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fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

Game designers (I'm looking at you THQ) tend to just assume the Lascannon is some sort of sniper rifle that is really good against tanks. It's a fething WMD. It makes anything less durable than a Land Raider's amour plating go "whoosh!"

I'd be really excited about conscript spam but I only have 40 models of guardsmen that I always used to run as veterans. I'd get my wallet out but Dark Imperium has already emptied it.

 Selym wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

Game designers (I'm looking at you THQ) tend to just assume the Lascannon is some sort of sniper rifle that is really good against tanks. It's a fething WMD. It makes anything less durable than a Land Raider's amour plating go "whoosh!"

Agreed. There is no way that a single human can dissipate the energy of a giant laser beam, but a Land Raider can't. Otherwise the IG would be plastering their tanks in Conscripts rather than giving them lasguns.

Anybody standing close to the beam would be absolutely shafted in anything less durable than power armour.

Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

If I can count a dude that now lives 200+ miles from me... yes?

Longtime IG players almost always have a spare few dozen lads lying about. I once bought a batch of 60 alternate models because even with some pricey p&p from the other side of the world and UK customs demanding a ton of cash they were still cheaper than GW stuff. Really not hard to find players who'll spam that.

Also bear in mind what happened as soon as people realised Scatbikes were good last ed.

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Yeah, and?

 Ir0njack wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects

The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

Eldar Rangers, Necron deathmarks, SM scouts, Vindicar for any imperial army or Ratlings since they are imperium keyword, with T3 4w and 5+ armor commisars can totally be sniped, especially if you want to try and get in range for that full effect FRFSRF. Also 50 pts is a third of the cost of the squad, but if you're running 200-300 conscripts with their own commissar and commander that's what, 800-1000pts in just bodies with no upgrades, that seems pretty impractical.

You know, it's like saying that invisible deathstars were fine because cullexus.

By the time your average amount of snipers kills 2-3 comissars that didn't bother to sit behind blos, the game will end.

I haven't played with or against conscript spam yet this edition, so take this with a grain of salt, but the main issue is the synergies going on. Cap conscripts at unit size 30, make them roll against leadership to take orders, and say they take a number of losses for morale equal to the tens number of what the squad started with (so a unit built at 30 would take 3 losses from commissar, a unit built at 20 would lose 2, etc). I'd say don't implement all of these at once, but try one, maybe two, see how it works, and then finagle it from there and they'll become useful without breaking too much of the game.

 Intruder wrote:
I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Fairly sure that's the point of being a 40k fan.

Damage shouldn't split over, or you end with the differentiation between horde killers and anti heavy weapons.

Don't broke the system just to fix Conscripts guys.

I have ear 0 complaints again'st Tyranid or Ork hordes, because those are powerfull but balanced.

Conscripts+Commisar are the problem. So don't toss "solutions" that only broke the system just to counter a specific combo of two units. Thats just absurd.

A 6+ save and being incapable of taking orders is just enough to balance the Conscripts. If you want make the Commisar hability kill a model for every 10 models in the unit to cancel morale effects.

More BLAM is better BLAM

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Intruder wrote:
I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Fairly sure that's the point of being a 40k fan.

That's in the licence agreement. Should read those.

 Intruder wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

What does that matter? The question is are they overpowered and the answer is yes.

Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

What does that matter? The question is are they overpowered and the answer is yes.

Really? Have you played them? Have you played against them? I've done both, and can tell you they're not nearly as ridiculous as you people think they are. Seriously, unless you've actually seen them in action - just stop. It's embarrassing.

I actually did. They're rediculously good. And they're in an army with even more rediculously good and spammable scion comsquads.
The eldar ig hate is real. You got to tailor your list to oppose this combo. Unless you're playing a horde army yourself.

Shooting the theoretical in the back of the head before you can play against the theoretical= *WIN*

 Intruder wrote:

Really? Have you played them? Have you played against them? I've done both, and can tell you they're not nearly as ridiculous as you people think they are. Seriously, unless you've actually seen them in action - just stop. It's embarrassing.

Yes, I did. They're good, but not game winning or game breaking. They have to work together with their support elements, and those support elements have to have their own power improved by 200 points by the existence of the conscripts.

And yes, they're worth the 200 points because they put a turn or two of CQC buffer between my tanks and the enemy, to prevent my armor from being locked in combat early in the game. By late game they're too depleted to keep being a buffer, but hopefully my armor could have made up the difference with the extra turn of unmolested shooting.

Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

XeZZ wrote:
Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

Is that a forgeworld dread? I guess forgeworld will be getting my money finally.

conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

XeZZ wrote:
Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

Great. Countering a brokenly good unit with a brokenly good weapon. Just what I wanted from the new edition...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Not much sympathy here from me and I play orks mainly. If you want an army that can do everything all around, then you should be playing space marines.

Certain factions in this game have always been better than some others at some things. Eldar have been good at scooting around and getting objectives, and tended to trounce armies that needed to castle up and not move in objective missions. Tau have been good at ignoring cover, and have trounced armies that depended heavily on it. Dark eldar have been good at wounding against toughness and handily trounced armies that depend on MCs.

Things have never been perfectly fair. Sure some armies (Orks, NIds) cant snipe characters.... but they can do some other things really well. The fact that there are some bad matchups for certain factions or types of lists isnt the end of the world, and it actually makes things somewhat interesting IMO. As long as all the factions are viable to win, then I'm 100% okay with having some types of lists be hard counters against others.

Sure, commissar heavy conscript armies are going to be really good against like ork hordes, or nids... But the second it happens to face a space marine army spamming snipers its going to get recked.