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Never mind. Dang

Breng77 wrote:
where is it specifically in matched play? This rule is in the Battle-forged army section. This can be used for any method of playing and is not specific to matched play. Now it is also not exclusive of matched play either, but I don't think the intent is that people going to tournaments bring understrength units, but instead to allow newer players to be able to play when they have less than full squads.

Well...

errata wrote:If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with).

Game modes that use points:
1. Matched Play.

I will say this, "type" is referenced in transport rules too. So "infantry" could very well be a type... or it's just referencing the broad definition of type.

Great.

So 2 model devastator, 2 model tactical squads (a special weapon and a meat shield, single centurions, 2 skitarri snipers, etc is all going to be a thing now.

 Lobukia wrote:
I will say this, "type" is referenced in transport rules too. So "infantry" could very well be a type... or it's just referencing the broad definition of type.

Great.

So 2 model devastator, 2 model tactical squads (a special weapon and a meat shield, single centurions, 2 skitarri snipers, etc is all going to be a thing now.

I guarantee you, they will not.

 Lobukia wrote:
I will say this, "type" is referenced in transport rules too. So "infantry" could very well be a type... or it's just referencing the broad definition of type.

Great.

So 2 model devastator, 2 model tactical squads (a special weapon and a meat shield, single centurions, 2 skitarri snipers, etc is all going to be a thing now.

No way would I get my Skitarii snipers without any meatshield around them. That unit's cost is a large majority tied up in the three sniper rifles I bring in my group of 10. The other 7 are mostly wounds for the rifles. Not to mention why would I ever take such expensive guns and then not give them a cheap Omnispex to ignore cover?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I guarantee you, they will not.

So you're new to 40k. Welcome!

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
where is it specifically in matched play? This rule is in the Battle-forged army section. This can be used for any method of playing and is not specific to matched play. Now it is also not exclusive of matched play either, but I don't think the intent is that people going to tournaments bring understrength units, but instead to allow newer players to be able to play when they have less than full squads.

Well...

errata wrote:If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with).

Game modes that use points:
1. Matched Play.

And where in the rulebook does it state that only matched play uses points? Or in fact that you must use points for matched play. In fact the matched play section says that you can choose based on wounds or power rating if you want. So it is encouraged to use points but not mandatory. There is nothing saying points cannot be used in Narrative Play. So again, nothing in the rulebook specifies that it must apply to matched play, or be specifically for matched play. Nothing says that it isn't either, but the intention of the rule is super clear.

The vast majority of these "Glaring, terribly written loopholes" had genuinely never even occurred to me until reading the frantic attempts to misinterpret and break the rules by TFG online. The intent is clear to me.

Breng77 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
where is it specifically in matched play? This rule is in the Battle-forged army section. This can be used for any method of playing and is not specific to matched play. Now it is also not exclusive of matched play either, but I don't think the intent is that people going to tournaments bring understrength units, but instead to allow newer players to be able to play when they have less than full squads.

Well...

errata wrote:If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with).

Game modes that use points:
1. Matched Play.

And where in the rulebook does it state that only matched play uses points? Or in fact that you must use points for matched play. In fact the matched play section says that you can choose based on wounds or power rating if you want. So it is encouraged to use points but not mandatory. There is nothing saying points cannot be used in Narrative Play. So again, nothing in the rulebook specifies that it must apply to matched play, or be specifically for matched play. Nothing says that it isn't either, but the intention of the rule is super clear.

I feel like you're just being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that Matched Play is where points belong, even if the book says "uh, you could even use the amount of wounds on models to balance in Matched Play!" and then goes on to explain how many power levels to use in Narrative and how many points to use under the Matched Play missions.

When they're creating a distinction for a rule based on the POINTS, that's clearly made with Matched Play in mind, because the vast majority of people are on board with the definition where points are matched play and power levels are Narrative that GW themselves are also pushing (while allowing for the option of using whatever else. Number of spikes on the models if you like.)

Like I said in the other thread, currently it is possible to abuse this rule to some extend to get "free" stuff (like Squad Sergeants) but I wouldn't base your entire army around it, as it's very likely they will solve the issue of people not having enough models to field full squads in the future and nip this rule.

In the meantime though, I am totally fielding a Court of Young Kings while it lasts!

 Lobukia wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I guarantee you, they will not.

So you're new to 40k. Welcome!

Yeah, cause I started 40k at the end of 2nd edition. No-no, I'm obviously some wet behind the ears welp who knows nothing.

Still, looks like I'll be taking a Grot Oiler as my HQ for the time being.

Just double checking, it's perfectly fine to take a Big Mek w/ Grot Oiler and not bring the Mek, same for the Big Mek in Mega Armour and Big Mek on Bike, right?

You should know? Considering your sarcastic and defensive reply to what was obviously a comment made in jest. You must know the rules regarding the Mek and Oiler. No?

 Hollow wrote:
You should know? Considering your sarcastic and defensive reply to what was obviously a comment made in jest. You must know the rules regarding the Mek and Oiler. No?

Of course I know, but I am graciously asking the people in this thread dedicated to the discussion of the Understrength Unit Rule if they have also come to the same conclusion.

I actually think the Unit Type is a bit more different than a role. The GW page at least refers to Unit Types as:


Biker
Vehicle
Monster
Cavalry
Beast
Character
Infantry
Psyker
Flyer

So you won't be using min. Tac and min. Devs together as they are both Infantry. If my hunch is correct that is.

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
where is it specifically in matched play? This rule is in the Battle-forged army section. This can be used for any method of playing and is not specific to matched play. Now it is also not exclusive of matched play either, but I don't think the intent is that people going to tournaments bring understrength units, but instead to allow newer players to be able to play when they have less than full squads.

Well...

errata wrote:If you are using points, you only pay the points for the models you actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear they are equipped with).

Game modes that use points:
1. Matched Play.

And where in the rulebook does it state that only matched play uses points? Or in fact that you must use points for matched play. In fact the matched play section says that you can choose based on wounds or power rating if you want. So it is encouraged to use points but not mandatory. There is nothing saying points cannot be used in Narrative Play. So again, nothing in the rulebook specifies that it must apply to matched play, or be specifically for matched play. Nothing says that it isn't either, but the intention of the rule is super clear.

I feel like you're just being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that Matched Play is where points belong, even if the book says "uh, you could even use the amount of wounds on models to balance in Matched Play!" and then goes on to explain how many power levels to use in Narrative and how many points to use under the Matched Play missions.

When they're creating a distinction for a rule based on the POINTS, that's clearly made with Matched Play in mind, because the vast majority of people are on board with the definition where points are matched play and power levels are Narrative that GW themselves are also pushing (while allowing for the option of using whatever else. Number of spikes on the models if you like.)

Sorry but no, they no where say that you "must" use a particular method of army selection in either matched or narrative, only that the typical will be matched will be points. Absolutely nothing says "you must create power level armies for narrative play. To me it seems much more likely that in order to cover their bases they include points, other wise if people decide to use points the under strength unit rules need not apply. It is precisely you last statement that is the important point. They allow you to use whatever option to choose armies you want, and as such must write rules to cover this case for both points and power level. It in no way implies that their intent would be for serious competitive matched play at tournament to use the understrength squad rule, or that it was intended to game the battle forged army system. I think you believing otherwise is being disingenuous. IT is obvious the intent is "hey even if you don't have enough models you can still play". You have not shown in anyway that POINTS = MATCHED PLAY, because that relationship simply does not exist in the rules.

In the end it is irrelevant as I expect all tournaments to outlaw understrength units, and personally if it is obvious someone are gaming the system I would not play that person. If it is a new player who has only a partial squad on the other hand no problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarsif wrote:
I actually think the Unit Type is a bit more different than a role. The GW page at least refers to Unit Types as:


Biker
Vehicle
Monster
Cavalry
Beast
Character
Infantry
Psyker
Flyer

So you won't be using min. Tac and min. Devs together as they are both Infantry. If my hunch is correct that is.

I don't think that holds, as in that case you can only ever have one squad understrength in your whole army, because the picture you show lists things like Imperium, so that would also be a type.

Notice that the field says "Types and Keywords" which means that Types and Keywords are most likely somewhat linked. It also actually holds quite well when you look at the core ruleset page 9 and see in the transport field:

Transport Capacity: All transports have a transport capacity
listed on their datasheet. This determines how many friendly
models, and of what type, they can carry.

If you start to look into the transport fields you will see that most(if not all) transports field types as:

(Chapter) Infantry
Ork Infantry
(Legion) Infantry
(Craftworld) Infantry

Now, it's not bullet proof, but what would GW be without some missing data? They of course will have to address what they consider type in the eventual follow up FAQ.

RAW: If you own enough models to not field an understrength unit, or if you don't fill it up with all of the models you have available, you're breaking the rules if you use one. So make sure you sell off all your other Dire Avengers if you're fielding a single exarch!

Pink Horror wrote:
RAW: If you own enough models to not field an understrength unit, or if you don't fill it up with all of the models you have available, you're breaking the rules if you use one. So make sure you sell off all your other Dire Avengers if you're fielding a single exarch!

Or, ya know, field a full sized dire avenger squad AND an exarch?

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

I agree, the intent of the rule is clearly a "I'm new to the game and only have 3 terminator models" (or I play chaos, and onyl have 3 terminator models because I converted 1 to a sorc, and 1 to a lord. and the miniumum size used to be 3 models) which is good. but matched play shoudn't be something you go into in your first warhammer game

BrianDavion wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That is not what type means.

Pink Horror wrote:
RAW: If you own enough models to not field an understrength unit, or if you don't fill it up with all of the models you have available, you're breaking the rules if you use one. So make sure you sell off all your other Dire Avengers if you're fielding a single exarch!

WHY CANT PEOPLE READ. actually read.

Where on earth or the galaxy have people seen anything about models you own????????

It says AVAILABLE!

So I only bring what I want to game with.....WOW....just like you and most players...you make a list and bring in your models. The stuff at home is not Available! Everyone is reading their own emotions into a fairly straightforward rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I agree, the intent of the rule is clearly a "I'm new to the game and only have 3 terminator models" (or I play chaos, and onyl have 3 terminator models because I converted 1 to a sorc, and 1 to a lord. and the miniumum size used to be 3 models) which is good. but matched play shoudn't be something you go into in your first warhammer game

Again you are reading your OWN interpretation into this rule.

Example: Someone started in Rogue Trader 30 years ago. They ARE NOT NEW TO THE GAME. GW releases the new super slimedeathray army. You only have x amount of the models they have released for whatever reasons. BOOM This rule applies.

Perhaps you did not bring all your models. You have a 1500 point match. Next game is a 2000 point match. You scrap what you have and you have min squads!!

The absolute BEST part of this rule is that if you have 30 points left you can fill out your list EASILY NOW. OR if you have all the pieces you want but find yourself over by 40 points you just remove 3 models and you are legal. WOW what a great concept.

I do enjoy all the doomslayers using the word "if" in every reason that undersized units 'may' destroy any chance of having fun. So a 4 knight Detachment is fluffy and all and may be fun for the guy wanting to play with his models, but it sure as heck makes for a lot of consistently unfun games for many opponents. 7th ed players don't seem to mind this but a lot of returning players may.
There used to be a minimum of 25% troop choices not 2 tiny min sized squads in Detatchments that are marginal like the winning flyer list. There used to be a maximum of 50% for heavy support units so you NEVER had to face an overly unbalanced list like 4 knight titans!
Detachments are neat and all, but a ton of spam lists and other over the top problems could be prevented by putting limits back in like the 25%/50% there used to be.

The list says unit types or Keyword.
So unit types are:
Biker
Vehicle
Monster
Cavalry
Beast
Character
Infantry
Psyker
Flyer

And others are Keywords.

I just think people are imagining some worst case scenario that isn't even possible. With the limitation of the system you will be quite unable to fill out huge detachments with USU(Understrength Units). Besides the issue that to get larger/more detachments you will have to add more HQ which takes up a chunk of points and can't force multiply anything due to its detachment being a USU or two.

I really don't see the end of the world with USU like some people. It's not going to give you a galore of Command Points, and the small USU will be ripe for a First Blood grab. Want to put a single Guardian into a squad? Sure, I'll just shoot him and get me some kill points/first blood. An Exarch or a single Sergeant is not going to be game breaking and if you truly believe so I suggest you actually try playing a single Exarch/Sybarite/Sergeant and just see how much OP it is. You'll most likely just wonder why you didn't spend the points more wisely.

With people who are trying to argue owns/have shenanigans. How are you going to prove that someone owns something? You going to ask your FLGS to hold an extensive database on all the players? Maybe add a serial number to mark each and every model? So if a person loses a model they have to report it to their group/FLGS as if it were like a stolen gun? It would be quite the meta-metagaming and I'd be sincerely impressed if it came to that.

 Pepe96 wrote:
The list says unit types or Keyword.
So unit types are:
Biker
Vehicle
Monster
Cavalry
Beast
Character
Infantry
Psyker
Flyer

And others are Keywords.

Those are also things found in the keyword field on a data sheet so what makes them types and not keywords?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarsif wrote:
I just think people are imagining some worst case scenario that isn't even possible. With the limitation of the system you will be quite unable to fill out huge detachments with USU(Understrength Units). Besides the issue that to get larger/more detachments you will have to add more HQ which takes up a chunk of points and can't force multiply anything due to its detachment being a USU or two.

I really don't see the end of the world with USU like some people. It's not going to give you a galore of Command Points, and the small USU will be ripe for a First Blood grab. Want to put a single Guardian into a squad? Sure, I'll just shoot him and get me some kill points/first blood. An Exarch or a single Sergeant is not going to be game breaking and if you truly believe so I suggest you actually try playing a single Exarch/Sybarite/Sergeant and just see how much OP it is. You'll most likely just wonder why you didn't spend the points more wisely.

With people who are trying to argue owns/have shenanigans. How are you going to prove that someone owns something? You going to ask your FLGS to hold an extensive database on all the players? Maybe add a serial number to mark each and every model? So if a person loses a model they have to report it to their group/FLGS as if it were like a stolen gun? It would be quite the meta-metagaming and I'd be sincerely impressed if it came to that.

So your not getting CP galore is false. Say right now I am taking 3 detachments (1 each, vanguard, spearhead, outrider). I have a total of 6 CP and I'm taking 3 HQ choices. using the USU rule I now fill 6 cheap troop slots with single models (say for a chaos Daemon faction, 1 blue horror, 1 pink horror, 1 brimstone horror, 1 daemonette, 1 bloodletter, 1 plague bearer. ). So for 43 points Of troops, I gain 6 CP doubling what I had, for little extra investment. It also means that in a limited detachment format that I have 2 additional detachments to play with now, so if I had 3 more has I my current list I get a CP for supreme command.

You cannot prove someone owns something, but really if you see something like the above are you really going to think they aren't trying to game the system. Or the guy that for blood angels conveniently only has the plasma pistol sarge, and 2 melts gun assault marines in his deep striking suicide squad? Or the single assault cannot terminator? Or a single deaths get assault cannon terminator in addition to his regular one? Or a 4 man devestator squad, a 4 man stern guard squad, and a character all in a drop pod? The list of potential things you could do by "abusing" this rule is pretty high and fairly blatantly obvious.

You say easy first blood, not when those units start in reserve, or all in one transport, or in a building, or out of LOS etc.

Breng77 wrote:

 Pepe96 wrote:
The list says unit types or Keyword.
So unit types are:
Biker
Vehicle
Monster
Cavalry
Beast
Character
Infantry
Psyker
Flyer

And others are Keywords.

Those are also things found in the keyword field on a data sheet so what makes them types and not keywords?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarsif wrote:
I just think people are imagining some worst case scenario that isn't even possible. With the limitation of the system you will be quite unable to fill out huge detachments with USU(Understrength Units). Besides the issue that to get larger/more detachments you will have to add more HQ which takes up a chunk of points and can't force multiply anything due to its detachment being a USU or two.

I really don't see the end of the world with USU like some people. It's not going to give you a galore of Command Points, and the small USU will be ripe for a First Blood grab. Want to put a single Guardian into a squad? Sure, I'll just shoot him and get me some kill points/first blood. An Exarch or a single Sergeant is not going to be game breaking and if you truly believe so I suggest you actually try playing a single Exarch/Sybarite/Sergeant and just see how much OP it is. You'll most likely just wonder why you didn't spend the points more wisely.

With people who are trying to argue owns/have shenanigans. How are you going to prove that someone owns something? You going to ask your FLGS to hold an extensive database on all the players? Maybe add a serial number to mark each and every model? So if a person loses a model they have to report it to their group/FLGS as if it were like a stolen gun? It would be quite the meta-metagaming and I'd be sincerely impressed if it came to that.

So your not getting CP galore is false. Say right now I am taking 3 detachments (1 each, vanguard, spearhead, outrider). I have a total of 6 CP and I'm taking 3 HQ choices. using the USU rule I now fill 6 cheap troop slots with single models (say for a chaos Daemon faction, 1 blue horror, 1 pink horror, 1 brimstone horror, 1 daemonette, 1 bloodletter, 1 plague bearer. ). So for 43 points Of troops, I gain 6 CP doubling what I had, for little extra investment. It also means that in a limited detachment format that I have 2 additional detachments to play with now, so if I had 3 more has I my current list I get a CP for supreme command.

You cannot prove someone owns something, but really if you see something like the above are you really going to think they aren't trying to game the system. Or the guy that for blood angels conveniently only has the plasma pistol sarge, and 2 melts gun assault marines in his deep striking suicide squad? Or the single assault cannot terminator? Or a single deaths get assault cannon terminator in addition to his regular one? Or a 4 man devestator squad, a 4 man stern guard squad, and a character all in a drop pod? The list of potential things you could do by "abusing" this rule is pretty high and fairly blatantly obvious.

You say easy first blood, not when those units start in reserve, or all in one transport, or in a building, or out of LOS etc.

First things first.

Not all units can start in reserve like in 8th. You'd have to really look for units that can go into reserves to make that work. Also still not worried about someone out of LOS as they are still an easy target as there is decent amount of mortar-like weapons in 8th. Remember that you can split fire weapons/shots so you don't even need to have an entire unit shoot down that single guy. In transports you can hide them, but then you are spending more points to add a transport for that detachment(In your daemon example there wouldn't be many transports to use).

You mention the following:

1 blue horror, 1 pink horror, 1 brimstone horror, 1 daemonette, 1 bloodletter, 1 plague bearer

This would be illegal as they all share the same type(Infantry) so you could only take one of those as USU. Those 6 CP you just claimed are therefore illegal, ergo the falsehood seems to be on your end. You seem also to be worried about that single guy with a heavy weapon, but that goes against your earlier "hide you spouse hide you kids" tactic so that unit becomes easily targettable and I just killed your single Hurricane Terminator and got a kill point. What you going to do now?

Also, I own a unit of 9 bloodletters as I used one at one point to make my Belial conversion. Are you going to demand I show proof of purchase, that you perhaps get to rummage through my collection just so you can be completely sure I just have 9 Bloodletters? Perhaps you feel justified to invade other people's privacy because of a game of plastic miniatures. What do I know.

In short, you appear to fear a single cockroach believing it to be a swarm of Hive Tyrants. Many of these fears appear to be based on sensibilities from earlier editions, but as my friend has often stated: "You must unlearn everything and start fresh. Everything has changed." I would at least need to see actual proof of play where this actually is abused and makes a difference instead of this theorycrafting.

PS: I do concede the point that GW needs to clarify this further; to establish their absolute intent and limitations.

So your not getting CP galore is false. Say right now I am taking 3 detachments (1 each, vanguard, spearhead, outrider). I have a total of 6 CP and I'm taking 3 HQ choices. using the USU rule I now fill 6 cheap troop slots with single models (say for a chaos Daemon faction, 1 blue horror, 1 pink horror, 1 brimstone horror, 1 daemonette, 1 bloodletter, 1 plague bearer. ). So for 43 points Of troops, I gain 6 CP doubling what I had, for little extra investment. It also means that in a limited detachment format that I have 2 additional detachments to play with now, so if I had 3 more has I my current list I get a CP for supreme command.

It would be easy to change that spearhead/vanguard/outrider list to grap a Battalion + 1 vanguard. You have to try hard not to have 3 troop choices in a 2k army list. So you were taking the extremes of lists to prove your point. More often than not it would be 7 cp vs 12....so a difference of 5.

What is that like 3 rerolls and 1 countercharge extra in a game. THIS this is what has some people's panties in a bunch? There are a ton of other list shenanigans that should worry players than 3 rerolls or so....wow

You cannot prove someone owns something,

Why do people keep 'inventing' or making up their own rules.
THERE is NOTHING about ownership.
The wording is Available. IF you chose not bring them with you they are' not Available' It is simple as that or perhaps more complicated.

Perhaps you flew from California to a New York Game Con. You get off your plane and find that you have only 1 of your 2 bags. You make your list with half your stuff and bam the rules goes into effect and you have an USU. You play and have a great time. Next day your other bag arrives and now if you play the EXACT same list you are a cheating powergaming scum.

Same player, same list, one day is cool, next day is the evil of all evil.
This is how you guys are arguing it. Not us. Methinks more time to chill and more time to play it out and see if it is really a 'the sky is falling ' moment or not.

A word to those who are wholly against this: "man-up" til we see if it is a broken rule.

One of my friends showed me the following 500-point brigade abusing this:

1 Big Mek
1 Big Mek
1 Big Mek

1 Boy
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
1 Gretchin

1 Burna Boy
1 Kommando
1 Tankbusta

1 Stormboy
1 Warbiker
1 Warbuggy

1 Big Gun
1 Flash Git
1 Loota



While I don't think it's anything that going to be winning games or shaking up the meta any time soon, considering it looks terrible, it is kinda of funny..

The rule is meant for twelve year olds who spent their allowance on a box of Chaos Raptors - built three, and then built two warp talons cause they looked cool - and now can't field any legal units.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Pepe96 wrote:
I think you still can take only one understrength squad.

Is that per army or per detachment?

Per unit type.

So you can only take one understrength tactical squad, one understrength scout squad, one understrength intercessor squad, etc, for space marine troop choices.

 admironheart wrote:

So your not getting CP galore is false. Say right now I am taking 3 detachments (1 each, vanguard, spearhead, outrider). I have a total of 6 CP and I'm taking 3 HQ choices. using the USU rule I now fill 6 cheap troop slots with single models (say for a chaos Daemon faction, 1 blue horror, 1 pink horror, 1 brimstone horror, 1 daemonette, 1 bloodletter, 1 plague bearer. ). So for 43 points Of troops, I gain 6 CP doubling what I had, for little extra investment. It also means that in a limited detachment format that I have 2 additional detachments to play with now, so if I had 3 more has I my current list I get a CP for supreme command.

It would be easy to change that spearhead/vanguard/outrider list to grap a Battalion + 1 vanguard. You have to try hard not to have 3 troop choices in a 2k army list. So you were taking the extremes of lists to prove your point. More often than not it would be 7 cp vs 12....so a difference of 5.

What is that like 3 rerolls and 1 countercharge extra in a game. THIS this is what has some people's panties in a bunch? There are a ton of other list shenanigans that should worry players than 3 rerolls or so....wow

You cannot prove someone owns something,

Why do people keep 'inventing' or making up their own rules.
THERE is NOTHING about ownership.
The wording is Available. IF you chose not bring them with you they are' not Available' It is simple as that or perhaps more complicated.

Perhaps you flew from California to a New York Game Con. You get off your plane and find that you have only 1 of your 2 bags. You make your list with half your stuff and bam the rules goes into effect and you have an USU. You play and have a great time. Next day your other bag arrives and now if you play the EXACT same list you are a cheating powergaming scum.

Same player, same list, one day is cool, next day is the evil of all evil.
This is how you guys are arguing it. Not us. Methinks more time to chill and more time to play it out and see if it is really a 'the sky is falling ' moment or not.

A word to those who are wholly against this: "man-up" til we see if it is a broken rule.

If you have more models "available" and decide to use the understrength rules anyway, then you are powergaming scum at a minimum, and you're cheating by RAW. Sorry. I didn't write the rules.