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ITT:

> 5+ Sv T3 50W units are unstoppable!
> Maths isn't real!
> Conscripts both can and can't fire 200 lasrounds at everything!
> No they can't, yes they can!
> IG should be OP this ed, they were UP last one!
> No they shouldn't, but nids need to be made unplayable!
> IG have unlimited boardspace an support units!
> Spending 4 turns and 3x the guard's pointscost of firepower to disable one unit is a fair trade!
> You're a liar!
> No, you're a liar!
> Mods! Somebody is arguing with me!

Is there anything of actual value to discuss here?

 Insectum7 wrote:
@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

Dunno that is quite a lot of drop meltas. i guess it will have trouble against well turtled or well spaced out armies that prevent you from dropping in close enough.

it might not have that much of a drop on heavy infantry though large quantity of dakka from the conscript line, if they ever make it up far should be okish for it.

I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

 Selym wrote:

> IG should be OP this ed, they were UP last one!
> No they shouldn't, but nids need to be made unplayable!

This has been the most crazy one. Is like... "wow, the emphaty". Thats the kind of people you don't want to ear their feedback

 Desubot wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

Dunno that is quite a lot of drop meltas. i guess it will have trouble against well turtled or well spaced out armies that prevent you from dropping in close enough.

it might not have that much of a drop on heavy infantry though large quantity of dakka from the conscript line, if they ever make it up far should be okish for it.

I hear ya. But, yeah, I think a well defended castle would make a strong stand. It'd be a fun siege. Lots of Lascannon and Missile Launcher troops backed by AC Razorbacks and Whirlwinds, against the mind-wiped horde of bodies.

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

 Selym wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

Idk if serious or joking and I'm just bad at sarcasm o.o

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

Idk if serious or joking and I'm just bad at sarcasm o.o

I'm a logical person, of course I'm serious. It's the only solution.

Im not sure we will see more that 100 Conscripts (2 squads) played in competitive games. Its just too much to realistically move. I am noticing that Tournaments for 8th are starting to impliment a minimum 4 turn rule... which i like.

I run 2 squads of 40 and its a pain moving and figuring out who is in rapid fire range,orders, retreats ect ect.

6th edition had lots of armies running blob squads.. but never really more that 2 of them. Anything more was unweildy and slow.

for fun games.... its not fun moving 300 conscripts. Not sure 100 is fun either. Blobs have been around and could be utterly rediculous in 7th if you added characters too them and i didnt really see many on the tournament tables.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You just cant argue with math.

Actually, I can, because your math sucks and plenty of people have pointed out exactly why your math sucks and why you're wrong.

Humm - you don't think I can set up a 50 man unit to maximize against assault units? Setting up in formation like so will guarantee between30-40 bases within 1" contact with a 20 man charging unit due to 3" pile in moves.
000 00000 000
00000000000000000000
00000000000000000000 Conscripts

0000000000 Hormagaunts (this is hormagaunts best case scenario - provided there are is impassible terrain forcing them to hit more central in the ranks.
0000000000
And since you chose what models die - it's relatively easy to ensure you get the most attacks back possible. This number will be between 30 and 40 attacks back - I used the figure of 40 vs 20 hormagaunts in my mathhammer presentation. In my mathhammer presentation

Lets assume this is the result after overwatch (this is without frfsrf - these hormagaunts got a 9 inch charge off out of a trygon and they have a synapse creature in range to make them fearless)
24 hormgaunts - 48 attacks
48/2 = 24 reroll 1's to hit 24/6 = 4 4/2 = 2 = 26 hits 26/2 = 13 reroll 1's 13/6 = (2.2 we will call that 2 for this round) 2/2 =1 = 14 wounds 14/3 = 4.666 (this is the saves number we will call that 5) = 9 wounds. That's 27 points worth of damage - the unit has already taken 30 points of damage during overwatch.
Lets say the bare minimum 30 attacks back from the conscripts.
10 hit - 5 wound - 1 saves = 4 wounds

So the round goes 10 hormaguants dead 9 conscripts dead. 50 points lost for the nids 27 points lost for the conscripts.
Most the Hormagaunts are in base contact and can't consolidate. Those that do aren't able to prevent the unit from falling back.
Round 2 - 41 conscripts fall back - get back into the fight order. 82 las guns shots 82/3 = 27.3 (27) 27/2 = 13.6 (14) 14/6 = 2.333 (well call that 2 saves) = 12 dead hormagaunts = 8 hormagaunts remain. Barely enough to even survive the overwatch damage - and are beaten if they charge.

End results - 41 conscripts remain - 8 hormagaunts remain - this is the average result for a first turn alpha assault against conscripts - hormgaunts managed a long charge - hit the formaton where is was weakest and still - they got plastered. Not in the least bit OP if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedsdead wrote:
Im not sure we will see more that 100 Conscripts (2 squads) played in competitive games. Its just too much to realistically move. I am noticing that Tournaments for 8th are starting to impliment a minimum 4 turn rule... which i like.

I run 2 squads of 40 and its a pain moving and figuring out who is in rapid fire range,orders, retreats ect ect.

6th edition had lots of armies running blob squads.. but never really more that 2 of them. Anything more was unweildy and slow.

for fun games.... its not fun moving 300 conscripts. Not sure 100 is fun either. Blobs have been around and could be utterly rediculous in 7th if you added characters too them and i didnt really see many on the tournament tables.

Easily solved by using rank trays.

I mean, being able to affectively kill gaunts has never really made a unit OP... a unit of 10 zerkers could do it just as easily with their double pile in double fight phase special rule. Killing 20 gaunts (2x their numbers) easily. Also, you're talking 50 scripts to 20 gaunts.

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

Those 5-man snap fit Cadians are $8.50 on Amazon or just $10 at GW shop. Basically $2 a piece. Not too bad.

I will be running 3x 25 man Conscript Squads in my 1000 point list with some other fun stuff. So please go for them and make a mess of them on the battlefield.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I mean, being able to affectively kill gaunts has never really made a unit OP... a unit of 10 zerkers could do it just as easily with their double pile in double fight phase special rule. Killing 20 gaunts (2x their numbers) easily. Also, you're talking 50 scripts to 20 gaunts.

its was an equal point value 30 gaunts vs 50 scripts. 150points each. It's not just conscript's all melle units are pretty boned when an enemy can fall back and shoot you in return. Conscripts just epitomize the BS by being super cheap and having insane overwatch and having 200 lasgun shots for a 150 point unit. This edition is supposed to be balanced.

They are still 300$ for 150 Conscripts.

You can go better with historical riflemen and put them a bunch of lasguns. You can have 0,50 cents a model in historicals with ease.

 womprat49 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

Those 5-man snap fit Cadians are $8.50 on Amazon or just $10 at GW shop. Basically $2 a piece. Not too bad.

I paid less for more Cultists off Ebay. It's not out of the question to do the same with guard.

Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

Tyel wrote:
Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

You are very intelligent.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

Point for point, generic assault marines with no upgrades and no transport will likely find half the unit dead before the reach melee range. With jump packs they do better with deepstriking, but missing the charge out of deepstrike again hurts.

Generally, nothing that isn't a vehicle, monstrous creature, or mounted in a vehicle will perform particularly well against them. Oh or outranging them that works as well. Against MEQ, conscripts are only marginally less powerful than a plasma havoc squad of the same cost would be, and with orders they dramatically outperform plasma havocs against MEQ for their price. Conscripts butcher all other infantry fairly easily.

Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

 ross-128 wrote:
Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

The trygon that got the gaunts there costs almost 200 points. I wasn't ignoring anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

The trygon that got the gaunts there costs almost 200 points. I wasn't ignoring anything.

Is there any particular reason why it's just sitting there and watching instead of charging in first? It is significantly more capable of absorbing the overwatch than they are. Paying 200 points just for the synapse aura is wasteful, if you're going to put it on the table you should use it.

You're also ignoring the fact that gaunts being over-priced is a much more plausible explanation than conscripts being under-priced, when you consider how both units compare to Ork Boyz.

Tyel wrote:
Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

Terrible damage, unless with 12" and given orders. And then its merely ok-ish.

This thread has gotten out of hand a few times now - I'm going to leave it locked for at least a day. Please remember, you can make your point more effectively by Not being rude... when you wrestle in mud, everyone gets filthy!

Locking...