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Where are you getting this "touching = on terrain" from? Because that's not in the rules.

Exactly.

It's on or in, not touching.

This Baneblade does not receive any benefits to cover.

I'm fine with Baneblades not getting cover to be honest. They're massive. A fraction showing is the same as a man-sized target and should be as easy to hit. People are mostly getting worked up as it's a change. It plays fine in practise, plus you can fire back. You just don't get the benefits of hiding and free firing. If you can see and shoot you can be seen and shot.

Sometimes touching is the same as being on terrain. In 7th you needed to make a difficult terrain test even if the slightest part of your model entered difficult terrain after which it benefited from cover

If your model can't physically get on (due to having a flying base or raised hull in the front you can refer refer to the wobbly model syndrome so you declare it is on the terrain

Not my picture but it's the closest I could find on google: http://www.medpants.com/images/Projects/terrain/11.19.2014/smalljunglepair.jpg

Imagine the hormagaunt was even closer to the edge of the base of the terrain. As in extremely close, so close it's a matter of declaring rather than seeing (especially because the opponent will probably assume it is not in cover). Then replace the hormagaunt with a baneblade. The model is ON the terrain piece.

My understanding is if it's not fully on, it isn't on. No toeing in. May be wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

Q. Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A. If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

This makes the difference. Really makes things easier and even 7th edition like.

Got it. Still, "outside but touching" is not on or within.

What about "perched on top of the big rock with a single tree on it?"

Thats definitely ON the terrain.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'm fine with Baneblades not getting cover to be honest.

You realise you can replicate the example I used with every vehicle in the game. Substitute the Baneblade in that pic with a bit of a Russ peeking out, or a Land Raider, or a Trukk, or a Hammerhead, or a Dinobot, or whatever.

The problem isn't the Baneblade not getting cover. The problem is that in that example, regardless of vehicle it is, the vehicle has 0% cover despite the fact that you can hardly see it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Got it. Still, "outside but touching" is not on or within.

Touching becomes "on" when you use the wobbly model syndrome rule to nudge your model 0,01" onto or into the terrain and just declare it is on it even though it physically can't be.

So you're saying that in order to follow the rules, you must cheat?

What a novel concept.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'm fine with Baneblades not getting cover to be honest.

You realise you can replicate the example I used with every vehicle in the game. Substitute the Baneblade in that pic with a bit of a Russ peeking out, or a Land Raider, or a Trukk, or a Hammerhead, or a Dinobot, or whatever.

The problem isn't the Baneblade not getting cover. The problem is that in that example, regardless of vehicle it is, the vehicle has 0% cover despite the fact that you can hardly see it.

Yes I "do realise" thanks. I'm fine with it. Go play some games - I am. And it's fine.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So you're saying that in order to follow the rules, you must cheat?

What a novel concept.

How is it cheating?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'm fine with Baneblades not getting cover to be honest.

You realise you can replicate the example I used with every vehicle in the game. Substitute the Baneblade in that pic with a bit of a Russ peeking out, or a Land Raider, or a Trukk, or a Hammerhead, or a Dinobot, or whatever.

The problem isn't the Baneblade not getting cover. The problem is that in that example, regardless of vehicle it is, the vehicle has 0% cover despite the fact that you can hardly see it.

And if it was an infantry model standing behind that rock peeking out, it would get cover?

There is no "it's obscured therefore it gets cover" rule in 8th, so people need to stop complaining about a non-existing rule somehow not applying to vehicles. Standing behind terrain being obscured by whatever percentage doesn't do anything for any model in the game. It doesn't matter if you are a gretchin or a titan.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zaephyr wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Got it. Still, "outside but touching" is not on or within.

Touching becomes "on" when you use the wobbly model syndrome rule to nudge your model 0,01" onto or into the terrain and just declare it is on it even though it physically can't be.

It also becomes on if you put everything on a cardboard base.

 d-usa wrote:


And if it was an infantry model standing behind that rock peeking out, it would get cover?

There is no "it's obscured therefore it gets cover" rule in 8th, so people need to stop complaining about a non-existing rule somehow not applying to vehicles. Standing behind terrain being obscured by whatever percentage doesn't do anything for any model in the game. It doesn't matter if you are a gretchin or a titan.

Exactly, this is why as long as you can see one trooper in a squad you can hit all of them even if the other 9 are stood behind a wall and none of them get a cover save for being out of LoS. Nothing gets a cover save for being out of LoS, it just stops you shooting some things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, but, why do Plasma Guns explode more at night?

I've seen this so many times lately, I feel like I finally need to chime in.

We know plasma weapons "backfire" because they overheat, due to rapid, intense firing. When you roll your attack, you're not necessarily making one shot - unless you think, for example that each turn a marine only pulls the trigger twice on his automatic bolter or the nearby guardsman is only taking two shots with his flashlight water gun. When you're attacking a target at night, or in cover, you're possibly having to take a lot more shots than if that opponent was in the clear to get one to connect. The increased chance of a vent/meltdown is from all that extra shooting, that frankly, just missed and overloaded the weapon.

 Stormonu wrote:
I've seen this so many times lately, I feel like I finally need to chime in.

Probably would'a been easier just to say "It's an unintended consequence of a badly written rule that would be easily fixed by changing Plasma Guns to 'overheats on a natural 1'.", but whatever; you do you.

If it overheated on a natural one, wouldn't that make abilities that reroll ones really powerful? You can get a few of those now. With modifiers being applied, those sort of abilities aren't as powerful.

If it overheated on a natural one, and you had access to rerolls, there is no reason not to overcharge. Since modifiers are applied, you still have to make that decision.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I've seen this so many times lately, I feel like I finally need to chime in.

Probably would'a been easier just to say "It's an unintended consequence of a badly written rule that would be easily fixed by changing Plasma Guns to 'overheats on a natural 1'.", but whatever; you do you.

The easiest way would be to simply accept that an abstract game does not mirror fluff in every single corner case.

The rule is only considered badly written by most because it affects one of the most popular weapons of the Imperium in a negative way.
If there were more positive modifiers preventing overheating instead negative modifiers increasing the chance of overheating no one would give a damn.
If the rule would only affect tau or orks or nids (or all of them) the very same people arguing about terrible, unfair and unfluffy rule would instead claim natural superiority of Imperium technology as justification.

And then there is a tiny chance of intentionally connecting modifiers and results. I don't think there is any rule checking for natural results except re-rolls. Consistency means less checking the rules which is more important for rules quality than making overcharged plasma guns better when negative modifiers are applied.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I've seen this so many times lately, I feel like I finally need to chime in.

Probably would'a been easier just to say "It's an unintended consequence of a badly written rule that would be easily fixed by changing Plasma Guns to 'overheats on a natural 1'.", but whatever; you do you.

And based on your posting history, you could save a lot of time by keeping a notepad file of the following:

"This thing I like doesn't work the way I think it should and therefor it is stupid!"

Just copy-paste that into the little box and the bottom of the screen. There. Just saved you a lot of time, bud.

 EnTyme wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I've seen this so many times lately, I feel like I finally need to chime in.

Probably would'a been easier just to say "It's an unintended consequence of a badly written rule that would be easily fixed by changing Plasma Guns to 'overheats on a natural 1'.", but whatever; you do you.

And based on your posting history, you could save a lot of time by keeping a notepad file of the following:

"This thing I like doesn't work the way I think it should and therefor it is stupid!"

Just copy-paste that into the little box and the bottom of the screen. There. Just saved you a lot of time, bud.

I think you just summarized Dakka Dakka perfectly.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
My understanding is if it's not fully on, it isn't on. No toeing in. May be wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

Terrain rule says within, not 'wholly within'. As long as the entire unit is touching cover it gets cover, same with vehicles except they also have to be obscured.

ERJAK wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
My understanding is if it's not fully on, it isn't on. No toeing in. May be wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

Terrain rule says within, not 'wholly within'. As long as the entire unit is touching cover it gets cover, same with vehicles except they also have to be obscured.

Thanks, if you read on past the quote you posted you'd see others and I had discussed further.

Dark Phoenix wrote:

No, because we have now Schrödinger vehicules, that should be in one place but no, they can move, shoot, and get back in hiding, while being totally still to the squad next to the one that got shot!
This level of abstraction work on infantry, because they are small target, and could lean to get LoS, but not on vehicles... the equivalent for an infantry squad would be : "as long as one member get LoS, every one can shoot the target, even if they don't get LoS themselves. This is because they take turn to shoot at the corner of the wall."

I love Schrödinger vehicles

By the way, have you seen how agile modern combat vehicles are? They are way more agile than animals and yes, even humans. So if the abstraction works for infantry, it should also work for tanks.

Eh, I think it would have been better if they said for a vehicle to fire los has to be drawn from the firing weapon rather than any part of the vehicle. It would still be strange in places but much less so, and account for stuff like side-mounted guns (such as those on a land raider) in a simple manner.

As for plasma, I also feel it should be a natural 1 that causes overheat. Or better yet make it a natural 1 or 2 but make the effect a mortal wound instead of instant death (on all units instead of just characters).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

As for plasma, I also feel it should be a natural 1 that causes overheat. Or better yet make it a natural 1 or 2 but make the effect a mortal wound instead of instant death (on all units instead of just characters).

Mathematically plasma guns are one of the most efficient weapons currently. I'm somewhat ok with the un/intended consequence for now, but I don't run PG so hard for me to really say with confidence.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Because in the 41st Century we haven't created weapons to blast through whatever you are hiding behind?

Can we move the LoS / Cover conversation to its own thread?

I looked through my digital editions and still not finding any updates...

Still flying my T 14 Corvus Blackstar!

It's T 7 Corvus black star. It has 14 wounds. It's that way in all physical indexes

I beg to differ:



6's needed all around!

Point being again the whole reason I went digital was to print what I needed and have the most updated version of the information.

Still waiting

And 3 pages of LoS discussion - Good God the Internets have heard you. Move on.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
I beg to differ:



6's needed all around!

Point being again the whole reason I went digital was to print what I needed and have the most updated version of the information.

Still waiting

And 3 pages of LoS discussion - Good God the Internets have heard you. Move on.

I said the physical one has t7. I was not saying your digital version wasn't messed up. I get your butt hurt over spending the money for a crappy index. Everyone feels the same with all their indexes being screwed up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/09/forge-world-faq-july9gw-homepage-post-4/

No Redmaw, and chaos has access to a unit that they have to buy the imperial book to have stats for.

Awesome.