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Apparently blowing up your own capital city and your son committing suicide turns one into a tactical genius.
Like damn, how did Cersei get so good? She took out 3 of Danny's allies in a single episode.

Then again, the Dragon faction's strategic expertise was pretty terrible. Should have sent scouts out first to determine if the Rock is actually worth something, and that the lannisters really need food. Then they would have known that that Casterly Rock has no real strategic value and it would have been better to secure Highgarden's food stores and wealth.

Maybe the North will send in soldiers to protect the dragonglass mine. It would be terrible if dragonstone were to fall and Snow would have to negotiate with Cersei, who probably would demand something ridiculous.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).

I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago

Like damn, how did Cersei get so good? She took out 3 of Danny's allies in a single episode.

Well she didn't, she just had good generals in the form of Jamie and Euron who she gave the freedom to act.

As I said above, making Tyrion hand and losing Ser Jorah and Daario has made the 'Dove' faction in her council very powerful. This has understandably reduced her success in military affairs.
We will have to see if the return of Ser Jorah restores the balance a bit.

Mr Morden wrote:[Euron is steeling the show at the moment (he was awesome in the courtroom)

Ugh. TBH, I sort of hate Euron for the last few episodes. For one, he didn't really earn his place to be the big bad. Joffrey had a long time to earn his place of villainy, as did Cersei, and Ramsey, and so on. Euron just like, showed up. And somehow he has a thousand ships which got built in a few months on an island with virtually no trees? It just feels like a very sloppy, lazy deus ex Greyjoy. And lets not talk about how he looks like he has an entire closet full of Ed Hardy clothing.

Tamereth wrote:Is Dorn now out of the picture? Given that their army etc hasn't been involved I feel like they may still have a role to play at the end, keeping Ellaria alive in the dungeon may come back to haunt Cersi.

I have no idea who is left in Dorne at this point, leadership-wise. I personally don't see Ellaria walking away from this one.

IMO they're done, but I am not as familiar with Dorne as I could be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.

Yeah it was looking pretty unlikely when she was chained up in the Sept of Baelor so recently.

Still laughing at:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.

Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.

Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?

All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*

*of course, until Bran tells Jon R+L+J.

Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements) - she still has Dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied - the Lannisters have cleverly taken out the entire Westros element which does help with their "them against us".

The reaction of the people of Kings Landing shows exactly how easy it would have been for Dany to come in, burn out Cersi and take control - they don't care who is on the throne as long as they get to live their lives. Cersei is in the main not targeting the "small folk" so they don't care if she kills other nobles -why would they. As Euron says they don't really care who's skulls are on stakes.

Jon has stumbled from defeat to near defeat to victory snatched from defeat and people do acknowledge his heritage quite a bit - he might be bastard but his a famous one of a famous man.

It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.

I assumed the Dorne army went down with the Iron born fleet.

Yeah I am really enjoying Euron but he has been given vast numbers of ships from nowhere and a treeless islands, the ability to move quicker than anything else, and the ability to predict the enemy movements without error.

He is fun but yeah massive plot device to change the war.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements)

I think more of the latter than the former: after all, Dany did crucify a few hundred people like 3 seasons ago.

 Mr Morden wrote:
As Euron says they don't really care who's skulls are on stakes.

As much as I just bitched about Euron, this was one of the better insights this episode - he sure wasn't wrong about that.

Yeah which worked well, then she tired to be all nice and the city felt apart, once her Dothraki slaughtered the harpies and her Dragons burned the ships - all was peace and harmony

I think she has figured this out (again) but too late - Kings Landing will have its AA batteries and bye bye Dragon.

I felt Bran was a bit of a dick in this episode.

I appreciate he's been through a lot and blah blah but I'm pretty certain he could've made more of an effort to explain things to Sansa than he did.

..although TBF it can be pretty dull having someone try and explain the plot of their RPG campaign to you perhaps we had a lucky escape.

Question :

@reds8n: That's been the theory.

There's another related theory that could play into Bran being a bit cold toward his sister.

... upon reflection I might be half recalling stuff read on here/previous threads


..other theory then.... ?

 Ouze wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its not my super long reach, this is what book readers have theorized for years.

So it's their super long reach

It seems too far to me, but who knows.

GRRM is not a fan of doing the obvious. And the obvious would on the face of it, point to Dany, the mother of Dragons, being Azor Ahai, and the central protagonist of the series.

He might seem the obvious choice now for TV viewers who have have it all explicitly signposted and spelt out for them, but believe it or not Jon Snow never started out as the obvious choice. He was nobody of importance, a bastard. Someone who lead no armies and had no birthrights. Someone who was not born on a volcanic island in the midst of a storm ("Salt and Smoke" under a literal bleeding star (the Red Comet on the day Danny was born). Someone who did not have 3 formidable dragons at his side or a Dothraki horde and Unsullied Legion.

GRRM is on record as stating that fan theories have sometimes guessed very close to the mark, to the point that he has to ignore all fan theories to prevent it influencing and changing his work when fans guess correctly. He doesn't want to be put in the dilemma of whether or not to change a plotline because a fan has accurately guessed it.

Jon Snow = Azor Ahai is commonly believed to be one of those accurately deduced plot-lines.

It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.

 reds8n wrote:


... upon reflection I might be half recalling stuff read on here/previous threads


..other theory then.... ?

Regarding Bran, the theory goes that...



Note that this theory doesn't work exactly as is for the books. In the books...



For the show, I think they took an altered, shorthand approach to what's probably a very circuitous thing in the books to come.

 Ouze wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).

I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago

The leaks which have been eerily accurate so far?

Did anyone else catch Melisandre saying that she had "brought ice and fire together"?

Given the title of the series, I'm now wondering whether the "Prince who is promised, who will bring the dawn" is a more metaphorical statement for the son (or daughter) of Daenerys and Jon, an heir who can truly unite the kingdoms and bring about a new age?

Also, so how about Lottlefinger being an alien or timetraveller or Bran or something? Slinging multiverse theory like its nothing? Uhhh?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.

Tricks only surprise the audience when you close the show before they get up and start wandering around backstage.

 Jadenim wrote:
Did anyone else catch Melisandre saying that she had "brought ice and fire together"?

Given the title of the series, I'm now wondering whether the "Prince who is promised, who will bring the dawn" is a more metaphorical statement for the son (or daughter) of Daenerys and Jon, an heir who can truly unite the kingdoms and bring about a new age?

Maybe - maybe it will turn out to be nothing more than their future pet names for each other.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cersei's winning.

I never expected that.

Well done show.

Agreed. It looked for so long that the Lannister army was outnumbered, surrounded, failing, and that Cersei's grip on the throne would be ineffectual.

Aside from all the inconsistencies with distance and time to travel (Euron's fleet must be damn quick), the Lannister plan was nothing short of brilliant to see play out. Euron is making this work, and he steals every scene he's in. After all, haven't we all wanted to see Captain Jack Sparrow in a more R-rated and violent manner?

All the way with Jon - and certainly one thing I realised when Davos was speaking about him - he has done all of his achievements via his own strength. He hasn't relied on some genetic master formula (Daenerys), doesn't have wealth or royal backing, and has even shown his willingness to die for what he believes (and did so). Daenerys, in my opinion, doesn't come close to Jon, and with her forces essentially gone, I can see her allying with Jon properly, as a mutual alliance, rather than bending the knee, and perhaps allowing for growth between them.*

*of course, until Bran tells Jon R+L+J.

Dany has not lost any of "her" forces - she has lost some ships and some unsullied - she has lost allies (due to be being too soft and more importantly plot requirements) - she still has Dragons, Dothraki and Unsullied - the Lannisters have cleverly taken out the entire Westros element which does help with their "them against us".

I personally would have labelled the Dornish and Greyjoy forces as Daenerys', just by them recognising her as the commander-in-chief, so to speak, like how the Tarly army is Cersei's to command. But yes, she still has troops, but the dragons are the equivalent of a nuke, and the other forces are foreign - as you said, the "foreign invasion" that the lords fear.

Jon has stumbled from defeat to near defeat to victory snatched from defeat and people do acknowledge his heritage quite a bit - he might be bastard but his a famous one of a famous man.

They acknowledge him as Ned's bastard, but a bastard no less. In the Watch, being a royal bastard was used against him, however, I will admit that he probably had a one-up on the other recruits in the way of blade training before he reached the Wall. All the same, he rose to command of the Night's Watch against others who had just as much, if not more training and experience, and his allying with the Wildlings has nothing much to do with a Lord they've probably not heard of or care about.

Considering the odds Jon's been against, he's done very well. (I attribute the massive body count of the Siege of Winterfell more to Sansa, for her not telling Jon about the reinforcements at all, but that's just me).

It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.

I'll agree with that, although I got the impression he was about to offer something when she told him to start mining.
Emilia Clarke does do a very good job of keeping Daenerys on that edge of madness and rationality - sometimes you just can't tell what she's going to do next, and I like that.

Yeah I am really enjoying Euron but he has been given vast numbers of ships from nowhere and a treeless islands, the ability to move quicker than anything else, and the ability to predict the enemy movements without error.

He is fun but yeah massive plot device to change the war.

Agreed. I could perhaps get away with saying "he's such a good sailor that he can manipulate the seas/winds/sails to get more speed", and his predictions could just be lucky guesses, but I don't think I've heard a decent excuse for his ships. Especially his own "custom" ship, the Silence (awesome name though).

Err, it has more sails on it, so it moves faster. That's just, like, science.

Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic.

Huh. That's pretty cool, I guess.

There's no actual need for Euron to be at Casterly Rock either, Silence may be there, and that could be taken as an indicator he is supposed to be, but the fleet could easily have headed there while he was still at King's Landing.

Overall one of my favourite episodes in a long time, I was particularly satisified with the Jaime/Olenna scene at the end, I don't think they could have had Olenna face her death in a way more appropriate to her character than downing the poison, dropping a massive gak bomb on Jaime's head and calling Joffrey a don't bypass the filter like this. Reds8n in the space of a few minutes!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

"You're a wizard, Euron."

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Dany has tried to be nice and save lives (again) but its failed badly. I am guessing she will (snip)
Of course Cerci may (snip).

I see someone else couldn't resist those Season 7 leaks from about 10 months ago

The leaks which have been eerily accurate so far?

Yeah, I read them on a lark when they came out and kind of wish I could un-ring that bell since turns out they were all 100% true.

Well, I read all the books well before the series aired, so I guess it's par for the course.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Na, its a magic ship.

No really, in the books its hinted that Euron uses blood magic to lend a supernatural speed to his ship.

Blood Magic is literally the only explanation that works for how he was able to get all of those ships built in the first place, let alone their speed.

I hope at some point on the show they show (and explain) the crew of Silence, since that was a neat thing about Euron.

Already have. IIRC when Euron meets Balon on the bridge of Pyke, Balon asks if its true that Euron cut out the tongues of all his crewmen and Euron responds "I wanted silence".

And Euron's crew were all silent in the attack on Yara's ship. Some of them take Ellaria and Tyene captive, Ellaria tells them to just get it over with and kill them. One of them stays silent, shakes his head and gives a really creep smile.

I saw some of them cutting out tongues.

I guess I missed the exchange on the bridge.

It was last season.

No, I mean I remember them meeting - after all, something important happened at said meeting , just not that specific exchange.

Mario wrote:
I think he was just careful and thus didn't get infected like the maester who originally did it (and had time to write it down before dying). The procedure is just impractical because it hurts a lot (and don't forget to moisturise your skin after the procedure).

I imagine Sam was considerably helped by the nature of his patient. Most men would writhe, greatly increasing the risk to others. But Jorah is a lot more stoic than most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Varys and Mel were good - interesting he looked shocked at the though of dying in Westros - where did he think he was going to die!

Dunno, it may have been more the surprise of hearing that someone with prophetic powers has seen your death. If I heard that the geography of it would be the least of my concerns.

The other element is that Varys knows something else about the Lord of Light that's been hinted at for a long time, something he heard when he was castrated by that sorcerer. I really do think that short scene will prove pivotal in how things unfold, perhaps not in this season but in what is planned for season 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
Ugh. TBH, I sort of hate Euron for the last few episodes. For one, he didn't really earn his place to be the big bad. Joffrey had a long time to earn his place of villainy, as did Cersei, and Ramsey, and so on. Euron just like, showed up. And somehow he has a thousand ships which got built in a few months on an island with virtually no trees? It just feels like a very sloppy, lazy deus ex Greyjoy. And lets not talk about how he looks like he has an entire closet full of Ed Hardy clothing.

Yeah, the story needed Cersei to have a fighting chance, so they gave her a new ally who conjured up an all powerful fleet out of nowhere.

I think the guy playing Euron is taking to the role with such relish that it lets us overlook the plot contrivances, though.

I have no idea who is left in Dorne at this point, leadership-wise. I personally don't see Ellaria walking away from this one.

IMO they're done, but I am not as familiar with Dorne as I could be.

Much like the Faith Militant, Dorne appears destined to be handwaved out of the story once their leaders are killed and plot momentum demands they make way for new conflicts.

In reality, Cersei would be trapped in a city filled with religious cult that hates her more than ever. Whoever just got defaulted in to rule in Dorne would be marching on King's Landing tomorrow, and the Lannisters would be stuck having to leave a large portion of their army in Highgarden to keep any kind of order and maintain food supplies.

But that wouldn't make for much of a story


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
It thought it was telling that Dany offers him Dragonglass and aid and he offers her..........nothing, not even verbal support. He has a very one sided vision of an alliance.

Jon isn't think in terms of alliances at all. He is fixated on stopping the army of the dead and thinks that should be everyone else's priority as well. He isn't wrong that it should be everyone's priority, but the reality is, as Tyrion explained, that other people can't completely change their thinking just because of a conversation with Jon.

Jon doesn't get that, of course. The guy has never been full of insightful thinking.

I assumed the Dorne army went down with the Iron born fleet.

Weren't they returning to Dorne to fetch their army, before laying siege to King's Landing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.

A lot of clever fans figured out a lot of things ahead of time, but even if they hadn't then by now the rest of us regular audience goers would have figured out he was pretty damn important because of all the things he's done, and the massive revelation about his origin.

So now it's only natural to wonder if there's one more twist in the tail. It'd be pretty strange for a story that's been full of twists to make its big reveal in the back of season 5, and then just have everything from there play out straight.

 sebster wrote:
Jon isn't think in terms of alliances at all. He is fixated on stopping the army of the dead and thinks that should be everyone else's priority as well. He isn't wrong that it should be everyone's priority, but the reality is, as Tyrion explained, that other people can't completely change their thinking just because of a conversation with Jon.

Jon doesn't get that, of course. The guy has never been full of insightful thinking.

Jon tells Tyrion in the episode that he knows it's a hard question, and that he's looking for answers (from Tyrion, who doesn't really have them either).

Really, one could solve a lot of problems in the world if there WAS an easy answer for how to get human beings to look at the long-term and greater good instead of their short-term selfish concerns. That's arguably one of the key overarching themes of ASOIAF.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
It only seems obvious now because book readers have been piecing it together for 20 years and spreading these theories all over the internet for everyone to see.

A lot of clever fans figured out a lot of things ahead of time, but even if they hadn't then by now the rest of us regular audience goers would have figured out he was pretty damn important because of all the things he's done, and the massive revelation about his origin.

So now it's only natural to wonder if there's one more twist in the tail. It'd be pretty strange for a story that's been full of twists to make its big reveal in the back of season 5, and then just have everything from there play out straight.

Perhaps, but what has the show actually revealed? It's been far more straightforward and streamlined, and has withheld Azor Ahai and PWWP references and stories from the books that got readers theorizing. I don't believe that the showrunners have even explained



Show Melisandre doesn't seem sure whether Jon or Daenerys is the one, and I think that's where the showrunners want viewers to sit as of now. Which seems reasonable to me based on what we've actually seen in the show. I think there will be plenty of surprised viewers no matter how things break.

And heck, there are still those who think Jaime will fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. *shrug*