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That would be different, as 16% of the time you don't need to use that CP.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I wouldn't read too much into this, he was one relic mission away from not being in the winners circle. Plus they weren't using the ITC guidelines for determining first turn, so his flyer spam lists was almost always going first, and that much firepower made for a helluva alpha strike. It basically shows exactly why ITC made the decision they did with both going first and kill points.

Odds of going first in ITC placement rules, assuming reroll on a tie result: ~68%. If ITC lets you attempt a single seize, that drops to roughly 57%.

Odds of going first in RAW placement rules, assuming opponent attempt to seize & uses CP reroll: ~69%



So effectively 6/10 vs 7/10 is the difference between ITC and RAW. ITC's rule is totally superfluous and overblown.

So 57% vs. 70%, the chance of going first in all of 4 games is 10% vs 24%, so it's a much larger difference than you give it credit for. Also the CP for reroll seize is still debatable as RAW or RAI. If it is RAW they might as well have a rule that says "Person who placed the last unit down loses a command point and can attempt to seize twice" because it's effectively just a straight up CP tax.

I count 21 out of 31 valid cases (5 are re rolled draws) winning for the person with +1, and 10 losing, multiplied by 5/6 and 1/6 respectively to reflect the chances of seizing and summed yields about 62% for me. Significantly closer to the core 69.5%.

Given a single seize attempt +1 to going first gives you a 61% chance of getting first turn (55.3% of winning roll and not getting seized, 5.6% chance of losing the roll and seizing).

If double seize is allowed that drops to 56%

If auto go first and only a single seize, you have an 83% chance of going first.

If you allow the re-roll you have a 69% chance of going first.

So since they are going no-reroll on seize, the difference between 61% chance to go first and 83% chance is pretty big.

That Harlequin list goes against a lot of the weapon choice discussion we've had on here. Cool.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We saw a pure flyer spam list -
Just wait until you see a conscript spam list.

And when we see it, it won't be nearly as big a deal as that flyer spam! I mean, they honestly should cost MORE. At least 100 points more per model. Also, fliers should be sevearly limited to 2 total per army regardless of what type of battalions or what not are taken.

Yes yes, we all understood how hard you are defending that conscripts should remain the exact way they are.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We saw a pure flyer spam list -
Just wait until you see a conscript spam list.

And when we see it, it won't be nearly as big a deal as that flyer spam! I mean, they honestly should cost MORE. At least 100 points more per model. Also, fliers should be sevearly limited to 2 total per army regardless of what type of battalions or what not are taken.

Yes yes, we all understood how hard you are defending that conscripts should remain the exact way they are.

So, you're saying flyer spam is ok while conscripts aren't? That's considered salt? Complaining about a unit that hasn't even reached the top listing in the few tournaments yet can also just as equally be considered salty, my friend. So please, stay that way

I will be forever perplexed at how many people on dakka take the top 3 of a single event and treat it as gospel.

Matchup gods are a thing. I had a dual land-raider BA list (in 7th!!!???) win me a painted Knight at a 2 day GT when more than half the lists near me in the end rankings (that I never played against) would've walked right over me.

Dice are a thing. Recent RTT, Lost a full health knight to 4 combi-melta overwatch shots NOT in melta range straight through his 3++ for being in baronial court when charging the chaos sorcerer formation. Game loss pretty much on the spot.

Players are a thing. Another RTT I was really tired and reported a draw with another guy. Literally a day later, after some sleep, I realized I should have won because of objective secured on a contested objective.

All this taken into account, the strongest list at the event could've been all the way down in 10th, and you'll never hear about it.

Any way to view the other lists in the tournament? Really interested to see all the lists these guys were competing against.

So, you're saying flyer spam is ok while conscripts aren't? That's considered salt? Complaining about a unit that hasn't even reached the top listing in the few tournaments yet can also just as equally be considered salty, my friend. So please, stay that way

One tournament. And you are trying to put words in my mouth with that first statement. It's more along the lines that you've been constantly trying to defend the unit in the exact same way with as much hyperbole as you could against anything else to constant detriment. Now that is indeed salt

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So, you're saying flyer spam is ok while conscripts aren't? That's considered salt? Complaining about a unit that hasn't even reached the top listing in the few tournaments yet can also just as equally be considered salty, my friend. So please, stay that way

One tournament. And you are trying to put words in my mouth with that first statement. It's more along the lines that you've been constantly trying to defend the unit in the exact same way with as much hyperbole as you could against anything else to constant detriment. Now that is indeed salt

Let's not ignore the salt coming from you, and other, inc ountless threads as well assuming that a unit we haven't truly gotten to see in the competitive setting already needs merging simply due to mathhammwr, which often proves to be wrong. That is indeed, salt

I played in the Boise GT and against Tim's winning Blood Angel list. He is a good player and the list is difficult. I brought a Black Templar list

In the game against Tim's fliers, it was really close, and was leaning in my favor had the game gone on. His list struggled with the T8 land raider. I shot down 3 of the ravens, but naturally I pulled him in the kill point mission. Had the GT implemented the kill points based on power levels, I would have actually been ahead. Those ravens shoot a lot and I do not think conscript spam would handle it well.

Ah, since some others were interested in other lists. I'll try and remember the general idea of some. There was a magnus, maulerfiend, brass scorpion list. A dark angel Mastadon and dark shroud list. 3 Knights 2 stormraven list. Two different Guilliman razorback lists, Thomas's and a sternguard based list. riptide and yvarna based list. One guard player who had some punisher leman russes and conscripts/HWT. A tyranid army using Swarmlord and genestealer combo with exocrines. Horde necrons as well as a necron player with tesseract vault and dooms day arcs. A khorne bezerker army. Just a rough idea. It was wild. Lists were all over the place.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I played in the Boise GT and against Tim's winning Blood Angel list. He is a good player and the list is difficult. I brought a Black Templar list

In the game against Tim's fliers, it was really close, and was leaning in my favor had the game gone on. His list struggled with the T8 land raider. I shot down 3 of the ravens, but naturally I pulled him in the kill point mission. Had the GT implemented the kill points based on power levels, I would have actually been ahead. Those ravens shoot a lot and I do not think conscript spam would handle it well.

What kind of other lists did you play against? I'm curious what other people were bringing.

Did you play either of the Tau players? I noticed there were only two and they scored fairly low.

Both Tau got utterly trashed. Nothing surprising there. I wish I could see their list. I bet it was heavy on big suits.

Ah I updated my post with some types of armies. I remember two Tau players. One had 5 big suits, Yvarna and riptides I believe. The other did mass crisis suits and farsight. Sadly I didn't get to play them.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Ah I updated my post with some types of armies. I remember two Tau players. One had 5 big suits, Yvarna and riptides I believe. The other did mass crisis suits and farsight.

Bingo. The big suit one was bound to fail. The mass crisis suit one is sad to hear since one player I know has high hopes for them. Do you have a list breakdown of the crisis suit list and their specific load outs?

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I played in the Boise GT and against Tim's winning Blood Angel list. He is a good player and the list is difficult. I brought a Black Templar list

In the game against Tim's fliers, it was really close, and was leaning in my favor had the game gone on. His list struggled with the T8 land raider. I shot down 3 of the ravens, but naturally I pulled him in the kill point mission. Had the GT implemented the kill points based on power levels, I would have actually been ahead. Those ravens shoot a lot and I do not think conscript spam would handle it well.

Ah, since some others were interested in other lists. I'll try and remember the general idea of some. There was a magnus, maulerfiend, brass scorpion list. A dark angel Mastadon and dark shroud list. 3 Knights 2 stormraven list. Two different Guilliman razorback lists, Thomas's and a sternguard based list. riptide and yvarna based list. One guard player who had some punisher leman russes and conscripts/HWT. A tyranid army using Swarmlord and genestealer combo with exocrines. Horde necrons as well as a necron player with tesseract vault and dooms day arcs. A khorne bezerker army. Just a rough idea. It was wild. Lists were all over the place.

I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

Crisis suit list - Vanguard Detatchment
Commander - 2 missle pods, ATS shield Generator
Commander - identical as above

Four 5 man suit squads - 4x cyclic ion blaster, 1x missile pod, 5x ATS
Ghost keel - cyclic ion raker, twin burst cannons, ATS, target lock 2x stealth drones

What would you call it then, Gunzhard?
Semantics!

Also very interesting top 3, very interested in seeing the meta shifting around early on.

 Gunzhard wrote:


I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

His captain and blood angel squad were Blood Angels, but I get what you are saying.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I played in the Boise GT and against Tim's winning Blood Angel list. He is a good player and the list is difficult. I brought a Black Templar list

In the game against Tim's fliers, it was really close, and was leaning in my favor had the game gone on. His list struggled with the T8 land raider. I shot down 3 of the ravens, but naturally I pulled him in the kill point mission. Had the GT implemented the kill points based on power levels, I would have actually been ahead. Those ravens shoot a lot and I do not think conscript spam would handle it well.

Ah, since some others were interested in other lists. I'll try and remember the general idea of some. There was a magnus, maulerfiend, brass scorpion list. A dark angel Mastadon and dark shroud list. 3 Knights 2 stormraven list. Two different Guilliman razorback lists, Thomas's and a sternguard based list. riptide and yvarna based list. One guard player who had some punisher leman russes and conscripts/HWT. A tyranid army using Swarmlord and genestealer combo with exocrines. Horde necrons as well as a necron player with tesseract vault and dooms day arcs. A khorne bezerker army. Just a rough idea. It was wild. Lists were all over the place.

I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

Welcome to 40k. Where one of the most notable "Ork" lists of last edition was Mogrok's Bossboyz granting Seize the Initiative rerolls to a Fateweaver Flying Circus. Did people seriously think hitting a few problem units with a nerfbat would actually balance the game?

These revelations are only confirming what I was afraid of about the Tau. I hope some of the other theorised Tau list types show up and do a lot better. Troop heavy and vehicle heavy are the next possible types proposed with any sort of viability to them. If these lists don't make a dent at all then the Tau are effectively dead until buffed since that is all that is left to try.

Of the two Tau players I assume the mass crisis spam was the higher one?

Negative, Big suit Tau went 2-3, crisis suit Tau went 1-4.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Negative, Big suit Tau went 2-3, crisis suit Tau went 1-4.

Interesting we have a Tau player on ATT absolutely swearing he was crushing 3 victories and placing second best at a local with a heavy crisis list. Granted he had a different variation of the list and it is not a complete crisis suit list. It incorporated stealth suits, marker drones, ethereal, and one other thing I am forgetting. His list needs a lot of finesse because of its wide array of load outs in the crisis each one is designed to do a specific job.

Did any of them bring drones in their armies? Lot's of them?

 Bonachinonin wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

His captain and blood angel squad were Blood Angels, but I get what you are saying.

Well kinda, BA share captains and tacticals from the standard astartes list. He didn't take anything from the actual BA section of the Index. Yeah it is just semantics, doesn't mean I have to like it.

 Gamgee wrote:
Interesting we have a Tau player on ATT absolutely swearing he was crushing 3 victories and placing second best at a local with a heavy crisis list. Granted he had a different variation of the list and it is not a complete crisis suit list. It incorporated stealth suits, marker drones, ethereal, and one other thing I am forgetting. His list needs a lot of finesse because of its wide array of load outs in the crisis each one is designed to do a specific job.

Did any of them bring drones in their armies? Lot's of them?

Other than the Ghost Keel drones, nope. You might be able to look up the tournament on the Best Coast Pairings app.

 Bonachinonin wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Interesting we have a Tau player on ATT absolutely swearing he was crushing 3 victories and placing second best at a local with a heavy crisis list. Granted he had a different variation of the list and it is not a complete crisis suit list. It incorporated stealth suits, marker drones, ethereal, and one other thing I am forgetting. His list needs a lot of finesse because of its wide array of load outs in the crisis each one is designed to do a specific job.

Did any of them bring drones in their armies? Lot's of them?

Other than the Ghost Keel drones, nope. You might be able to look up the tournament on the Best Coast Pairings app.

I do but can never see anyone lists for some reason. Just the match info. Am I supposed to be doing something? Also no drones yeah no wonder they didn't do so great. Without drones on suits these lists are downright terrible. These lists are not great representations of Tau in 8th. Gun drones are the most point efficient way to get str 5 damage and in general they are a fantastic force multiplyer for suits and they act as ablative wounds. 2 gun drones put out twice the firepower of a burst cannon and cost 4 points less.

Looking at all the results it seems that most matches ended extremely one sided. There are huge amounts of 19-1 points victories. Many players have results like 19/1/19...
Just look at the second place harlequin player: 19/19/19/19/1

What it shows is that luck of the draw is much more important than anything else. Facing a bad matchup? 1 point. You counter your enemy? Gratz to a 19 point victory.
(I know it's not _that_ easy...)

Interesting that you say that, as I achieved 2 minor victories and 2 minor losses. Won and lost by a couple of points.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


I have no issue with his list, nor do I question his skill, my only issue is that he calls it "Blood Angels" with literally not 1 unit from the BA section of the Index.

His captain and blood angel squad were Blood Angels, but I get what you are saying.

Well kinda, BA share captains and tacticals from the standard astartes list. He didn't take anything from the actual BA section of the Index. Yeah it is just semantics, doesn't mean I have to like it.

Heavy Flamer in TAC squad.

And not all space marines have access to all of those fliers he used. For instance, Space Wolves & Grey Knights.

As it stands right now, you have basically 5 factions of Space Marines: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights, and Dark Angels. The other aedeptus astartes aren't worth playing, you have severely limited HQ choices. So, yeah, most of the list could have been Ultras, but not all of it. Curious what your point is anyway...

What about Dark Angels?!