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 Genoside07 wrote:
I think they have learned their lesson...

They just announced the Plague Marine kit will have 7 miniatures in it. It will cost as much as other infantry boxes that have 10-12 miniatures in them, with far more options for posing.

They've learnt nothing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


They've learnt nothing.

I have though, I am buying the old metal ones on Ebay to supplement my current Death Guard

I don't even like the new models.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
I think they have learned their lesson...

They just announced the Plague Marine kit will have 7 miniatures in it. It will cost as much as other infantry boxes that have 10-12 miniatures in them, with far more options for posing.

They've learnt nothing.

Factually incorrect. If anything they've learned how willing their customers are.
And I'd say they've learned a lot of things positive for the customer, but that's separate.

No;the only thing that's happened is that they've changed their marketing methods. Currently it's been a blizzard of Primaris, blizzards don't last but they have sold a hell of a lot of them! But high sales don't last forever.

These start collecting boxes have caught my attention though,and what I think they are doing. I'd take a guess and say that they are using them to clear the stock rooms for their eventual discontinuation. That should be interesting when it happens,because already the Primaris suff is expensive,just imagine what the cost will be when you can only buy Primaris stuff?
I'll stick with my normal stuff,thank you!

Slipstream wrote:
No;the only thing that's happened is that they've changed their marketing methods. Currently it's been a blizzard of Primaris, blizzards don't last but they have sold a hell of a lot of them! But high sales don't last forever.

These start collecting boxes have caught my attention though,and what I think they are doing. I'd take a guess and say that they are using them to clear the stock rooms for their eventual discontinuation. That should be interesting when it happens,because already the Primaris suff is expensive,just imagine what the cost will be when you can only buy Primaris stuff?
I'll stick with my normal stuff,thank you!

Ah, so the start collecting boxes are just a ploy to shift stock until only primaris is avaliable. And that includes the 12/15 start collecting sets that aren't SM, SW or BA. And those three boxes don't even contain anywhere near the full range of minis. Ok. Sure, we'll go with that.
Get real man, come on.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slipstream wrote:
No;the only thing that's happened is that they've changed their marketing methods. Currently it's been a blizzard of Primaris, blizzards don't last but they have sold a hell of a lot of them! But high sales don't last forever.

These start collecting boxes have caught my attention though,and what I think they are doing. I'd take a guess and say that they are using them to clear the stock rooms for their eventual discontinuation. That should be interesting when it happens,because already the Primaris suff is expensive,just imagine what the cost will be when you can only buy Primaris stuff?
I'll stick with my normal stuff,thank you!

Ah, so the start collecting boxes are just a ploy to shift stock until only primaris is avaliable. And that includes the 12/15 start collecting sets that aren't SM, SW or BA. And those three boxes don't even contain anywhere near the full range of minis. Ok. Sure, we'll go with that.
Get real man, come on.

You can't spell GW without evil
If GW did it it must be evil, that's the whole point of them being GW isn't it?

I think they learned that a new coat of paint the is enough to get people to forgive you and come crawling back. Nothing they've done really shows me they have changed, but people have forgiven them with the community site and painting videos anyways.

Wayniac wrote:
I think they learned that a new coat of paint the is enough to get people to forgive you and come crawling back. Nothing they've done really shows me they have changed, but people have forgiven them with the community site and painting videos anyways.

So basically, you say that people who appreciate what GW is doing are generally incapable of walking and / or prefer crawling instead?
Does that mean most of them are zombies from zombicide S3 which have been partially shot down?

The only lesson GW plc appear to have learned is treating your customers with open contempt, negatively effects sales.

And the minimal amount of effort it takes to engage with customers on the inter-webs can improve your 'good will 'rating a bit.

If GW plc wanted to actually grow market share, and profit.
They should pick what their company actually is, and focus on a business plan accordingly.

GW could be a better minature company if it did not saddle itself with the burden of half hearted rules development, and stores to teach people how to play.
And just sold high quality minatures for display, online.

GW could be a better games company if it focused on addressing game play issues, and sold higher volume lower cost 'table top' minatures.

The current combination of comparative high price minatures and crappy rules, leaves them with much lower market share than they could have.

morgoth wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I think they learned that a new coat of paint the is enough to get people to forgive you and come crawling back. Nothing they've done really shows me they have changed, but people have forgiven them with the community site and painting videos anyways.

So basically, you say that people who appreciate what GW is doing are generally incapable of walking and / or prefer crawling instead?
Does that mean most of them are zombies from zombicide S3 which have been partially shot down?

Are you so bereft of intelligent argument you have to write stuff like this?

What I am getting from GW is that they have learned that they are a niche, luxury hobby that has a dedicated fan base who loves the game and the universe. Instead of exploiting that loyalty, they are getting back to their roots. I think in many cases they are stuck between a rock and a hard place in that they did a lot of stupid/questionable things for many years and that set a lot of precedents that they cant ignore(like the chapterhouse lawsuit). This limits their ability to do things like say "Hey we are going to release all of these options that we dont have models for". We have already seen how companies are exploiting them releasing images of their future products before they are launched(see the not-plague crawler that is already on the market). Secondly the allies matrix of the past means people built armies that were all over the place. It is very hard to turn that back and ATTEMPT to balance all the possible combinations. I think the way they are going forward is a nice compromise. Sure you can combine armies but you are going to be missing out on a lot of the benefits. Much better than the old formation system and much better than the old allies matrix.

They are also taking a fine tuning approach rather than a blunt hammering approach to balance. They are trying to straddle the line between having a significant number of people who prefer everything in print hardcopy versus those who want constant iterative changes. Just last week they updated all of the digital index's to reflect the FAQ changes amongst a few other things like points updates. Once again should they be doing this? Yes, however it was much appreciated since they have not done it in the past.

They are making it clear that the individuals who are running the public face really love the hobby, they are making it clear that they are listening and trying to meet the needs of their customers. They are making it clear from the products that they release that they have an idea of what people who are in their hobby want/need. I mean one look at the regimental standard will tell you how much things have changed back to what they used to be.

I mean the free paint app? Freaking AMAZING. I was at the store the other day trying to figureout what paints would work best and I just typed in two colors that were really similar to the colors I used already on my army and it showed me exactly what it would look like layered on top. It was perfect. It also lets me keep track of what I already own so no more cases of having three copies of the same paint and none of the 3-4 I need.

Could they have released an app that was solely for the purpose of helping with sales? Sure, they could have just released a app that was a checklist of paints you own and paints you dont. I would still use it then for free because it offers some value. Instead they released something that is what gamers actually want. I would have happily paid 5-10 bucks for the warhammer paint app. They released it for free.

Do they have a ways to go? Absolutely but I am very happy with the progress they are making and what they are trying to do with their IP. I refuse to let the desire for perfection get in the way of progress.

Lanrak wrote:
The only lesson GW plc appear to have learned is treating your customers with open contempt, negatively effects sales.

And the minimal amount of effort it takes to engage with customers on the inter-webs can improve your 'good will 'rating a bit.

If GW plc wanted to actually grow market share, and profit.
They should pick what their company actually is, and focus on a business plan accordingly.

GW could be a better minature company if it did not saddle itself with the burden of half hearted rules development, and stores to teach people how to play.
And just sold high quality minatures for display, online.

GW could be a better games company if it focused on addressing game play issues, and sold higher volume lower cost 'table top' minatures.

The current combination of comparative high price minatures and crappy rules, leaves them with much lower market share than they could have.

I am sure this has been said, but their profits are way up and shares in their company have gone up almost 300 percent in 1 year (505 to 1991). If you call that not growing their market share you have no idea what you are talking about

No, I'm afraid that would be you who doesn't understand the terminology. You can only grow your market share if your growth is higher than the overall growth of the market, and as we have no reliable metric to judge the overall size of the tabletop gaming market globally, let alone how much it is or isn't growing, we have no reliable means to assess GW's share of that market.

That they have grown as a company is indisputible, that their market share has grown is much, much less easy to argue.

Wayniac wrote:
I think they learned that a new coat of paint the is enough to get people to forgive you and come crawling back. Nothing they've done really shows me they have changed, but people have forgiven them with the community site and painting videos anyways.

Not just a new coat of paint.

Multiple, thin new coats of paint!

morgoth wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I think they learned that a new coat of paint the is enough to get people to forgive you and come crawling back. Nothing they've done really shows me they have changed, but people have forgiven them with the community site and painting videos anyways.

So basically, you say that people who appreciate what GW is doing are generally incapable of walking and / or prefer crawling instead?
Does that mean most of them are zombies from zombicide S3 which have been partially shot down?

What I am saying is that people are quick to forgive GW for figuring out that hey, treating your customers like clueless rubes is a bad idea, they should engage the community more. For me, I like the fact they've approached the community better, but I don't think it absolves everything else and certainly doesn't absolve the fact that prices are still high and there's still too little actual balance in their games. I don't necessarily begrudge people who think GW has "changed" I just feel they are falling prey seeing a fresh coat of paint and thinking that everything is great now.

Basically this:




Time will still tell if it turns out better or worse, but right now while I think they're doing SOME things better, they're still doing a lot of the same things. It's like, and i hate using domestic abuse analogies because I dealt with it in my marriage, being okay with the fact your spouse hits you once in a while because they still buy you nice things the other times.

@Ustrello.
Well if you do market share by demographics, GW plc are still leaving many customers out they could be selling to.

A) People who actually care about game play.And would like the rules to be focused on game play not short term sales boosts.

B)People who expect the rules written by GW , to be given the same level of attention as the artwork, and be professionally edited and proof read.

C)People who expect plastic table top minatures to be priced accordingly.(Rather than on a par with high quality resin and white metal display pieces. )

D) People who are aware of how much basic hobby tools and materials cost, and are not willing to pay the 'GW tax' for a 'GW logo'.

E)People who do not go to GW stores , yet have to pay extra for GW items to pay for the B&M stores.(Appx 55% of gross profit is spent on GW chain of B&M stores.)

Basically I would like GW plc to learn that,
Adding crappy rules to a minature range devalues the entire product range.Adding quality rules to a minature range adds value to the entire product range.

Not all of those apply to all people though. The hugely overpriced tools and materials are for those that want the convenience or "one shop" nature of them. They don't need everyone (or almost anyone) to touch their tools, sand, flocking etc.

Of the rest, some percentage of them will still buy anyway, due to the social factors. I know GW rules are crap and the figures are overpriced, but I can usually get a game of it in my local clubs so if I was getting back into gaming I'd probably get a smallish (cost optimized) GW army.

@Herzlos.
I was just giving examples of how GW plc could grow their market share if they wanted to .By appealing to potential customer they are not currently attracting.

Most new customers have not got a clue how much a minature 'should' cost.
But most know how much PVA glue and tape measures cost from the local hardware store.
'
This is where a majority of customers become aware that GW is charging a 'premium price' for the addition of a GW logo. And some think ''..well if they 'over charge' for these basic items, what else are they 'over charging' for...''And may investigate the internet for better value deals...


I was simply pointing out why others may not see value for money in the GW range of products.
And this could be addressed in an effective way, IF GW plc had a clear direction of perpose and had an appropriate business plan.

Here is a simple question,
Would GW plc sell more product to more people if the current retail prices were half what they are now?

Lanrak wrote:
@Herzlos.
I was just giving examples of how GW plc could grow their market share if they wanted to .By appealing to potential customer they are not currently attracting.

Most new customers have not got a clue how much a minature 'should' cost.
But most know how much PVA glue and tape measures cost from the local hardware store.
'
This is where a majority of customers become aware that GW is charging a 'premium price' for the addition of a GW logo. And some think ''..well if they 'over charge' for these basic items, what else are they 'over charging' for...''And may investigate the internet for better value deals...


I was simply pointing out why others may not see value for money in the GW range of products.
And this could be addressed in an effective way, IF GW plc had a clear direction of perpose and had an appropriate business plan.

Here is a simple question,
Would GW plc sell more product to more people if the current retail prices were half what they are now?

Not likely, as everyone in the “hobby” is already aware of GW. But for the sake of arguement, let’s say they do sell more product to more people. Do you realistically think that they’ll OVER DOUBLE their sales? Because they’d have to do that to break even with where they are now.

Exactly. Which is why I've seldom advocated for GW to cut prices in these sorts of discussions, price cuts are risky if they don't see a commensurate increase in sales volume, and there's no real way of gauging their impact ahead of time, making them a bad idea.

They could damn well slow down the increases a bit, but that's a separate issue.

Not a single GW hobby tools are worth buying (even paints) cause the prices are so ridiculously high.
Take for example this PVA glue https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/PVA-Glue , they charge 7.5 € for 120ml.
I can buy high quality PVA glue 500 ml for less 4 €. When I talk to people I advise against buying GW products
except minis and this kind of info spreads around a lot I would say. IMO lower prices would lead to better
sales.

You're making the assumption they want to increase sales.

They cut the price by half and double sales. What happens? They lose money as they're still paying the same for the wholesale, and buying twice as much as before for the same income. They cut the price by half and treble sales? They've made a tiny bit more profit than before, maybe, but increased their logistic costs and generally added to hassle for very little. So on and so forth.

It's priced at a predatory point to take a bite out of the unwary, ignorant and impulsive, and I'm sure GW are quite happy wth how it does that otherwise we'd have seen some sort of change. It's offered as a dubious "convenience," isn't part of GW's core line and I'm sure is a very low priority for them.

I'm not even mad about it, as you say, you can buy substantially more product for a lot less, anyone who pays GW prices only really has themselves to blame.

 Leth wrote:
I mean the free paint app? Freaking AMAZING. I was at the store the other day trying to figureout what paints would work best and I just typed in two colors that were really similar to the colors I used already on my army and it showed me exactly what it would look like layered on top. It was perfect. It also lets me keep track of what I already own so no more cases of having three copies of the same paint and none of the 3-4 I need.

Um... Could you tell me how to do that? I was actually initially disappointed by the app because it only had a limited (if, admittedly, fairly large) list of colour progression examples. I still love it for its colour matching functions, but if you can actually dynamically test out paint schemes that'd be amazing.

 Modock wrote:
even paints

Ehhhhhhhhhh no. other companies may be catching up but gw washes and glazes are hobby gold. so is some of the metallics.

the textured base paints are nice even if its not hard to make your own. the consistency is pretty important.

 Desubot wrote:

 Modock wrote:
even paints

Ehhhhhhhhhh no. other companies may be catching up but gw washes and glazes are hobby gold. so is some of the metallics.

the textured base paints are nice even if its not hard to make your own. the consistency is pretty important.

As a complete product in terms of price, bottle, quantity and quality gw paints are inferior to Vallejo that's no doubt about it.

Model air metallics are second to none
Army painter washes are basically the same as GW washes.

Unless either of you can cite some sort of objective measurement, you're drifting into the realms of subjectivity here. Even something that could be termed as objectively bad such as poor coverage could be seen as a positive from someone who liked to paint in many thin layers.

Yea I see what are you getting at but I'm not just comparing the quality which is roughly on par with Vallejo but the whole package.

Vallejo citadel
price < price
17ml > 12ml
bottle > pot
quality =.quality

I can only speak from my personal experience, but I just can't go back to GW paints after switching to Vallejo and Army Painter. Some of the technicals are indispensable, but when it comes to normal colors there's no contest. Vallejo, for me, has a better consistency and pigment distribution, as well as being much cheaper for almost 50% more per bottle. Don't even get me started on paint pots vs. dropper bottles...

The pots are a thing of the past. Dropper bottle is just superior.

In your opinion.

Why do people struggle with this? Your opinion is not objective, in any regard.

I agree, I prefer dropper bottles, but many people have professed over time to prefer GW pots because they're more stable (lower and wider) and don't require a palette or similar to use (shock horror, not everyone thins their paints all the time, me included.)