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 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

Yeah, thats what I think should be. A 6+ armor save and no orders. Or no Orders and the commisar killing a model for every 10 models in the unit to retain the formation.

Hordes aren't the problem. They are, at last, viable. The problem is the Conscripts+Commisar combo.

Ork and Tyranids hordes are very balanced.

And the problem of Grey Knights vs Hordes is not that Hordes as a whole are very powerfull, is that GK are pretty crappy right now. The solution isn't making hordes useless, just buffing GK.

As a chaos player, I really want to know what my snipers are. Really do tell. The closest I can get is the one sorcerer power, but since you can only cast it once per turn it is like a vindicari but I can't spam more if I want to.

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

Never could be. If they didn't have a commissar attached last edition, they weren't taken. And that's before Stubborn and the Commissar's leadership is taken into account.

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

No, because he's part of the unit. When the unit gets targeted, unless you have precision shot, you can't target him until he's the last guy in the squad or the closest model. So it's the same effect.

-They autopass orders

Lord Commissars are Ld 10. That's almost a guaranteed pass, almost.

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

This is by far the biggest buff. The fact that a unit assaulting them can still be shot by other units in the army because they fall back is really the buff they got. Which is entirely offset by the fact that Hormagaunts, Seraphim, and a myriad of other things can charge on turn 1 and 2 where before a turn 3 charges was pretty much the earliest feasible for all but the fastest units.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

They definitely should keep the 5+ armorsave. They have the same equipment as guardsmen. At best, they could receive orders less efficiently to represent crappier training, but without them completely they'd go right back to being garbage.

Commissars could also go up in price, which would be the far more correct thing to do than nerfing conscripts themselves, considering they service more than one unit while last edition Lord Commissars gave stubborn to all nearby units but could only use Summary Execution on the unit that they're in and regular Commissars only serviced the unit they were in, and Conscripts could only be supported by a Lord Commissar.



One more thing to all the people saying to take snipers:

Snipers are ineffective. I hide my Commissar behind a LoS-blocking terrain piece, or one of my many tanks, along side my Company Commander, and you can't get to him.

Look to Boyz and Hormagaunts, and Seraphim and Dominions with Flamers and Punishers, and Fire Warriors and Battlesuits with Flamers to churn through the Conscripts. Snipers are 100% ineffective against conscripts.

I played a game against Tyranids yesterday. I siezed the initiative with a CP and melted the Swarmlord and a squad of 'gaunts with my first turn of shooting. Then, he brought up a Trygon Prime and a squad of Hormagaunts and charged into the Conscripts, made the charge with both units and killed on the order of 30 of them right then and there.

The conscripts were effective, and worth the 210 points spent on them and their support since it save my tanks from that turn 1 charge, and gave me the opportunity I needed for my Punisher and Shadowsword and Pask to melt through the Hormagaunts, but I don't think they're unfair. They allow me to not be instantly locked down by something like Hormagaunts that makes a turn 1 charge. If I hadn't stolen the Initiative, he would have been able to also shoot my conscripts with the Termigaunt squad I wiped out, and/or brought up the Termigaunt squad that was hiding in the back of his board holding a point, and would have killed them all and been able to consolidate his Hormagaunts 6" into 3 of my tanks and my lascannon team to lock them off too.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

I'll try to find these videos - it's possible that I'm wrong, in which case I'll rescind my statements. Thank you for providing a source.

However, you can see based on current wording, how I could think that it's possible to take Militarum Auxilia as a regiment choice.

They really should put this in the FAQ if they've already made a decision on it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

Never could be. If they didn't have a commissar attached last edition, they weren't taken. And that's before Stubborn and the Commissar's leadership is taken into account.

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

No, because he's part of the unit. When the unit gets targeted, unless you have precision shot, you can't target him until he's the last guy in the squad or the closest model. So it's the same effect.

-They autopass orders

Lord Commissars are Ld 10. That's almost a guaranteed pass, almost.

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

This is by far the biggest buff. The fact that a unit assaulting them can still be shot by other units in the army because they fall back is really the buff they got. Which is entirely offset by the fact that Hormagaunts, Seraphim, and a myriad of other things can charge on turn 1 and 2 where before a turn 3 charges was pretty much the earliest feasible for all but the fastest units.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

They definitely should keep the 5+ armorsave. They have the same equipment as guardsmen. At best, they could receive orders less efficiently to represent crappier training, but without them completely they'd go right back to being garbage.

Commissars could also go up in price, which would be the far more correct thing to do than nerfing conscripts themselves, considering they service more than one unit while last edition Lord Commissars gave stubborn to all nearby units but could only use Summary Execution on the unit that they're in and regular Commissars only serviced the unit they were in, and Conscripts could only be supported by a Lord Commissar.



One more thing to all the people saying to take snipers:

Snipers are ineffective. I hide my Commissar behind a LoS-blocking terrain piece, or one of my many tanks, along side my Company Commander, and you can't get to him.

Look to Boyz and Hormagaunts, and Seraphim and Dominions with Flamers and Punishers, and Fire Warriors and Battlesuits with Flamers to churn through the Conscripts. Snipers are 100% ineffective against conscripts.

I played a game against Tyranids yesterday. I siezed the initiative with a CP and melted the Swarmlord and a squad of 'gaunts with my first turn of shooting. Then, he brought up a Trygon Prime and a squad of Hormagaunts and charged into the Conscripts, made the charge with both units and killed on the order of 30 of them right then and there.

The conscripts were effective, and worth the 210 points spent on them and their support since it save my tanks from that turn 1 charge, and gave me the opportunity I needed for my Punisher and Shadowsword and Pask to melt through the Hormagaunts, but I don't think they're unfair. They allow me to not be instantly locked down by something like Hormagaunts that makes a turn 1 charge. If I hadn't stolen the Initiative, he would have been able to also shoot my conscripts with the Termigaunt squad I wiped out, and/or brought up the Termigaunt squad that was hiding in the back of his board holding a point, and would have killed them all and been able to consolidate his Hormagaunts 6" into 3 of my tanks and my lascannon team to lock them off too.

I agree with this completely, people also run bad all comer lists. They need to actually be able to deal with horde armies. Just to test the Crusader land raider I used it vs Guard and slaughtered A mass of conscripts, that plus my devastator squads I was able to deal with the tanks and grunts. I lost by one VP point but it was a great game. People need to stop running small units of big creatures and make real all comer lists. We are still coming out of the MC/Drop pod spam 7th. also hell blasters squads are alot of fun to run.
(Edited because this post was/Is a mess)

I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Colonel Cross wrote:
I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

 Khaine wrote:

Colonel Cross wrote:
I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

No, it's a complaint about them being over powered.

Pour that salt.

The problem is that there is no efficient anti horde guns. You can match them with your own. You can alpha strike. You cannot however mathhammer your way to win whereas you very easily do so against elite infantry or vehicles. There are okay and bad choices against conscripts, there are no good choices.

4 conscripts do more damage and are harder to kill in every situation when compared to a space marine. Whether this makes them overpowered is questionable but its fair to ask whether its intentional.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

The Guardsmen shoot back.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

The Guardsmen shoot back.

Tbf, the Catachans are infamous for this - sometimes even doing it *before* the Commissar has a chance to murder someone. There is a very high rate of commissariat and officerial accidents in that regiment.

Good thing I play cadians, regardless that's a pretty terrible idea for a rule.

It's not something that typically happens on the field of battle - Commissars are pretty intimidating/inspirational figures by default, not to mention well-trained; someone trying to shoot one while in the middle of a firefight with a group of Tau or whatever is probably just putting himself next in line to get BLAMMed, not to mention depriving yourself of someone to help you shoot the enemy. It's better to pick your moment. Commissars assigned to the Catachans or similar unruly regiments are far more likely to have an unfortunate gun-cleaning accident, get drunk and stumble into heavy traffic, or have an encounter with an ork sniper.

Damn those ork snipers.

It seems to me that keeping Commissars from boosting Conscripts is both unfluffy - that's exactly where you'd want them! - and would absolutely neuter the poor cannon fodder. Morale isn't necessarily how you're 'supposed' to kill them; they're crappier Guardsmen, they die to everything, Morale just means they'll completely evaporate without someone to keep them in line. It's a powerful combination, yeah, but one with an obvious vulnerability or two, and it does best when stationed on an objective in heavy terrain so the Commissar has a good place to hide. It's not a be-all-end-all combination.

I reckon the easiest, fluffliest and most balanced solution is to make flamers more scary against large blobs. Men setting eachother on fire while trying to put themselves out 'n' whatnot. Or flamers cause DX mandatory losses due to fleeing in terror or something...

so far this all seems speculative.

wait for a few months, see what happens when the conscript spam is actually applied, and then adjust points costs accordingly in an errata if required.

Tyel wrote:
The problem is that there is no efficient anti horde guns. You can match them with your own. You can alpha strike. You cannot however mathhammer your way to win whereas you very easily do so against elite infantry or vehicles. There are okay and bad choices against conscripts, there are no good choices.

4 conscripts do more damage and are harder to kill in every situation when compared to a space marine. Whether this makes them overpowered is questionable but its fair to ask whether its intentional.

There are very efficient anti-horde weapons and units out there. Seraphim and Flamer Dominions, Wyverns, Mortars, Hormagaunts, Boyz, etc. And there's even more that may not be as points efficient, but are definitely good at it, like Punishers and Stormlords.

I've been playing games, using conscripts, and against fairly large infantry hordes, and none of us are having problems.

Also, I wonder how much cover people play with when they make the argument of 'just daisy-chain the conscripts to the commanders/commissars who are out of LoS'.

Not every table has to be an urban battle. Sometimes a few craters, some treelines and maybe two small ruins will do as well.

fe40k wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

I'll try to find these videos - it's possible that I'm wrong, in which case I'll rescind my statements. Thank you for providing a source.

However, you can see based on current wording, how I could think that it's possible to take Militarum Auxilia as a regiment choice.

They really should put this in the FAQ if they've already made a decision on it.

Yes I agree that the wording is iffy, as I assumed that you could do what you suggested with officers before I saw the video.

So when I look at the forum I see threads in tactica trying to take as many lascannons as possible and discussions vaunting Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks and other units that can take multiple heavy weapons.

Then I see threads complaining about horde armies being OP.

I feel like there might be a correlation.

"Correlation does not imply causation".

Horde's aren't as strong as people think they are; take Missile Launchers, Twin AC Razorbacks, Gatling/Missile Taurox Prime, and other versatile weapons.

People will adapt to bubblewrapping and dealing with horde units and mechanics as time goes on.

I think people are really underestimating armor this edition around; a full mech list is unrealistic for a balanced army list to deal with - hordes still have the problem of actual table space and getting in range; armor can focus itself where needed, and is damn near impossible for most armies to get rid of in reasonable amounts.

Regardless of the status of Hordes and Armored lists; Conscripts are a problem at 3ppm with everything they provide - especially the squad size, orders are 5x more effective on them; since orders are written for 10 man IG squads.

Maybe GW is trying their old version of balance in a new way. Instead of "too many things to account for and counter" it's "each single thing is too hard for a TAC list to tackle, so everyone must bring a tailored list".

Which is stupid.

fe40k wrote:
"Correlation does not imply causation".

Horde's aren't as strong as people think they are; take Missile Launchers, Twin AC Razorbacks, Gatling/Missile Taurox Prime, and other versatile weapons.

People will adapt to bubblewrapping and dealing with horde units and mechanics as time goes on.

I think people are really underestimating armor this edition around; a full mech list is unrealistic for a balanced army list to deal with - hordes still have the problem of actual table space and getting in range; armor can focus itself where needed, and is damn near impossible for most armies to get rid of in reasonable amounts.

Regardless of the status of Hordes and Armored lists; Conscripts are a problem at 3ppm with everything they provide - especially the squad size, orders are 5x more effective on them; since orders are written for 10 man IG squads.

On vehicles, yes. I ran an IG list on opening day consisting entirely of tanks, and a token tax of troops. People didn't like me for it.

Again, I think they're quite okay as is. We need them in a long line so we can actually have a turn when playing the Tyranids, and Orks, and Chaos, etc, and not have our tanks and artillery turn into a big melee ball.

They're not hard to kill, but they are 1 turn of stalling so that we can actually have a shooting phase. Almost every faction has a means to massacre them, except Space Marines, and I think that's the "problem". And I don't really thing that's a problem, because small, elite forces shouldn't be able to confront and beat massed troops in open battle, but should instead on careful strikes to cripple the support and the leadership and complete the objectives, which, it's worth mention, the Space Marines are certainly capable of.

Space Marines also have generalist units, that are capable of performing many tasks, but excellent at none, and pay more for versatility, while we have specialist units that are good at their one job but poor at all other ones, and are accordingly cheap.

Azoqu wrote:As a chaos player, I really want to know what my snipers are. Really do tell. The closest I can get is the one sorcerer power, but since you can only cast it once per turn it is like a vindicari but I can't spam more if I want to.

Do I get a cookie if I answer your question by telling you about MoK Warp Talons with an Icon being able to charge and kill most anything the turn after they come in? Because I feel that deserves a cookie.

Khaine wrote:Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

The downside with Conscripts is that while they are very efficient for their points their average damage output is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, quite low. Arguably, if they weren't so efficient for their points they would be garbage.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

The downside with Conscripts is that while they are very efficient for their points their average damage output is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, quite low. Arguably, if they weren't so efficient for their points they would be garbage.

Oh you done diddly dun it now!


I did some mathammering with my Eldar, and came to the conclusion that unless I actually bother reading up on DE units, I cannot kill conscripts fast enough. I also found that I'm almost immune to conscripts anyway, so...

While I'm on the subject, the general reaction to 8E conscripts basically reads like this 4chan thread (warning, huge):

Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

Waaargh wrote:
Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

This is entirely true. Because we have a line of men to absorb first turn charges, the rest of our army gets a turn of shooting to deliver a crippling blow to the enemy.

But Sisters Seraphim supported by Celestine can hypothetically reach 28"-43". Hormagaunts or Genestealers can hypothetically reach 23-41" when supported by the Swarmlord. Orks under Da Jump have a 48% chance of getting the 30 boyz in, and a 73% chance of getting either the boys or the wierdboy in. Of course, anything that can deep strike has a natural 28% chance of making it in naturally and a 52% chance with a command-point re-roll of one of the dice.

If we didn't have our long line of space-consuming, deep-strike blocking, charge-blocking cheap bodies, we wouldn't be able to actually play the game.

And, of course, Hormgaunts and Seraphim can still conceivably get to the tanks, since Seraphim can fly over the conscript perimeter and Hormagaunts can consolidate 6", effectively placing everything within 8" of the Conscripts in danger.


And, of course, long-range shooting armies, like ourselves and the Tau, can shoot past the conscripts to take out their supporting elements without actually having to deal with the conscript line itself.


Conscripts are good, there's no question of it, and they will be the key to us winning. Without them, we have no effective defense against assault-based armies. But you can overcome them, and I don't think they're undercosted. If they cost anymore, they'd be too expensive for a turn or two of delaying action. Remember, they'll almost never make back their cost in points through their own shooting and melee power, they make back their cost through the extra round of shooting they buy the tanks and guns behind them.

As I've been saying, conscripts are definitely strong and are an important part of a well-rounded Guard army.

However, in all the battle reports I've seen nobody has had *too* much trouble dealing with them. They've done their job and they were a rock-solid unit, but they didn't single-handedly roll up the table.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

This is entirely true. Because we have a line of men to absorb first turn charges, the rest of our army gets a turn of shooting to deliver a crippling blow to the enemy.

But Sisters Seraphim supported by Celestine can hypothetically reach 28"-43". Hormagaunts or Genestealers can hypothetically reach 23-41" when supported by the Swarmlord. Orks under Da Jump have a 48% chance of getting the 30 boyz in, and a 73% chance of getting either the boys or the wierdboy in. Of course, anything that can deep strike has a natural 28% chance of making it in naturally and a 52% chance with a command-point re-roll of one of the dice.

If we didn't have our long line of space-consuming, deep-strike blocking, charge-blocking cheap bodies, we wouldn't be able to actually play the game.

And, of course, Hormgaunts and Seraphim can still conceivably get to the tanks, since Seraphim can fly over the conscript perimeter and Hormagaunts can consolidate 6", effectively placing everything within 8" of the Conscripts in danger.


And, of course, long-range shooting armies, like ourselves and the Tau, can shoot past the conscripts to take out their supporting elements without actually having to deal with the conscript line itself.


Conscripts are good, there's no question of it, and they will be the key to us winning. Without them, we have no effective defense against assault-based armies. But you can overcome them, and I don't think they're undercosted. If they cost anymore, they'd be too expensive for a turn or two of delaying action. Remember, they'll almost never make back their cost in points through their own shooting and melee power, they make back their cost through the extra round of shooting they buy the tanks and guns behind them.

Pretty sure every army has to contend with this stuff without have the luxury of spending 200 points for a 50 man screening line that can't efficiently be killed that is more efficient at killing tanks than dedicated tank weapons....This unit flat out needs to be unable to receive orders and not be effected by the commissar rule. They are fodder. If you want a stalwart unit that is hard to break you should have to upgrade to guardsmen (who have training) and cost a reasonable 5 points (more comparable to what other armies pay for a cheap body). Unbreakable 30 man guard units will still be hugely effective.

Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

Lol how is this thread still going?