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2017/07/03 03:01:17
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
Like who?? I am looking at/through my e-book version of the Astartes index, and literally all the characters that have named/special weapons, those weapons are listed as 0 points.
His point is that some characters have a listed points value under the heading "(includes wargear), and some have a points value under the heading (Does not include wargear), but the points cost of their wargear is 0. I don't see any confusion there, myself - the rules are perfectly clear.
However, the premise that all the special characters in GW Indexes are listed including wargear and the ones in Forge World Indexes are not is false, as inspection of Index: Imperium 2 will show; Inquisitors Coteaz, Greyfax and Karamazov are all listed without wargear (although they're the only ones like that in that book).
The rule is quite simple; if a model is listed in the (Does not include wargear) table and has an item of wargear that's got a points value, then you pay that points value for the wargear. Doesn't matter if it comes with it as standard or if it's an option.
So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts).
If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably fething stupid.
Where are you seeing that the 'Points Per Model' column for Named Characters says "(Does not include wargear)"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 03:08:36
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2017/07/03 03:20:49
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
Like who?? I am looking at/through my e-book version of the Astartes index, and literally all the characters that have named/special weapons, those weapons are listed as 0 points.
His point is that some characters have a listed points value under the heading "(includes wargear), and some have a points value under the heading (Does not include wargear), but the points cost of their wargear is 0. I don't see any confusion there, myself - the rules are perfectly clear.
However, the premise that all the special characters in GW Indexes are listed including wargear and the ones in Forge World Indexes are not is false, as inspection of Index: Imperium 2 will show; Inquisitors Coteaz, Greyfax and Karamazov are all listed without wargear (although they're the only ones like that in that book).
The rule is quite simple; if a model is listed in the (Does not include wargear) table and has an item of wargear that's got a points value, then you pay that points value for the wargear. Doesn't matter if it comes with it as standard or if it's an option.
So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts).
If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably fething stupid.
Where are you seeing that the 'Points Per Model' column for Named Characters says "(Does not include wargear)"?
pg. 350 of the Digital Enhanced Edition. The new FAQ/errata didn't address it, and I'm hoping this just may be a typo in the *ahem* "Enhanced" digital version of the Index.
2017/07/03 04:00:00
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts).
If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably [MOD EDIT - Do NOT circumvent the expletive filter - Alpharius] stupid.
Look at his entry. His wargear section reads: He's armed with Dorn's Arrow, A power fist. . . blah blah blah.
If he had a special named powerfist, then it'd probably be 0 points. But, because its generic, why wouldn't you have to pay for a generic item?
Edit: looking at the points page, he is under the named character box, and the entry does read "Includes all wargear" so even though it's a generic power glove, he's still just the points listed in the book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 04:01:25
2017/07/03 04:29:30
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts).
If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably [MOD EDIT - Do NOT circumvent the expletive filter - Alpharius] stupid.
Look at his entry. His wargear section reads: He's armed with Dorn's Arrow, A power fist. . . blah blah blah.
If he had a special named powerfist, then it'd probably be 0 points. But, because its generic, why wouldn't you have to pay for a generic item?
Edit: looking at the points page, he is under the named character box, and the entry does read "Includes all wargear" so even though it's a generic power glove, he's still just the points listed in the book.
Thanks for clarifying. Now I'm just worried how many other typos/mistakes are in the (ironically named) Digital Enhanced Edition, as opposed to the physical copy...
2017/07/03 07:40:49
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Iron Mike wrote: So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts). If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably [MOD EDIT - Do NOT circumvent the expletive filter - Alpharius] stupid.
I don't know what book you have, but my book clearly lists him in the "Named Characters" section which states the PPM is "Including Wargear". http://prntscr.com/fqyqlo
The Enhanced Edition is riddled with errors, don't use it. Find a PDF of the normal Epub for personal use.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 07:41:53
2017/07/03 11:18:11
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section must be paid for in the same way as
a model’s weapons.
It would seem things just got a lot more awkward.
Going off this wording it would seen Autarchs DO have to pay for Forceshields. Even though they technically cannot even take them.
Abilities that are named the same as Wargear have to be paid for.
God help us with Psychic Hoods then..
As a Rune Priest can take them and it says "a model equipped with..." but for Libs it's just "This model..."
The exact same wording as Storm Shield for a Company Champion is "This model has.."
Really really bizarre FAQ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 11:22:43
2017/07/03 16:41:31
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section must be paid for in the same way as
a model’s weapons.
It would seem things just got a lot more awkward.
Going off this wording it would seen Autarchs DO have to pay for Forceshields. Even though they technically cannot even take them.
Abilities that are named the same as Wargear have to be paid for.
God help us with Psychic Hoods then..
As a Rune Priest can take them and it says "a model equipped with..." but for Libs it's just "This model..."
The exact same wording as Storm Shield for a Company Champion is "This model has.."
Really really bizarre FAQ...
At least in my store, the "items" in the abilities section do not get paid for. . . If you notice, the standard librarian is approximately the cost of a psychic hood more expensive than a Rune Priest. So for our store anyway, they are included in the costs, the same as the autarch mentioned above.
Viewing it this way, the points aren't that awkward at all. But, I guess that means we're just ignoring that particular FAQ question.
2017/07/03 16:54:48
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
My personal favourite is the Thunderfire Cannon, which come stock with the following pieces of kit:
Thunderfire Chassis
Techmarine gunner
Plasma Pistol
Flamer
Bolter
2 Servo Arms
Thunderfire Cannon
None of which are optional or have any alternatives. The gun is exactly the same every time.
Even better, the chassis, gunner and Cannon are never repeated anywhere else in the book.
But the total cost still comes out to a tally of 7 different factors for something that is totally immutable.
Even if it's just addition, it is frustrating and you can guarantee that someone is going to miscount, either willfully or accidentally.
The second criticism is that a weapon's value will vary with the model wielding it. Even in the simplest terms, a BS2+ gun is going to do more than a BS5+ gun, but that is not reflected. You cannot balance an overperforming model-gun combination without overcompensating some part of it and subsequently ruining everyone else using that gun, or every other iteration of that model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 16:55:28
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
2017/07/03 16:56:49
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Mozzamanx wrote: The second criticism is that a weapon's value will vary with the model wielding it. Even in the simplest terms, a BS2+ gun is going to do more than a BS5+ gun, but that is not reflected. You cannot balance an overperforming model-gun combination without overcompensating some part of it and subsequently ruining everyone else using that gun, or every other iteration of that model.
In this case they just make points costs different for certain units, like they already do for Thunder Hammers and all the tyranid upgrades.
