Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

On the matter of the Gold seemingly reaching King's Landing.

Part of me feels that was a cop out. Cersei would've been up a certain creek missing a specific implement if it hadn't. And I'm sure that's something we're all desperate to see, no?

But.....

On the other hand, I think it's still the lesser of two cop outs. Cersei can now repay the Iron Bank, which keeps her, more or less, in the fight. But for borrowing more money? Well, how is she going to pay that one?

As covered early in the episode, the Lannister army isn't really trying to hold High Garden, nor one assumes it's Gold Mines and other resources. So they won't necessarily get the income it's famed for.

Then we have Qyburn's 'master stroke' - The Scorpion. Touted as a way to take care of the Dragons, this episode showed that even in the hands of the one most competent warriors, they're really not all that great. Loosed over great distance, and your target can dodge it, even if you are on target in the first place. Up close? Well, better be a kill shot, because you're totally not going to get another one.

Worse, Dany now knows such things exist. We've already seen a new fancy flying from her, using the Dragon's chest to deflect the arrows heading for her. Given her bond with the Dragons, should be too hard to get them to do something broadly similar about the Scorpion's bolts. The element of surprise is gone - and there seem few enough Lannisters left on the field to report that....

And that was just one of the Dragons taking the field - and if my eyes don't deceive, it wasn't even the biggest of the trio. If memory serves, it was Viserion. If they come down from on high altogether, any wall mounted batteries may struggle to draw a bead on them....and a cover of blazing fire is pretty good for putting anyone of their aim.

With both of things in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Iron Bank simply take what they're owed, and go on home. Not only is Cersei far from a certain bet, she may incur debts she can't then repay.

No, Drogon is definitely the biggest Dragon. Viserion and Rhaegal were locked away in an underground chamber in Meereen for several months or years, which stunted their growth. Drogon on the other hand was free range, which permitted his growth.

I was meaning Dany wasn't riding Drogon?

I may be wrong. Was watching it on my commute to work. Shall pay closer attention tonight when I watch it again!

That was the kind of battle I've been waiting 7 seasons for. Pretty awesome. I really thought Bronn was gonna get toasted just because he seemed to have a lot of screen time all the sudden after having none for a while.

I think, eventually, tyrion is gonna convince jamie that they gotta fight the white walkers instead of each other and they'll all team up together, after Jamie kills Cerci. But then, how much of the Lannister army was just reduced to charred husks? Seemed like a whole lot. And I bet most of the ones that weren't are running for the hills or planning to at least.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I was meaning Dany wasn't riding Drogon?

I may be wrong. Was watching it on my commute to work. Shall pay closer attention tonight when I watch it again!

Danny only rides Drogon (the black one), she does not ride Viserion or Rhaegal. Drogon was the dragon she rode into battle with the Lannisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
That was the kind of battle I've been waiting 7 seasons for. Pretty awesome. I really thought Bronn was gonna get toasted just because he seemed to have a lot of screen time all the sudden after having none for a while.

I think, eventually, tyrion is gonna convince jamie that they gotta fight the white walkers instead of each other and they'll all team up together, after Jamie kills Cerci. But then, how much of the Lannister army was just reduced to charred husks? Seemed like a whole lot. And I bet most of the ones that weren't are running for the hills or planning to at least.

From the promo trailer for the next episode, the survivors surrender to Daenerys who orders them to "Bend the knee or die".

Also, while the battle was great: Maisie Williams is killing it this season. Every time you start to get lured into thinking of Arya in the context of how she used to be, one wee look or comment reminds you there's a pretty fethed up shapeshifting murderer lurking under the surface.

No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.

Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....

 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.

And her Mum's. And her Aunt's. And pretty much everyone she knows he's directly or indirectly responsible for the death of.

If that's how the face thing actually works!

 gorgon wrote:
Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....

Judging from the Season 7 plot leak...I think the identity of the 3rd Dragon Rider will surprise you...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.

And her Mum's. And her Aunt's. And pretty much everyone she knows he's directly or indirectly responsible for the death of.

If that's how the face thing actually works!

In the books no, you need to actually skin a person's face and turn it into a mask to assume their identity.

In the show however...who the feth knows.

I think though Littlefinger is smart enough to know that if someone he knew was dead was suddenly coming at him, it's not really them. It would have to be someone alive, like Sansa's face. But he would probably also know that Sansa is like a whole head taller.

 Necros wrote:
I think though Littlefinger is smart enough to know that if someone he knew was dead was suddenly coming at him, it's not really them. It would have to be someone alive, like Sansa's face. But he would probably also know that Sansa is like a whole head taller.

I think he'll be too busy gaking himself to be smart.

We've seen them preparing bodies and hanging the faces up, so we can assume it's as per the books I'd say.

I reckon Arya is just gonna straight up murder him to death in the face until he's killed by violence and stabbing.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We've seen them preparing bodies and hanging the faces up, so we can assume it's as per the books I'd say.

I reckon Arya is just gonna straight up murder him to death in the face until he's killed by violence and stabbing.

The show is inconsistent even with itself. One of the Faceless Men was wearing Arya's own face, but she has not been skinned (to the best of our knowledge).

If she's going to wear any face while killing him, it will be Catelyn's. I assume that will replace the notably missing character from the books.

That was a fantastic episode for sure. I went to do some painting afterwards and couldn't keep my hands steady enough to get anything done.

The Scorpion being not particularly effective as a precision piece still means it will do the job of protecting the Red Keep where it can win out on volume of fire.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Despite the relative failure of the ballista, I think the elephant in the room is that Daenerys is taking a big risk every time she takes the field on Drogon.

Meanwhile, she has two other dragons that badly need riders to be most effective. It's convenient then, that the three people most speculated to become riders for Rhaegal and Viserion are still in the game....

Judging from the Season 7 plot leak...I think the identity of the 3rd Dragon Rider will surprise you...

I've stayed away from the plot leak, so I'm sure I'm vulnerable to a surprise.

It's probably important to note that it was book fans spawning the rider theories, and the show isn't the book, so details leading one in a certain direction may be completely irrelevant when it comes to the show.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Judging from the Season 7 plot leak..

That one specific leak is the one that makes me wish the most I had not read them, but dammit, I didn't know they would all turn out to be true.

I read the plot leak a while ago, but I don't remember any of it. I'm old.

 Necros wrote:
I read the plot leak a while ago, but I don't remember any of it. I'm old.

Yeah, know what you mean. It's possible I read them but the details got mixed in with some other clickbait or something ("These Game of Thrones Leaks Are INSANE!"). I don't really remember anything about who the riders were.

And quite frankly, Twin Peaks is still getting the bulk of my attention and rumination anyway.

So no one else thought it was hilarious that Danny failed spectacularly to achieve the objective of her assault? Sure she eliminated the a fair chunk of the Lannister forces, but the whole reason she ultimately unleashed the Horde and Dragons wasn't to kill them, but to seize the food train, something she spoke about like 15 minutes earlier in the episode. Which she instead roasted.

 Ouze wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Judging from the Season 7 plot leak..

That one specific leak is the one that makes me wish the most I had not read them, but dammit, I didn't know they would all turn out to be true.

Yep, same here.

I really liked that episode. I was pretty split on who I was rooting for in the battle as well, to the point where when the arrow hit Drogon I was like 'good shot Bronn' before 'wait, no'.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

The show is inconsistent even with itself. One of the Faceless Men was wearing Arya's own face, but she has not been skinned (to the best of our knowledge).

It's been a while since I've seen that scene but, I wouldn't rule that as the be-all and end-all of things. If I remember right, there were a shedload of drugs, fumes and quite possibly poison going on in that scene.

In other words, she could have just been SUPER high at the time, or it being metaphorical, etc.

I liked the episode, and I think a large part of me was rooting for the Lannisters to be, well, less royally fethed (although that might have been because a guy from my old school was in the cast in that scene). Still, I found myself so conflicted as to who to support in that.

Bran's messed up - it makes sense, and I think it certainly "justifies" his comments to Sansa. Littlefinger's going to want him removed from the field, that's for certain - the "chaos is a ladder" quote coming back to bite him.

The "cave of convenience" - part of me would have found it kind of hilarious if Jon had drawn them himself, to get Daenerys on his side. I'm guessing he might have bent the knee in the cave, considering how Daenerys is beginning to push Tyrion out if the way and put Jon in the spotlight (and not unrightly so - Tyrion's current battle plans have all failed, and she's lost the Dornish, the Tyrells, Greyjoys, and the Unsullied.

Back onto Daenerys' armies, I really didn't expect the Dothraki to be as good as they were. Drogon, absolutely OP and I loved it (though Daenerys, PLEASE wear some kind of armour? One stray arrow and that brooch isn't going to do feth!), but the Dothraki felt a little TOO good. I mean, they were going up against a shieldwall (hastily assembled, but still formed), with spears/pikes behind, and archers behind them. A solid formation, especially against light cavalry. And don't forget, as Jorah demonstrates in Season 1, Dothraki are not used to fighting armoured targets. Yet here, they cut through well armoured Lannister soldiers like butter. I don't know, I just felt they were a little too good, considering they were light cavalry without any kind of ranged attacks. Still Drogon's a beast by my books - though he might be a little more intimidated now.

Yeah, I think it would have been better for both Dany and the Lannisters if they had been able to more explicitly highlight.

Lannister shield wall > Dothraki.

Giant feth off dragon >>>>>>>>>>> Lannister Shield Wall

Dothraki >>>>> Broken Lannister Shield Wall.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I liked the episode, and I think a large part of me was rooting for the Lannisters to be, well, less royally fethed (although that might have been because a guy from my old school was in the cast in that scene). Still, I found myself so conflicted as to who to support in that.

Bran's messed up - it makes sense, and I think it certainly "justifies" his comments to Sansa. Littlefinger's going to want him removed from the field, that's for certain - the "chaos is a ladder" quote coming back to bite him.

The "cave of convenience" - part of me would have found it kind of hilarious if Jon had drawn them himself, to get Daenerys on his side. I'm guessing he might have bent the knee in the cave, considering how Daenerys is beginning to push Tyrion out if the way and put Jon in the spotlight (and not unrightly so - Tyrion's current battle plans have all failed, and she's lost the Dornish, the Tyrells, Greyjoys, and the Unsullied.

Back onto Daenerys' armies, I really didn't expect the Dothraki to be as good as they were. Drogon, absolutely OP and I loved it (though Daenerys, PLEASE wear some kind of armour? One stray arrow and that brooch isn't going to do feth!), but the Dothraki felt a little TOO good. I mean, they were going up against a shieldwall (hastily assembled, but still formed), with spears/pikes behind, and archers behind them. A solid formation, especially against light cavalry. And don't forget, as Jorah demonstrates in Season 1, Dothraki are not used to fighting armoured targets. Yet here, they cut through well armoured Lannister soldiers like butter. I don't know, I just felt they were a little too good, considering they were light cavalry without any kind of ranged attacks. Still Drogon's a beast by my books - though he might be a little more intimidated now.

Cavalry can't usually break a good shield wall directly - very true and something usually wrong in Fantasy games.

But here the Dragon burned ahole in the wall and also scared the crap out of the remaining soliders - plus the Dothraki did have archers - - theya re shown several times - usually the real strength of similar historical nomad armies.

Great scenes - especially the confusion. I think they have to have something go Dany's way - they had already destroyed all of her Westros allies and cuaght the Unsullied out. Wonder if thats Born dead. They are cutting characaters and isn't he unable to be on Screen with Lena?

Blowing up the food was a bit stupid - kill the soldiers and take the food to feed your own army!

How annoying is Bran. I noticed they mentioned the Gold Company - please pelase don;t have the fething awful plot line.

Really not much bad to say about the whole episode. The battle really made up for the lack luster efforts last time out. I can see where the budget went.

I figure this season will round up the war for the iron throne, and next season will be all about "the great war" where anyone left faces off against the white walkers.

Theon meeting Jon was a bit under played, but then Jon could hardly murder one of dany's allies in that situation.

The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.

The shield wall was hastily assembled and seemed to be stretched thin (as mentioned by Randall or Jaime). They were also just after fighting a siege and marched some of the way to Kings Landing, wouldn't be surprised if they were tired. Heck Tarly suggested flogging them which suggests that they were slowing down due to fatigue, no doubt the Lannisters were caught off guard in a variety of factors

Audustum wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?

Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).

Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).

I think the last episode really missed the mark where they could have driven that home.

They go on a whole tirade about how she's their queen because they picked her and believe in her, not because she's some king's daughter. Which is just a huge opening to point out that John is their king because they picked him and believe in him, not because he has a legit claim.

Of course as a Targ he has as much of a claim as anyone to either throne...

 d-usa wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jon Snow can't bend the knee until he is assured that Daenerys believes in the threat of the White Walkers and, more importantly, will abandon her campaign against the Lannisters and instead march her armies North to join in the imminent War for the Dawn.

What good will it do Jon if he does bend the knee "because it doesn't matter"...and then Daenerys immediately orders him to march his forces south to fight the Lannisters?

Also, this all harps to what Robb told his mother: the Lords of the North made him their King and can just as easily UNMAKE him. Jon can't bend the knee to Danny because most the Lords won't go for it and will just do declare independence. Then the North is in civil war (when it needs to be united) or coldly neutral to itself (when it needs to be united).

Now Jon probably should've TOLD Danny that he represents a Noble Republic more than an Absolute Monarchy, but the show writers are terrible at the nuances of medieval government (and warfare for that matter).

I think the last episode really missed the mark where they could have driven that home.

They go on a whole tirade about how she's their queen because they picked her and believe in her, not because she's some king's daughter. Which is just a huge opening to point out that John is their king because they picked him and believe in him, not because he has a legit claim.

Of course as a Targ he has as much of a claim as anyone to either throne...

The "Tirade" was a conversation where, as Tyrion suggested to him, Jon asked people who were with Dany had chosen her. Missande told them her story - its hardly a "tirade".