Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

casvalremdeikun wrote:How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the back?

Jump pack units and multi-charges come to mind. There's no penalty to charging units for assalting multiple units now.

Keep in mind that Conscripts are terrible at CC, and even if they Fall Back to shoot their expected damage output vs MEQ is abysmal without FRFSRF.

Real News wrote:Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.

You do realize that Conscripts even with buffs have extremely low damage output in shooting, right? A full blob of 50 with FRFSRF at 24 inches will, thanks to BS5+, only deal about 3 wounds to an MEQ squad assuming perfectly average rolls. At 12 inches this jumps to almost 7 wounds, but good luck getting 50 28mm models within 12 inches of a 28mm model on a 6x4 board. Even without other units on the board, it isn't easy.

Units no longer receive cover from having another friendly unit intervene in the line of fire from an enemy unit. Long-range weapons can shoot through Conscripts like they aren't there.

Selym wrote:
I'm struggling to build a viable TAC list for CWE that can account for the fact that over the next year I'm likely to be facing both 'Script spam and mechanised marines with few opportunities to adapt my list...

Any ideas that won't get shot off the table T1 due to the presence of 10-16 lascannons?

Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers on Infantry squads and Wave Serpents. Add Windrisers with Shuriken Cannons to taste.

Personally I would be far more worried about four Imperial Knights at 2000pts than Conscript spam. Fun fact: assuming all die rolls follow the arithmetic mean, you need an average of 27 BS3+ Lascannon shots to kill a single Imperial Knight.

casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

If only horde armies mostly spammed easy-to-kill models, like Conscripts. Or Gaunts. Or Boyz. But sadly, we all know how durable those units are to most every weapon in the game.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

I think you really need to read how Charge and the Fight phase work.

Page 182 in the main rulebook.

Also, theoretically you can ignore the units so you can just charge the guy in the center if he isn't fully surrounded by a circle of Conscripts. You just need to be able to make a 12 inch Charge and be able to circle around to end within 1" of the Commissar.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

You've just put two different things into effect there. You put cost and a qualifier as to them "being good".

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty details...
Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment.
Space Marine Scouts can be affected by abilities for the Chapters.
Rangers? Same thing.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

Yeah...no.

If that were to be the case then Conscripts would be utterly useless, seeing as how the base unit size is 20.

In all honesty, I don't know how people thought things would shake out with Guard but man is it hilarious seeing the outrage at one of the more ridiculous units from before(Conscript blobs) being just as irritating as before.

Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

I think they're too expensive atm. Baneblades can kill them.

Should be 2ppm.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

I'll say it again. The entire Imperium has good snipers. The entire Imperium can take a Vindicare as if it was part of their own, specific unit roster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

Yeah, they got buffed. It's not that horrid. Take some snipers and then battle shock them.

I have no idea why objectives should be based off leadership. You'd end up with ties more often than not and everything would go nuts.

Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

Or, instead of everybody losing their heads over 3 point models, we can focus on a *real* issue, such as the number of hits for former blast and template weapons being unacceptably low? Buff quantity of dice rolled per shooting attack, and those pesky 1W models that are so totally-OP-GW-please-nerf will be easier to kill without depending on morale losses.

I think the anti-IG people in this thread secretly want to see 20 conscripts flee after turn 1. It's almost as if conscripts aren't the problem, but the burning desire to abuse morale mechanics is.

@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

@KommissarKiln: Blast weapons likely need some scaling shots on them, as some of the weapons already have - that said, this only weakens infantry heavy/horde armies (Orks), instead of just Conscripts.

And even if you did increase blasts? You just make them even more valuable, as 50 wounds > any other squad size on the table, especially at 3ppm; 30 Ork Boyz is still 30 wounds - perhaps a KFF will increase this number relatively - but that's 180+80 for 30 Boyz+KFF versus 150+20 for Conscripts. They're still winning, no matter the comparison.

The issue is that the main way you fight massive blobs, morale, doesn't apply to them.

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Or, instead of everybody losing their heads over 3 point models, we can focus on a *real* issue, such as the number of hits for former blast and template weapons being unacceptably low? Buff quantity of dice rolled per shooting attack, and those pesky 1W models that are so totally-OP-GW-please-nerf will be easier to kill without depending on morale losses.

I think the anti-IG people in this thread secretly want to see 20 conscripts flee after turn 1. It's almost as if conscripts aren't the problem, but the burning desire to abuse morale mechanics is.

I would love for that to happen. I would love for you to stop making baseless accusations.

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

What if your army doesn't have snipers? I play Orks- we don't get sniper units.

Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

180+62 points of Boyz+Weirdboy for jump ends up losing to 150+20 of Conscripts. And if I take smaller squads (say in trukks) to try and time everything hitting the Conscript wall at once - well, that just lowers the odds that I'll be able to full clear a Conscript platoon in the first place, and at an even higher cost.

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

I would love snipers being apart of my army if it didn't take 2 vindicare to kill one commissar.

fe40k wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

What if your army doesn't have snipers? I play Orks- we don't get sniper units.

Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

180+62 points of Boyz+Weirdboy for jump ends up losing to 150+20 of Conscripts. And if I take smaller squads (say in trukks) to try and time everything hitting the Conscript wall at once - well, that just lowers the odds that I'll be able to full clear a Conscript platoon in the first place, and at an even higher cost.

If you look a few pages I did note Orks were one potential issue. That's more easily resolved by simply introducing something to Orks rather than nerfing Astra Militarum. Though since you're also a horde army we need to wait and see which horde actually comes out on top in competitive settings before making changes in my opinion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

I would love snipers being apart of my army if it didn't take 2 vindicare to kill one commissar.

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1. Conscripts aren't exactly long range. They're not going to alpha strike you unless you alpha strike them. Wait for turn 2 to deploy your reserves.

Or, if you really want to deploy them turn 1, just take 2 Vindicares. They're only 90 points each.

180 points for a T1 kill, 90 for a T2 kill (though at this point commissar is behind LoS). The Imperial Guard players I know aren't dumb, they know how to play the game.

fe40k wrote:
Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

so you want your boys to be able to mulch the things they assault, and then be invulnerable to counterattack afterwards?

And we do have stuff that can hit back line vehicles, its just not the focus of our army most of the time. Tankbustas, koptas with rokkits and saws, mobile trukk nobs, hell, we can even literally teleport now.

Having snipers is kinda stupid mechanically and in fluff for orks. We got some of the cheapest beatiest troops and HQ's in the game, thats our millieux, not tactical dismantling of complex synergies. if an army is put together with a ton of synergies in mind, it WILL do well against a beater horde of orks. But it will also fall apart to a sniper heavy army. The sniper heavy army will fall apart to the beater horde, and there are tons of other flavors or rock-paper-scissors left to find too. This is good for the game, not bad.

We a brick not a scalpel.

 Quickjager wrote:
180 points for a T1 kill, 90 for a T2 kill (though at this point commissar is behind LoS). The Imperial Guard players I know aren't dumb, they know how to play the game.

The Vindicare can literally deep strike (independent operative) with a 72" range rifle. This is where tactics come into play. You want to put him in places where, for the Commissar to get out of LoS, he has to move away from where the conscript blob wants to go. The range on his buff is only 6". Then the Astra Militarum player can either choose to get those conscripts where he needs them or keep his Commissar safe.

Audustum wrote:

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1.

Dont forget we now have rerolls to make the less likely stuff happen a bit more often.

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

 davou wrote:

Audustum wrote:

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1.

Dont forget we now have rerolls to make the less likely stuff happen a bit more often.

Fair point!

 davou wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

so you want your boys to be able to mulch the things they assault, and then be invulnerable to counterattack afterwards?

And we do have stuff that can hit back line vehicles, its just not the focus of our army most of the time. Tankbustas, koptas with rokkits and saws, mobile trukk nobs, hell, we can even literally teleport now.

Having snipers is kinda stupid mechanically and in fluff for orks. We got some of the cheapest beatiest troops and HQ's in the game, thats our millieux, not tactical dismantling of complex synergies. if an army is put together with a ton of synergies in mind, it WILL do well against a beater horde of orks. But it will also fall apart to a sniper heavy army. The sniper heavy army will fall apart to the beater horde, and there are tons of other flavors or rock-paper-scissors left to find too. This is good for the game, not bad.

We a brick not a scalpel.

I'm actually in favor of Orks getting Snipers.

"Fifteen Hours" had a great little bit with Gretchin sniper teams fighting human sniper teams in no man's land between the Orks and the Guard...of course the Gretchin were themselves the bait for the Guard snipers, who Kommandos would go after.

Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

 Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

Then someone has just made a wonderful daisy chain for an assault army to pull themselves in with?

This kind of nonsense is getting ridiculous. Play the frigging game or don't, quit whining about Conscripts and Commissars.

Na, I'll keep talking to you like I talked to the Eldar in 6th.

 Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

This literally invalidates nothing I just told you. You have a deep striking, 72" gun. You can definitely position it to see into those nooks.

Anyway, making a conga-line like this takes up a lot of movement and limits where those Conscripts can actually go. Unless you're playing some weird variant where every objective he needs is hanging out on his half of the table (in which case that's a mission problem on your end) then you get an advantage just from forcing him/her to do this.

Not to mention, the range on the Conscripts' guns is terrible so if they're making lines this long than you've won half the battle: they can't actually shoot most of your army because they're stretching far back. Just shoot at them yourself and make holes in the chain.

Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

Considering your whole argument has been these ridiculous scenarios of daisy chaining Conscripts across the board or Commissars being hidden from sight but able to give out their aura still while ignoring counterpoint...might be for the best.

It is a 6 inch fething aura, I can hide a commissar behind a chimera, baneblade, or LRBT. Sorry daisy chaining is real, Thunderdome did it all the time last edition.

EDIT: Sorry you can't see past your own faction bias, tournies will tell the truth.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Quickjager on this one - seen a few batreps where this exact damn thing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yes, it's very handy that everyone can take stormhammers...

 Selym wrote:
Yeah, I'm gonna side with Quickjager on this one - seen a few batreps where this exact damn thing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yes, it's very handy that everyone can take stormhammers...

Can't they?

The Imperium keyword covers half the armies in the game, so there's that.

Surely Xenos have superheavy tanks as well? Let me look at their Forge World index... I know for a fact that Orks and Eldar do. Oh, and Tau have that big suit, the Tau'nar, and Necrons have the Tesseract Vault. Oh, and Chaos just have Loyalist tanks so nothing lost there. Let me think of what other factions don't have a superheavy tank of some kind... will get back to you.