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I'm also loving how Conscripts are such an amazing Distraction Carnifex that it's as if the rest of the army can't even be targeted by shooting until they're 100% dead, or that fast Fly units can get past them for short range weapons or melee, or throwing a cheap transport will tarpit their tarpit, or that in any mission besides Relic, there will be other (or no) objectives to hold... Did I mention ignoring them and targetting the rest of the army? That might work.

Complaining about someone sinking 1200 points into 6 full size units with Commissars and Commanders is fair, as is being unhappy with other types of spam; complaining that the units in question exist and have synergy is ridiculous.

Conscripts are okay. Some forge world unit can kill them easily. You just have to pay 3x what a plastic model would cost - work with crap resin - and buy a whole new book of rules to use it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Conscripts are okay. Some forge world unit can kill them easily. You just have to pay 3x what a plastic model would cost - work with crap resin - and buy a whole new book of rules to use it.

That's a whole 'nother set of complaints.

We can start another thread about forge world pricing, quality, and rules, if you'd like? We've only had 30 of those or so, 'bout time for another anyways.

 Quickjager wrote:
It is a 6 inch fething aura, I can hide a commissar behind a chimera, baneblade, or LRBT. Sorry daisy chaining is real, Thunderdome did it all the time last edition.

Then kill the Chimera, Baneblade, or LRBT. When it dies, it can potentially kill the Elite slot Commissar(5+ save with 3W and no Invulnerable Save--a LRBT or Chimera exploding can cause D3 Mortal Wounds within 6"). A Baneblade dying can cause D6 Mortal Wounds within 2D6".

And by the way, that's on each unit. Killing those vehicles you're talking about will take an investiture of high S, rend modifying multi-wound firepower but the end result can kill that Commissar potentially AND start putting Mortal Wounds onto the Conscripts you're whining about.

So please. Tell me more about how you want to hide them next to a vehicle when all vehicles this edition have some kind of "Explodes" rule.

EDIT: Sorry you can't see past your own faction bias, tournies will tell the truth.

Yeah, okay...

You know what tournaments commonly tell us?

Not a whole hell of a lot applicable to the game as a whole. Because tournaments tend to have house rules in effect that aren't going to be in effect for most people's actual games.

Ooooh a D6 chance to do D3 wounds, which is exactly the amount a Commissar has. Lets math that out... 5% chance.

 Quickjager wrote:
Ooooh a D6 chance to do D3 wounds, which is exactly the amount a Commissar has. Lets math that out... 5% chance.

And yet, there's still a chance that it happens...

Maybe you should just start using Commissar Lords for your "example" instead since they have an Invulnerable Save and more Wounds.

But realistically, if you're having trouble taking down a 5+ 3W character using Snipers or maneuvering and then whining about how "the tournament players will show you all!"?

My only reply to you is "Get good, son!".

Why would I? I can take almost 2 commissars for 1 Lord commissar, for more wounds more board presence of the aura AND it is two models.

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

You're so wrong on both points it's not even funny - I'll give you a chance to point out the rules that state that I'm incorrect.

1) With regards to "Militarum Auxilia" and orders: what's the difference between the following two Regiments?

Militarum Tempestus
Militarum Auxilia

The difference is that one of them explicitly can't be taken as a <Regiment> keyword. Additionally, it quite clearly spells out in the Regiment keyword block at the beginning of the Index that if a unit doesn't have <Regiment>, instead it will be from whatever Regiment that is listed as a keyword; which "Militarum Auxilia" is. And since you need a fluff explanation as well - are you honestly trying to tell me that the entire Auxilia support division of the Astra Militarum has NO officers? Who gives them any form of orders then?

And yes, "Officio Prefectus" IS a Regiment - it's the regiment of command and control, the Officer division. There's no benefit atm to taking it, as it excludes you from giving bonuses to other regiments - but you COULD take it if you wanted.

2) Ratlings "Shoot Sharp and Scarper" - "Immediately after making a shooting attack, this unit can move as if it where the Movement phase (though it cannot advance as part of this move)."
2.1) Charge Phase - Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge Phase), and uses all the normal rules, except that a 6 is always required to hit, irrespective of the firer's Ballistic Skill or Modifiers."

You'll notice that the Ratling ability does not have any restrictions detailing that it can only be used in the Shooting Phase; all it requires is a "shooting attack"; you'll also notice that Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack". So, in short, Ratlings can move after firing overwatch.

Shortest version: You're wrong on all counts. I can backup my sources with the rules, can you? At the moment, all I'm seeing is "I don't feel like it should be played that way", not any actual rules - but again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

The Tesseract Vault can delete a third of a conscipt squad, on average, in a turn with just its groovy star-god powers. Then the Tesla Spheres will wipe out (*does quick headmath*) about 10 more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not saying that this means conscripts are fine or whatnot -- I just find it funny.

 Quickjager wrote:
Why would I? I can take almost 2 commissars for 1 Lord commissar, for more wounds more board presence of the aura AND it is two models.

Sure, and now you're spending 2 Elites slots just for redundancy. If tournaments have detachment limits, which I'm certain they will, that's fewer Ratlings and Scion Comm Squads to abuse, even more so when you add in one or more officers for orders. Again, why even bother prioritizing the screen unit when you can deal with actual damage dealers in an IG army?

Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

Come to think of it -- I hadn't really realized how good C'tan are against hordes.

1/6 of a squad deleted, each turn. Any size of squad I might add, as long as they have 1 wound apiece.

Three C'tan + a Tesseract Vault destroys, or almost destroys, any squad of 1-wound infantry in the game

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

Shhh, I'm trying to talk the Ork, not you guardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is not a valid source of tactics. This is the 41st millennium, and We Shall Know No Boardspace!

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

Wait, are you trying to say that any army that can fill a brigade should suck? What's wrong with having good units?

You're severely overreacting to how good conscripts are. Nobody is denying that they're good, but they're not so strong that they need an Exterminatus dropped on them. Considering the position that IG was in during 7th edition, nobody should be surprised that they're a lot stronger in 8th. They got some much-needed buffs and now they're good, really good due to how the core rules were re-structured, but they're not broken. Trying to pre-emptively nuke them back to 7th edition joke status would be complete overkill.

I never said that now stop projecting. That is what your maglight is for guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you guys simply cannot engage a conversation on good faith then I'm sad. Attempting to twist a statement's meaning to such an extent you would make the Keyword <Chapter> or <Regiment> abusers look tame is paltry and pitiable.

Many of your counterpoints are so insulting they don't even deserve the denigration you seem to expect.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is not a valid source of tactics. This is the 41st millennium, and We Shall Know No Boardspace!

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

And now you have to consistently maintain that or lose the Commissar.

But seriously, this kind of theoryhammering is just "But what if..." crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
I never said that now stop projecting. That is what your maglight is for guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you guys simply cannot engage a conversation on good faith then I'm sad. Attempting to twist a statement's meaning to such an extent you would make the Keyword <Chapter> or <Regiment> abusers look tame is paltry and pitiable.

Many of your counterpoints are so insulting they don't even deserve the denigration you seem to expect.

Weren't you done awhile ago?

And really, trying to claim that these counterpoints are being made in bad faith is laughable from the guy who constantly has to change the scenario.

Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

 Quickjager wrote:
Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

Wern't you the one complaining that I sounded exactly like Morgoth?

Do you know Morgoth?

fe40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

You're so wrong on both points it's not even funny - I'll give you a chance to point out the rules that state that I'm incorrect.

1) With regards to "Militarum Auxilia" and orders: what's the difference between the following two Regiments?

Militarum Tempestus
Militarum Auxilia

The difference is that one of them explicitly can't be taken as a <Regiment> keyword. Additionally, it quite clearly spells out in the Regiment keyword block at the beginning of the Index that if a unit doesn't have <Regiment>, instead it will be from whatever Regiment that is listed as a keyword; which "Militarum Auxilia" is. And since you need a fluff explanation as well - are you honestly trying to tell me that the entire Auxilia support division of the Astra Militarum has NO officers? Who gives them any form of orders then?

And yes, "Officio Prefectus" IS a Regiment - it's the regiment of command and control, the Officer division. There's no benefit atm to taking it, as it excludes you from giving bonuses to other regiments - but you COULD take it if you wanted.

2) Ratlings "Shoot Sharp and Scarper" - "Immediately after making a shooting attack, this unit can move as if it where the Movement phase (though it cannot advance as part of this move)."
2.1) Charge Phase - Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge Phase), and uses all the normal rules, except that a 6 is always required to hit, irrespective of the firer's Ballistic Skill or Modifiers."

You'll notice that the Ratling ability does not have any restrictions detailing that it can only be used in the Shooting Phase; all it requires is a "shooting attack"; you'll also notice that Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack". So, in short, Ratlings can move after firing overwatch.

Shortest version: You're wrong on all counts. I can backup my sources with the rules, can you? At the moment, all I'm seeing is "I don't feel like it should be played that way", not any actual rules - but again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

 Quickjager wrote:
Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

Bringing up a series of counterpoints certainly is called debating.

Bringing up a series of counterpoints, having them debunked/countered and then insinuating that someone is "arguing in bad faith" as a counter is called being disingenuous and potentially skirting close to trolling.

ITT: Pointing out that conscripts hordes can be ludicrously tough is wrong and you should leave Dakka for it.

We've gone meta and started arguing that we shouldn't be allowed to argue about the subject.

And yet you had no answer to Selym, "you have to consistently maintain that"...? What does that even mean? It is such a non-answer to a specific but very much grounded in reality and likely situation. Why is it hard to maintain that? What threats exist? You have no counterpoint except to dismiss everyone by calling their contribution, "...this kind of theoryhammering is just "But what if..." crap."

To maintain 6 inches from your own units when you decide where they go and who dies is child's play or dare I say easy enough for a Ogryn?

You should be more polite to Selym who has done nothing except come out with two posts this conversation.

EDIT: Now three posts.

 Selym wrote:

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

People are putting out all sorts of ways to protect the commissar, and all are valid, but they all can't be done simultaneously. If a commissar is in the middle of the blob, it's not behind LoS terrain and is sniperable. If it's daisy chained to behind terrain, there's less troops in the blob and the commissar is potentially vulnerable to deep strike. Without a fair number of models around the commissar he can get engaged in melee. If the conscripts are bunched up they are not taking up much footprint to protect other elements of the army. If they're spread out then their shooting is ineffective.

Tabletop play is different to math hammer basically.

 davou wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Not much sympathy here from me and I play orks mainly. If you want an army that can do everything all around, then you should be playing space marines.

Certain factions in this game have always been better than some others at some things. Eldar have been good at scooting around and getting objectives, and tended to trounce armies that needed to castle up and not move in objective missions. Tau have been good at ignoring cover, and have trounced armies that depended heavily on it. Dark eldar have been good at wounding against toughness and handily trounced armies that depend on MCs.

Things have never been perfectly fair. Sure some armies (Orks, NIds) cant snipe characters.... but they can do some other things really well. The fact that there are some bad matchups for certain factions or types of lists isnt the end of the world, and it actually makes things somewhat interesting IMO. As long as all the factions are viable to win, then I'm 100% okay with having some types of lists be hard counters against others.

Sure, commissar heavy conscript armies are going to be really good against like ork hordes, or nids... But the second it happens to face a space marine army spamming snipers its going to get recked.

It's the other way around, actually. Conscripts lose to Hormagaunts, and Ork Boyz, but absolutely wreck Space Marines.

I've been playing games using them. Works far better on armies that rely on snipes to dislodge them [small elite armies like Space Marines], and are only good for soaking Tyranids' first turn charge to give you two turns of shooting.

Snipers is still not the answer.

As people have said, it takes roughly 2 turns for a Vindicare to kill a Commissar. There isn't just a single Commissar...

It takes every other army even more points to be able to succeed with Snipers.

 Talamare wrote:
Snipers is still not the answer.

As people have said, it takes roughly 2 turns for a Vindicare to kill a Commissar. There isn't just a single Commissar...

It takes every other army even more points to be able to succeed with Snipers.

Sounds like you need to take two of them and not complain because I'm going to bring up Imperium can bring Imperium and therefore it's your own fault.

That's really what some of you sound like, mildly exaggerated of course.

 Quickjager wrote:
Do you know Morgoth?

Look, this doesn't really help. I'm sure as most powerful of the Ainur, Morgoth would have no problems dealing with hordes. Commissars or no comissars, I'm sure his mere dreadful presence would send the poor conscripts fleeing. But we are trying to come up with counters that are viable even if one happens not to be a all powerful lord of darkness.