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Hi, I'm new to the hobby and i want to start a shooty CSM army. What are some good units to include on my list? I want to use daemon engines like the forgefiend on my list, but then I saw its lacking BS of 4+. I decided to use forgeworld, and I'm debating on either the hellforged Deredeo dreadnought or hellforged Leviathan dreadnought.

Havocs

All three of the fw units you mentioned are good, but I actually think the decimator can outshine them shooting wise points per damage. What you really want are some rapiers, quad heavy bolters for chaff infantry, laser destroyers for armor.

- Deredeo. He hits on 2's, has 8s8 shots at two damage (butcher cannon array), and can give your whole gunline a 5+ invuln if deployed carefully. He's also great against flyers that have -1 to hit as you can activate the targeting array. I like to think of him as the anchor to my gun lines.
-Decimator. The only other dreadnought that can be pure shooting. Best weapons are either the dual butcher cannons, or the soul burners. Out of the two I'd say the butchers are more of a safe pick, and the soul burners have a little randomness but don't need to roll to wound and can't be saved against and so can wipe the best armoured units as easily as a hormagaunt..
-Rapiers. Quad heavy bolters. Take at least 6 (use the treads from kataphron breachers - buy on eBay and you'll save a lot) and you'll have72 s5 ap-1 shots. I wouldn't bother with laser destroyers as the quads are so good and you can get anti tank elsewhere. Worth noting that 36 s5 shots can do considerable damage to t9.
- Fire raptor. It has two quad rapiers strapped onto it, can take four lascannons and has ten shots at s6 with two damage. Make it hover within 6" of deredeo and chaos Lord for a 5+ invuln and rerolls of 1.
- Havocs. They aren't as good as rapiers, but they're a cheaper source of anti tank, and you don't wanna waste rapier points on laser destroyers unless you have very tough enemy armour. Point for point against most multi wound stuff, you're gunna be doing more damage with more lascannons than fewer destroyers as you'll have a greater chance to hit and s12 wounds t7 and above the same as s9 until you hit t9, and most things are t8 and under. Although you don't have the potential for 18 wounds in a single shot with lascannons.
- Poxwalkers. They don't shoot, but you'll want the bubble wrap and obj holding ability if you want to win with a gunline. Think about taking 60+.
- Chaos Lord. An auto-include for most chaos shooty stuff. You have so many shots being fired that you'll really benefit from his rerolls of 1.
- Sorcerer. He could buff a unit of rapiers so they're hitting on 2's and then rerolling ones with the Lord. So, statistically, would only miss one of the 36 shots. I'd say he's a bit situational, and I'd probably prefer to save the points for more dakka or more poxwalkers.

These are the prime chaos shooting units, and with a bit of support (chaos Lord and bubble wrap for denying charges and area for enemy deepstrikes), they can really devastate your opponent. Let me know if you're interested in mixing with renegades and I'll give a breakdown of their best stuff too.

I would actually stay away from Forgeworld if you're new to the hobby. The model kits are a bit more intricate than the GW ones and require more work.

Also, you have to buy the forgeworld index which means more bookkeeping in a hobby that already scares a lot of people off because of the amount of bookkeeping. That problem has been largely solved by the comming of 8th, but still.

Of course, if you're set on having FW in your army, I'd say the Deredeo is very good. Butcher cannon array puts hurt on both vehicle and infantry units and its -2 Ld is a very strong ability.

Lancelot185 wrote:
- Deredeo. He hits on 2's, has 8s8 shots at two damage (butcher cannon array), and can give your whole gunline a 5+ invuln if deployed carefully. He's also great against flyers that have -1 to hit as you can activate the targeting array. I like to think of him as the anchor to my gun lines.
-Decimator. The only other dreadnought that can be pure shooting. Best weapons are either the dual butcher cannons, or the soul burners. Out of the two I'd say the butchers are more of a safe pick, and the soul burners have a little randomness but don't need to roll to wound and can't be saved against and so can wipe the best armoured units as easily as a hormagaunt..
-Rapiers. Quad heavy bolters. Take at least 6 (use the treads from kataphron breachers - buy on eBay and you'll save a lot) and you'll have72 s5 ap-1 shots. I wouldn't bother with laser destroyers as the quads are so good and you can get anti tank elsewhere. Worth noting that 36 s5 shots can do considerable damage to t9.
- Fire raptor. It has two quad rapiers strapped onto it, can take four lascannons and has ten shots at s6 with two damage. Make it hover within 6" of deredeo and chaos Lord for a 5+ invuln and rerolls of 1.
- Havocs. They aren't as good as rapiers, but they're a cheaper source of anti tank, and you don't wanna waste rapier points on laser destroyers unless you have very tough enemy armour. Point for point against most multi wound stuff, you're gunna be doing more damage with more lascannons than fewer destroyers as you'll have a greater chance to hit and s12 wounds t7 and above the same as s9 until you hit t9, and most things are t8 and under. Although you don't have the potential for 18 wounds in a single shot with lascannons.
- Poxwalkers. They don't shoot, but you'll want the bubble wrap and obj holding ability if you want to win with a gunline. Think about taking 60+.
- Chaos Lord. An auto-include for most chaos shooty stuff. You have so many shots being fired that you'll really benefit from his rerolls of 1.
- Sorcerer. He could buff a unit of rapiers so they're hitting on 2's and then rerolling ones with the Lord. So, statistically, would only miss one of the 36 shots. I'd say he's a bit situational, and I'd probably prefer to save the points for more dakka or more poxwalkers.

These are the prime chaos shooting units, and with a bit of support (chaos Lord and bubble wrap for denying charges and area for enemy deepstrikes), they can really devastate your opponent. Let me know if you're interested in mixing with renegades and I'll give a breakdown of their best stuff too.

This post is excellent with loads of really good advice.

On the Dreadnought choices, the Dedereo has better accuracy and a lot more wounds, but ends up costing many more points for the same damage output. The Decimator can also be a Daemon of Tzeentch to benefit from the Changeling, and naturally regenerates wounds rather than only gaining them through combat. Both really nice choices though, so perhaps pick based off which models you prefer/would like to convert.
The Poxwalkers could be subbed for Horrors of some description. While not immune to morale, they are very cheap and the Changeling makes them very durable (along with buffing Decimators if you're also taking those).
Finally, on the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer, you can combine both of their effects into a Daemon Prince, and get a cheap and powerful counter-assault unit into the bargain as well.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd definitely like to hear the run down on the R&H stuff if you've got the time.

Asura Varuna wrote:
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd definitely like to hear the run down on the R&H stuff if you've got the time.

Certainly!

The main issue you'll have with the renegade stuff compared to the chaos marines is, of course, accuracy. You'll be hitting on 4's, rather than 3's rerolling ones, with no way (that I know of) to improve that seeing as renegades still don't have orders and don't even have a master of ordnance anymore. So, if you choose to take some renegade stuff, it'll be because it's cheap as hell and can add a lot of durability, and not because it's gunna deal equal damage to your rapiers. If I haven't included any units in the list below, then it's because I don't think they're worth it.

- Wyverns. Not as good in this edition as they now have to roll to hit (as opposed to spitting out a tonne of blasts in the last edition that would average more hits than your 4+ bs). Additionally, 4d6 shots is incredibly unreliable, averaging at 12 shots, 6 of which hit. Which leaves you with 6 rerollable wounds at s4. The only reason I'd take these over quad rapiers is if I'm in need of the armour. 3 wyverns (deployed as a single unit to help secure first turn, which can then spread out and each one function individually) gives you 33 T6 wounds for 279 pts. That's 12d6 s4 shots that reroll to wound as well as 9 s5 heavy bolter shots. Not an auto include like last edition, but they can have a place in a gunline.
- Hellhounds. These standout above the others as you don't need to worry about hitting, which mitigates renegade inaccuracy. 110 points with a heavy flamer on the hull, and you have a unit that can do considerable damage, and it's overwatch can melt a unit before it attacks. T7 and 11 wounds make it decently meaty. I'd prefer to run three of these than three wyverns, provided that you have some other close range assault units in your army to take the pressure off of them(I like to go with 2x15 raptors for alpha strikes and a bunch of bikers as a gunline supported by an alpha strike can be a brutal combo).
- Scout sentinels. Another unit that pairs well with an alpha strike due to their scout move. Equip them with heavy flamers (auto hits) and take units of 3. For 156 points you have 18 T5 wounds that can get in your opponents face fast to back up your deep strikers. They won't damage as much as rapiers, but they have more speed and utility, so I believe them to have a place. 3d6 auto hitting s5 shots is nothing to sniff at. Just be careful to position them correctly to avoid getting charged.
- Mutant rabble. Budget poxwalkers. If you have some spare points and can't afford ten more poxwalkers, then these guys have you covered. 40 points gives you ten more wounds to your bubble wrap and objective holding. Keep them near the deredeo for 5+ invuln (only one has to be in range to give the unit the bonus).
- Psyker Coven. If you're playing power level, these guys are oddly good. 3 power gets you 15 wounds on a unit that can smite, and hold objectives. They can also use 3d6 when casting smite with the minor issue of d3 mortal wounds (not major on a unit so disposable). 3d6 will increase your chance of getting the all-important 10+ to inflict d6 mortal wounds. (Still a far cry from a decimator with 2 soulburners). If you're playing points, these guys cost 100 and just aren't worth it.

That's pretty much it for the renegades. Everything else is just too random (almost every ex-blast weapon), or done far better by chaos marines. Renegades have been hit quite hard in this edition, gone are the days where you'd have quad mortar spam with twin linked laser rapiers to ruin vehicles. I wish they had access to a broader range of units - the hades breaching drill would open up some fantastic alpha strikes for renegades, in conjunction with raptors.

The Decimator can also be a Daemon of Tzeentch

Can he? It say's he's a daemon in his keywords, but then in the faction keywords it says "Mark of Chaos", so you could choose what mark he has. E.g mark of tzeentch, but that wouldn't make him a daemon of tzeentch to benefit from the changelings buff. I may be wrong though

Marauder sniper teams look good. At 34 points for 2 sniper rifles and 3 ablative wounds they're cheap. With their +1 to cover saves and -1 to hit buff they can be a pain to shift out of good positions. And being immune to morale 5/6's of the time is pretty good. You can always re-roll that occasional 1 if you need them to stick around. You can pick up 4 squads of these for the price of a good havoc squad. Chaos suffers from having few options to snipe out buffing characters but the Marauder sniper team can sole that for you cheaply.

The Deredeo looks like the go-to walker if you want to castle up your gunline (that 5++ bubble will be very helpful) or you need to deal with strong flyers. Not sure on the Decimator as a rifle dread. You're losing all that awesome speed it has if you stand in a gunline. It's probably the fastest dreadnought type out there isn't it?

An interesting point about Rapier Laser Destoyers. In the R&H (and AM) lists the weapon cost is 0 and included in the price of the unit (they only have the laser version to pick from). In the chaos index the weapon costs 10 less than the entire unit in the AM book, but you pay a bit on top for the unit too, so they come out more expensive. However, if you can field your laser destroyers on vehicles instead, such as a Spartan then you're essentially getting that weapon at a discount. So if you have need of a good tank that can also take laser destroyers, then you will save a few points over buying them on a Rapier platform. Thinks it's a saving of like 20pts per gun. It's a weird quirk of how points costs vary across the factions (and based on whether or not they can be taken on multiple units or are unique to one platform).

Demantiae wrote:
Marauder sniper teams look good. At 34 points for 2 sniper rifles and 3 ablative wounds they're cheap. With their +1 to cover saves and -1 to hit buff they can be a pain to shift out of good positions. And being immune to morale 5/6's of the time is pretty good. You can always re-roll that occasional 1 if you need them to stick around. You can pick up 4 squads of these for the price of a good havoc squad. Chaos suffers from having few options to snipe out buffing characters but the Marauder sniper team can sole that for you cheaply.

That's a good point. I only gave them a cursory glance when reading through. I'll have to revisit them now.

Demantiae wrote:
Not sure on the Decimator as a rifle dread. You're losing all that awesome speed it has if you stand in a gunline. It's probably the fastest dreadnought type out there isn't it?

It has a 10" move, whilst the contemptor moves 9 and the leviathan moves 8 so it's not substantial enough for me. Additionally, only the decimator and deredeo have the option of two ranged weapons, meaning that if you want rifle dreads you'll be wanting a decimator or two and leaving the melee up to the ones that can't shoot as well.

Demantiae wrote:
An interesting point about Rapier Laser Destoyers. In the R&H (and AM) lists the weapon cost is 0 and included in the price of the unit (they only have the laser version to pick from). In the chaos index the weapon costs 10 less than the entire unit in the AM book, but you pay a bit on top for the unit too, so they come out more expensive. However, if you can field your laser destroyers on vehicles instead, such as a Spartan then you're essentially getting that weapon at a discount. So if you have need of a good tank that can also take laser destroyers, then you will save a few points over buying them on a Rapier platform. Thinks it's a saving of like 20pts per gun. It's a weird quirk of how points costs vary across the factions (and based on whether or not they can be taken on multiple units or are unique to one platform).

The problem with renegade rapiers is the 4+ to hit. You're paying 78 pts for a shot that only hits 50% of the time. And, for the spartan, you'd be better off sticking with it's 8 lascannon shots, than going down to 2 laser destroyers. The things that are over T9 will probably (or always?) have the titanic keyword, so you'll be better off using weapons that give buffs when attacking them e.g volcano cannons rerolling wounds.

Lancelot185 wrote:

The Decimator can also be a Daemon of Tzeentch

Can he? It say's he's a daemon in his keywords, but then in the faction keywords it says "Mark of Chaos", so you could choose what mark he has. E.g mark of tzeentch, but that wouldn't make him a daemon of tzeentch to benefit from the changelings buff. I may be wrong though

Mark of Tzeentch is never actually a keyword. "Mark of Chaos" just becomes the keyword of the relevant god. eg Khorne/Tzeentch. Last sentence, second paragraph of "Marks of Chaos" on page 10 Chaos Index.

That is true. However, when you look at Daemon units they all have Daemon in the faction keywords, whereas the decimator does not because he belongs to the heretic astartes, not the daemon faction. Having 'Tzeentch' in your faction keywords doesn't make you a daemon of Tzeentch unless you also have 'daemon' afterwards, in the same way that warp talons and possessed can't benefit from the buffs from the daemon faction.

They go out of their way in the rulebook to say that faction keywords are just keywords. They're not special in that sense.
So a daemon model having the daemon faction keyword and the daemon keyword is redundant. What makes it different is that a daemon keyword doesn't count as a faction for your detachments where as faction keyword daemon does, but a unit with daemon and tzeentch keywords is functionally a daemon of tzeentch regardless of which section the keywords are listed in. So a having the mark keyword for tzeentch in the faction and daemon in the keywords section is the same as both being in faction keyowrds for rules that ask for either keyword. Unless they specifically ask for a faction keyword which I don't think any do?

Oh, sweet. That should open up some nice combos.

Lancelot185 wrote:
Oh, sweet. That should open up some nice combos.

It does

Thanks for the advice, guys. I've calculated a tentative list for a 2000 points <CHAOS> army, and I've taken all your advice to account.

Battalion Detachement

Daemon Prince of tzeentch + talons + warp bolter - 155

changeling - 100

3x 10 pink horrers - 300

2x decimators -w/ siege claw, butcher cannon, hellflamer - 330

5 warp talons w/ twin lightning claws - 140

Spearhead Detachment

hellwright on Abeyant w/ infernal axe, void cutters, soul burner pistol, warpfire lance - 169

3 hellfire rapier batteries w/ CSM crew w/ laser destroyer - 318

2x hellforged Deredeo w/ butcher cannon array + twin heavy bolter + greater havoc launcer - 472

I've clocked in at 1984 points, and I was able to get 7 command points. What do you guys think? I might have to change this army from a CSM army to a Dark Mechanicus army lol. I knows it's lacking on models, but I hope that the amount of dakka was enough to wipe whole squads out. Plus, I heard that the army with the fewest models attacks first, and from what I've seen, most gaming tables are about 3x3 feet.

I would say that a 3x3 table is very small for a 2K battle, that sort of battle needs at least twice if not three times the area.

The handy thing about Pink Horrors is your enemy can't easily shoot them off an objective as they can multiply, but you need to have Reinforcement Points set aside to 'buy' the Blue and Brimstone Horrors during a game. If you're taking three units then I'd seriously consider getting a box of the little 'uns and setting aside 70pts.

I'm having excellent results with Havocs. An Autocannon squad is performing very well for me, and a Plasma squad jumping out of a Rhino or Dreadclaw with a Chaos Lord can put out some fearsome close-range hurt.

Good call with the Warp Talons, a mobile infantry-shredding counter-charge unit will be helpful for an army with a lot of big stuff.

Lancelot185 wrote:
That is true. However, when you look at Daemon units they all have Daemon in the faction keywords, whereas the decimator does not because he belongs to the heretic astartes, not the daemon faction. Having 'Tzeentch' in your faction keywords doesn't make you a daemon of Tzeentch unless you also have 'daemon' afterwards, in the same way that warp talons and possessed can't benefit from the buffs from the daemon faction.

I have posed this question on YMDC.
If you still disagree, please post your rules argument so we can discuss

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730761.page#9459699