamie is going to take Cersei's life.

He did it with the Mad King, and now he's seeing his Sister go off the deep end as well.

There are those that think that Jaime will end Cersei...

 gorgon wrote:
There are those that think that Jaime will end Cersei...

Spoiler:

...fulfilling the prophecy and becoming Azor Ahai in the process. I don't believe that theory is how things will play out, but it's plausible and decently supported as these things go.

Has ever been mentioned in the show - is there any reason it believes it exists in the show universe? I can;t recall it but may be wrong?

I think Jamie will just end her at some point - too late though.

She could then be brought back by the undead army who apparently are still lost in their snow storm or the mad Dr Frankenstein guy. Sort of Bride of Frankenstein to the Mountains Frankenstiens monster

Seriously? Of course Azor Ahai has been mentioned on the show, its all Melisandre ever talks about.

 reds8n wrote:
and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.

Book readers : is that right ?

I don't believe the song has anything to do with Jaime. It's strictly a throwback to Tyrion\Shae and the song that Bronn tried pretty hard to put a lid on - the hand of gold is totally coincidental IMO, in the book the "hands of gold" refer to the necklace.