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I play Space Wolves. I have played Tau once and Grey Knights twice.

Tau vs Space Wolves - Draw (However I was likely going to lose so lose to Space Wolves)

Grey Knights Vs Space Wolves - Win for SW

Grey Knights vs Space Wolves - win for SW

Time for another W/L ratio, this time of any army with more than 40 games :

 mrhappyface wrote:

1) Astra Militarium - 1.889
2) Space Wolves - 1.643
3) Dark Eldar - 1.471
4) Eldar - 1.192
5) Tyranids - 1.061
6) Necrons - 1
7) Space Marines - 0.743
8) Chaos Space Marines - 0.714
9) Orks - 0.566
10) Tau - 0.429

Could do with people taking this weekend to try out the less popular armies - this is hardly an accurate comparison without those results.

Seeing orks do so poorly makes me sad :(
I'm going to try to play a few games in this weekend to try and boost their W/L ratio up.

I'll do a new round of proper stats on Monday. Might break out a different army for Sundays game.

Orks vs Dark eldar, Ork loss
Orks vs Grey knights, Ork loss

edited for spelling

> Ork Loss
> Liek if you cri erytim

Srsly though, ouch. What's making them so bad this edition?

 Selym wrote:
> Ork Loss
> Liek if you cri erytim

Srsly though, ouch. What's making them so bad this edition?

Cause orks don't work in non-maelstorm. So, half the games are out of the window allready. Oh, and you do need very specific lists and combinations to be effective.

I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Well, from my experience, Ork players I have played against haven't made the most tactically sound decisions. Yes Boyz hit like a trukk but I've always been able to avoid them and/or lure them into a trap.

Not trying to say anything about the Ork player community (saying more about my local Ork players), just reporting my findings.

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

decent - not op. Boyz chop better but the durability has gone down. And they no longer work with transports simply because transports are so expensive. At the same time boyz are a bit too slow to deal with shooty opponents and don't deal enough damage to kill tough stuff. Even rhinos are problematic. And at the same time it's not a good idea to mix your forces up cause boyz are mostly mellee oriented and they need redundancy to work.
So, best ork lists are a ton of boyz, stormboyz, buff characters and probably some tankbustas on the flanks hiding in trukks. But if there's not enough large los blocking terrain than simply more boyz.
And than you have decent odds at winning maelstorm on points. All the boyz still die but the first 3 turns should be enough to go ahead on vp.

 Selym wrote:
> Ork Loss
> Liek if you cri erytim

Srsly though, ouch. What's making them so bad this edition?

The BS 5+ doesn't seem to be doing them any favours.

8th ed. has many -1 to hit modifiers - and the competitive meta is fielding units with those modifiers in ever higher numbers. For Orks, that takes it from a 5+ to a 6+ (a 50% drop in effectiveness), whereas Marines going from 3+ to 4+ isn't as dramatic a change.

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Most people aren't running Things like
Weird Boy
Weird boy
3 x 30 Boyz

zagstruk
3 x 30 Storm Boyz

Warboss on bike
Banner Nob
Mad dok
Tank bustas
Trukk

It is effective, but I'm not sure it seems like a lot of fun.

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

As it is now, most (75% ?) of the ork units are situational or just crap, almost the only way to play them now is spamming ork boyz and buffing them. The situation will only get worse since people are learning how to counter the only ork build that works, another edition of being at the bottom.

Most people aren't running Things like
Weird Boy
Weird boy
3 x 30 Boyz

zagstruk
3 x 30 Storm Boyz

Warboss on bike
Banner Nob
Mad dok
Tank bustas
Trukk

It is effective, but I'm not sure it seems like a lot of fun.

I played against something similar to that list last night. He surrendered halfway through my turn 2 shooting. MT/IG vs. Orks: MT/IG win.

i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Well, from my experience, Ork players I have played against haven't made the most tactically sound decisions. Yes Boyz hit like a trukk but I've always been able to avoid them and/or lure them into a trap.

Not trying to say anything about the Ork player community (saying more about my local Ork players), just reporting my findings.

Yeah, we have one ork player in our area... and to say he's not the most tactically sound person would be giving him praise.

Had another game yesterday, Eldar V Death Guard. Ended up being a draw though, and it seems those aren't being tracked.

 djones520 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Well, from my experience, Ork players I have played against haven't made the most tactically sound decisions. Yes Boyz hit like a trukk but I've always been able to avoid them and/or lure them into a trap.

Not trying to say anything about the Ork player community (saying more about my local Ork players), just reporting my findings.

Yeah, we have one ork player in our area... and to say he's not the most tactically sound person would be giving him praise.

Had another game yesterday, Eldar V Death Guard. Ended up being a draw though, and it seems those aren't being tracked.

So Ork players are bad and AM players are good. Is that it?

 jhnbrg wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Well, from my experience, Ork players I have played against haven't made the most tactically sound decisions. Yes Boyz hit like a trukk but I've always been able to avoid them and/or lure them into a trap.

Not trying to say anything about the Ork player community (saying more about my local Ork players), just reporting my findings.

Yeah, we have one ork player in our area... and to say he's not the most tactically sound person would be giving him praise.

Had another game yesterday, Eldar V Death Guard. Ended up being a draw though, and it seems those aren't being tracked.

So Ork players are bad and AM players are good. Is that it?

*shrugs* Don't know. Just stating my anecdotal evidence. We have one ork player in the area, he's not very good. I've played against one AM army so far, stomped it.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I really don't get this, on paper boyz are the most OP unit in the game. I should really follow some battle reports to understand what is going on.

Well, from my experience, Ork players I have played against haven't made the most tactically sound decisions. Yes Boyz hit like a trukk but I've always been able to avoid them and/or lure them into a trap.

Not trying to say anything about the Ork player community (saying more about my local Ork players), just reporting my findings.

Yeah, we have one ork player in our area... and to say he's not the most tactically sound person would be giving him praise.

Had another game yesterday, Eldar V Death Guard. Ended up being a draw though, and it seems those aren't being tracked.

So Ork players are bad and AM players are good. Is that it?

Not just that but in my experience AM players have been far more tactical and generally more intelligent people. To put into context, the two people I play against the most are an AM player, who is currently studying Nuclear Engineering at a rather good university, and an Ork player, who made it into university but not to the level that the Guard player is at. I've seen this reflected a lot when I meet Ork or Guard players, maybe it's that AM attracts the more tactical, regimented intellectuals whilst Orks attract a more outgoing, 'lad' kind of character. Not all AM/Ork players I've met fall into these categories but enough to make me think there might be a correlation.

 Gamgee wrote:
Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

Haha "finally" as if these rules have been out forever. Where were your cries when Taudar was at the top of every tournament? Were you screaming for a rebalance then?
Of course they should get some buffs if they turn out to be really bad, but the way you make it sound is like they've been like this for years.

 Purifier wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

Haha "finally" as if these rules have been out forever. Where were your cries when Taudar was at the top of every tournament? Were you screaming for a rebalance then?
Of course they should get some buffs if they turn out to be really bad, but the way you make it sound is like they've been like this for years.

I was actually. You can check my post history. I was wanting Tau tonned own to equal levels as early in my history as just before 8th but far far before then when 7th was in full swing. I was also acutely aware that the Tau would be over nerfed and gutted months ago and have been trying to tone down the amount of over nerfing done to the Tau way in advance, but the hate seems to have gotten to those at the top. Check my post history and anyone here will tell you that. I wanted all the other factions too weak to be buffed up as well and am happy for them but now that the shoe is on the other foot no one else seems to want to buff the obviously too weak Tau up. Funny how that works. I also seen all of this months ago. I even knew people wouldn't want to buff the Tau up after their faction got buffed so that everyone was equal. I do get so bored sometimes. Yet I must have patience.

Wubbalubbadubdub!

 Gamgee wrote:
no one else seems to want to buff the obviously too weak Tau up. Funny how that works.

 Purifier wrote:
Of course they should get some buffs if they turn out to be really bad

If you only read the parts of the forum that confirm your ideas, then your ideas will be confirmed. If you stop to actually look, you'll see that there is every side of the multi-faceted coin on here.

 Purifier wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
no one else seems to want to buff the obviously too weak Tau up. Funny how that works.

 Purifier wrote:
Of course they should get some buffs if they turn out to be really bad

If you only read the parts of the forum that confirm your ideas, then your ideas will be confirmed. If you stop to actually look, you'll see that there is every side to the coin on here.

Whew thanks I didn't even see that. I'm so used to rage I didn't think anyone would actually want to buff Tau. When your mind moves as fast as mine it sometimes feels like eons when people are still trying to catch up to what seems obvious to me.

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

Eldar got hit hard, real hard, we're still floating. Adapt and overcome.

I've got to wonder, how many of those losses are Monster lists. I know a ton of people just bought Tau Monster lists, and nothing else, so it's all they have to use. Yes, those are useless now. Might be time to go back to investing in mass fire warrior armies, or the like.

 djones520 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

Eldar got hit hard, real hard, we're still floating. Adapt and overcome.

I've got to wonder, how many of those losses are Monster lists. I know a ton of people just bought Tau Monster lists, and nothing else, so it's all they have to use. Yes, those are useless now. Might be time to go back to investing in mass fire warrior armies, or the like.

Did you not read the first post? Claiming that Eldar players are adapting and Tau players aren't is really insulting. It is also false. Eldar were hit hard, but that brought them down to the middle. Tau were never at eldar levels and now are basement. look at the numbers before you post.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

Eldar got hit hard, real hard, we're still floating. Adapt and overcome.

I've got to wonder, how many of those losses are Monster lists. I know a ton of people just bought Tau Monster lists, and nothing else, so it's all they have to use. Yes, those are useless now. Might be time to go back to investing in mass fire warrior armies, or the like.

Did you not read the first post? Claiming that Eldar players are adapting and Tau players aren't is really insulting. It is also false. Eldar were hit hard, but that brought them down to the middle. Tau were never at eldar levels and now are basement. look at the numbers before you post.

Exactly. Also the only really good 8th units we have are drones which take like... 2 hours tops (usually less) to paint decently with minimum of 3 colours and lists running our cheeiest 8th stuff are getting crushed in European tournaments. So no monster mash ect. That and commander spam like 6 guys and maybe a few dozen drones. Not a hard list to paint up fast.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

Eldar got hit hard, real hard, we're still floating. Adapt and overcome.

I've got to wonder, how many of those losses are Monster lists. I know a ton of people just bought Tau Monster lists, and nothing else, so it's all they have to use. Yes, those are useless now. Might be time to go back to investing in mass fire warrior armies, or the like.

Did you not read the first post? Claiming that Eldar players are adapting and Tau players aren't is really insulting. It is also false. Eldar were hit hard, but that brought them down to the middle. Tau were never at eldar levels and now are basement. look at the numbers before you post.

What I do know is that every Eldar player on this forum was screaming about how horrible the Eldar army was now, when things first dropped. What I do know is that of the Tau players in my area, the only ones who have habitually lost are those who ran riptide wings. The other tau players, who run other things, are doing just fine.

This edition is still brand new, and the meta is still shaking out of it. Every time a new edition/codex has dropped, everyone screams about how it all changed. Unless you're an Ork or Dark Eldar player (whose armies are just fundamentally flawed in this game), everyone has always found a way to stand it back up and make it work. This edition is no different. The only real insulting thing is just sitting here and having to sift through all of the people whining non-stop about how "weak" their army is.

 djones520 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
i see the Tau are still getting stomped. As of the second big pro player scene the same thing. If not worse. Tau player got stomped and tabled in 3 turns and was using a drone heavy list to support the other "good" units in our codex.

Can we finally start considering the Tau need to be rebalanced?

I agree. Tau needed the nerf bat, not the nerf nuke.

Eldar got hit hard, real hard, we're still floating. Adapt and overcome.

I've got to wonder, how many of those losses are Monster lists. I know a ton of people just bought Tau Monster lists, and nothing else, so it's all they have to use. Yes, those are useless now. Might be time to go back to investing in mass fire warrior armies, or the like.

Did you not read the first post? Claiming that Eldar players are adapting and Tau players aren't is really insulting. It is also false. Eldar were hit hard, but that brought them down to the middle. Tau were never at eldar levels and now are basement. look at the numbers before you post.

What I do know is that every Eldar player on this forum was screaming about how horrible the Eldar army was now, when things first dropped. What I do know is that of the Tau players in my area, the only ones who have habitually lost are those who ran riptide wings. The other tau players, who run other things, are doing just fine.

This edition is still brand new, and the meta is still shaking out of it. Every time a new edition/codex has dropped, everyone screams about how it all changed. Unless you're an Ork or Dark Eldar player (whose armies are just fundamentally flawed in this game), everyone has always found a way to stand it back up and make it work. This edition is no different. The only real insulting thing is just sitting here and having to sift through all of the people whining non-stop about how "weak" their army is.

Denier. Look at the numbers.

Well while orks seem to be not that great overall, some people are having a blast with them.

https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/2017/06/episode-24-in-future-orks-dont-suck-in.html

this fellow dakka member has gone like 13-0 with horde orks.