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 SHUPPET wrote:
no no, 1 weeks time is totally enough to completely evaluate a meta

That's not actually happening, but you know, if it was, it's still better than attempting to use zero experience theorycraft based on half-assed mathhammer to justify saying OMGPLSNERF, like you're doing.

If you had a point you'd be arguing it instead of sitting around whining all the time about how everyone else's arguments are better than yours.


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tneva82 wrote:
And how many IG players had already 100+ conscripts lying around?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
no no, 1 weeks time is totally enough to completely evaluate a meta

That's not actually happening, but you know, if it was, it's still better than attempting to use zero experience theorycraft based on half-assed mathhammer to justify saying OMGPLSNERF, like you're doing.

If you had a point you'd be arguing it instead of sitting around whining all the time about how everyone else's arguments are better than yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
And how many IG players had already 100+ conscripts lying around?

Several people in this very thread already mentioned having them and even using them. And t hey all said the same thing-- conscripts aren't as powerful as the theorycrafters have said they are.

If I had 100 conscripts I'd probably be saying "conscripts are fine - just ignore them - It's just a game - why you mad bro?"

Seriously...half assed theory craft? Which is essentially playing a simulated game...proves nothing about how strong units are? Whoa Jeezy. When you took math in school did you just think it was some mumbo jumbo?

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

A group of PJ's (roughly 12) could not take one a battalion of infantry (40-80) in today's modern day military...

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

No, no it's really not. Do you think that Delta Force or Seal Team 6 mows down enemy combatants by the thousands in open battle? No, in fact Special Forces' job is usually to avoid fighting as much as possible. They usually have one particular target, one thing that needs to be blown up or one hostage that needs to be extracted, and they want to get to that one target with as little shooting as possible. Getting their position fixed and overrun is exactly what they're weak against. What makes them so effective is that they're really, really good at avoiding open battle entirely.

Elite armies holding out against an endless horde only happens in movies. In practical combat, even the most elite highly trained special forces follow the rule of 3: if at all possible, only engage a target that you outnumber at least 3:1.

Now, if you want to argue that Space Marines should be all about recreating that cinematic experience instead, there's a few problems with that.

1: You're asking another player to help you recreate a cinematic experience where you effortlessly sweep his models off the table. Think of the other player, man.

2: Tactical Marines cannot simply shoot a shooty horde off the table as long as their bolters are Rapid 1. It's not their role, either deploy a specialized anti-horde unit to deal with the problem, or leverage the tacs' flexibility, which is their real asset, to shoot at melee units and melee shooty units.

3: If Space Marines were really the gods of battle you imagine them to be, they would cost way more than 12 points.

 Selym wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

You mean the Gladius that literally nobody denied was OP but you're deciding otherwise to fit your narrative?

Whole threads went down with SM players arguing that the IG had it better in 7e. So no.

I've seen those threads, and they were telling the IG player what to do as they refused to adapt (at all). Non-Gladius wasn't an issue, but as long as Gladius exists, Tactical Marines can be in the OP category.

So while we do need to adapt to hordes now...theres not really a good anti-horde weapon. With my Necrons I don't have to worry as much, simply because Warriors will get them down to a 6+, Gauss Immortals dropped off will negate their save entirely, and Tesla Immortals will combo well with Overlords.

However, with my Marines (and to an extent Chaos Marines as I just use the same models to experiment with lists for both armies) and Skitarii, I don't exactly have a lot of great options. I definitely have some weapons more efficient than others, but none of them actually good. I'm only lucky that the Ranger squads I have built get Arqs, and that I MIGHT be able to damage and kill Priests and Commisars.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

Yeah...Those greek heavy infantry really struggled against hordes.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

No, no it's really not. Do you think that Delta Force or Seal Team 6 mows down enemy combatants by the thousands in open battle? No, in fact Special Forces' job is usually to avoid fighting as much as possible. They usually have one particular target, one thing that needs to be blown up or one hostage that needs to be extracted, and they want to get to that one target with as little shooting as possible. Getting their position fixed and overrun is exactly what they're weak against. What makes them so effective is that they're really, really good at avoiding open battle entirely.

Elite armies holding out against an endless horde only happens in movies. In practical combat, even the most elite highly trained special forces follow the rule of 3: if at all possible, only engage a target that you outnumber at least 3:1.

Now, if you want to argue that Space Marines should be all about recreating that cinematic experience instead, there's a few problems with that.

1: You're asking another player to help you recreate a cinematic experience where you effortlessly sweep his models off the table. Think of the other player, man.

2: Tactical Marines cannot simply shoot a shooty horde off the table as long as their bolters are Rapid 1. It's not their role, either deploy a specialized anti-horde unit to deal with the problem, or leverage the tacs' flexibility, which is their real asset, to shoot at melee units and melee shooty units.

3: If Space Marines were really the gods of battle you imagine them to be, they would cost way more than 12 points.

None of this really applies to anything. This isn't elite infantry vs new recruits, this is 8 foot tall genetically enhanced killing machines armed with .75 caliber automatic grenade launchers against new recruits.

Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

 ross-128 wrote:
Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

Holy crap I was just talking about how worthless heavy infantry are in this game - they have 0 purpose. They lose out to hordes in every situation - ALWAYS. Tatical marines have always been GAK - I don't expect that to change really. There is literally 0 arguement against conscripts being OP though. They beat Dedicated melle units in close combat. They are underpointed. It's clear as day.

I'm not even sure what's being argued at this point. I myself am happy to try to solve hordes instead of scatbike/warp spider/wraithknight lists. Sounds like conscripts should have 6+ armor or even no armor, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

I did. I really like them so far. They are a very BA unit.

But over 70ppm? Or are you going by the price in the Dark Imperium box? Because that's not accurate.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

Yeah...Those greek heavy infantry really struggled against hordes.

Hey man I was just saying that your sentence "elite infantry's role in warfare has always been to crush light infantry" is demonstrably false, as often the preferred asset against heavy, elite armies has been light infantry, e.g. Agincourt.

Just sayin'.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

I did. I really like them so far. They are a very BA unit.

But over 70ppm? Or are you going by the price in the Dark Imperium box? Because that's not accurate.

No i paid 75 pp i think. They were $$ because of no scatter deep strike. Maybe they work better for ba because dc are very distracting. They are useless on a open map, but on a normal map i think they are close to okay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

"Normal" Space Marine chapters were not on the list, you'll notice. Normal space marine chapters have cheaper infantry, and access to equipment like whirlwinds, thunderfires, and loads of frag missiles if they want it. Normal space marines should be fine at murdering hordes, and they are.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights dont go around conquering planets. Theyre used in specific situations, and given specific equipment for their respective, particular missions. Pitched battle against renegade masses isnt their thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whoa Jeezy. When you took math in school did you just think it was some mumbo jumbo?

I'm an accounting major; as such, I'm fairly certain I've taken more advanced math classes than most people here, and deal with math far more often in a more practical setting. And it's taught me the quite simple fact that problems the real world is rarely as straightforward as a multiple choice question on a test.

The half-assed theorycrafting that says "OMG CONSCRIPTS OP PLS NERF!" has not thus far held up to anyone's playtesting. And it's fairly obvious why-- this half-assed theorycrafting assumes that conscript-using players are given every advantage possible by their opponents and the opponents will be making every single tactical mistake possible. Like "all of my conscripts will fire at once in rapid fire range, but at the same time, they're so spread out you can't flank them to get what they're protecting!". Or "There's enough conscripts to completely block line of sight to the units they're protecting, yes even if they're large vehicles!". Or "I have nothing better to spend command points or orders on than conscripts!". Or "if you can't delete conscripts in one turn they're overpowered!".

Your theorycrafting is crap, because your unspoken assumptions are crap, and do not reflect the real situation in the real world.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

Holy crap I was just talking about how worthless heavy infantry are in this game - they have 0 purpose. They lose out to hordes in every situation - ALWAYS. Tatical marines have always been GAK - I don't expect that to change really. There is literally 0 arguement against conscripts being OP though. They beat Dedicated melle units in close combat. They are underpointed. It's clear as day.

We've already gone over why they don't, you just refuse to believe you could possibly be wrong. Which is why I've been telling you to go get some plastic army men and play the game.

Because I know that no amount of argument, no amount of math, and no amount of logic will ever change your mind. It's clear that the only thing that could possibly change your mind is if you go actually play as IG and lose. So go do that.

And make sure you're playing a real opponent, because everybody fudges the results when they play against themselves.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

This game is not based around modern warfare - men are fighting with swords - it is basically midevil combat with a futuristic flare to it. Space marines are basically modeled around roman legions...quite literally - they are 1000 man armies that break down to the squad level - that is exactly what a roman legion was. What did roman legions do? They conquered hordes of germanics/ and brittans time and time again - always outnumbered - always winning.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

This game is not based around modern warfare

Nor around medieval warfare.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whoa Jeezy. When you took math in school did you just think it was some mumbo jumbo?

I'm an accounting major; as such, I'm fairly certain I've taken more advanced math classes than most people here, and deal with math far more often in a more practical setting. And it's taught me the quite simple fact that problems the real world is rarely as straightforward as a multiple choice question on a test.

The half-assed theorycrafting that says "OMG CONSCRIPTS OP PLS NERF!" has not thus far held up to anyone's playtesting. And it's fairly obvious why-- this half-assed theorycrafting assumes that conscript-using players are given every advantage possible by their opponents and the opponents will be making every single tactical mistake possible. Like "all of my conscripts will fire at once in rapid fire range, but at the same time, they're so spread out you can't flank them to get what they're protecting!". Or "There's enough conscripts to completely block line of sight to the units they're protecting, yes even if they're large vehicles!". Or "I have nothing better to spend command points or orders on than conscripts!". Or "if you can't delete conscripts in one turn they're overpowered!".

Your theorycrafting is crap, because your unspoken assumptions are crap, and do not reflect the real situation in the real world.

You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

What he's saying is garbage in, garbage out. If you start with bad assumptions, your math will give you bad results.

For example, if I assume that a cow is a uniform sphere coinciding with its center of gravity, and is in a frictionless environment with no air resistance, this will more or less suffice for calculating the orbital mechanics of a cow that has been launched into space. However, those assumptions will not tell me how long it takes a cow to walk from Oklahoma to Nebraska no matter how much math I do.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

Strawman arguments are shameful and you should be ashamed of yourself for making them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

"Normal" Space Marine chapters were not on the list, you'll notice. Normal space marine chapters have cheaper infantry, and access to equipment like whirlwinds, thunderfires, and loads of frag missiles if they want it. Normal space marines should be fine at murdering hordes, and they are.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights dont go around conquering planets. Theyre used in specific situations, and given specific equipment for their respective, particular missions. Pitched battle against renegade masses isnt their thing.

Alright it's math time I guess.

WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

Strawman arguments are shameful and you should be ashamed of yourself for making them.

How is it strawman? You work with math on a regualr basis for a living - and disregard it's ability to determine units strengths in a game which breaks down to dice rolls and statistics. You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting your own craft.

I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

Hormagaunts should beat conscripts in melle - if you disagree with this you are most certainly don't understand what the term balance means.