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The actual big mistake GW made is not publishing the unit rules for free online as they do with AOS. By doing this and making the Indexes a convenience purchase for use as a stopgap, it means consumers have made the active choice with the knowledge that they are a temporary measure.

Otherwise it is great to see Codexes coming thick and fast.

Umbros wrote:

The actual big mistake GW made is not publishing the unit rules for free online as they do with AOS. By doing this and making the Indexes a convenience purchase for use as a stopgap, it means consumers have made the active choice with the knowledge that they are a temporary measure.

Otherwise it is great to see Codexes coming thick and fast.

Yeah, mixed feelings on it myself. My Xeno 2 book is still in its wrapping as i've been reading the leaked version so could send it back.


GW did say 8th will be the most playtested version of the game, they just didn't say that buying their indexes was part of that playtest

Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.

Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.

Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.

I'm right with you on that as Thousand Sons. Why Death Guard ended up being the faction with two spell lists and not us is beyond me. It would certainly make the Exalted Sorcerer a more attractive option if it could take from a different spell list (though if it did, Ahriman would also get that spell list and we're right back to the problem of ES's being a gakky Ahriman for only a few points less...).

I'm not sure how they could possibly avoid the armies with codices being superior to the armies without; having options is simply always better than not having options. I guess we'll have to see if <Army> Tactics and the various stratagems are significantly stronger than what's in the Index.

I just hope they fix Tau.

We don't get to have psychic powers and suck in combat, that's fine.

In return for this we get to bad at shooting and have low leadership instead...

And our jump shoot jump got taken away, and suits made more expensive and have redundant options already.

I am very excited for this news. I hope we see Sisters/Ministorum in the first ten. Likely not, so I am very happy I have Imperium 2.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.

Hell, it's not balanced right now. Eldar get to cast more powers than my Tyranids, who are reduced to spamming Smite once they've used their three basic powers.

The good thing is that they will be releasing the Chapter Approved books every year to try and balance out discrepancies. There will never be perfect balance but by having a more active update cycle it means big issues can be smoothed out quickly.

I personally don't have an issue with Eldar being more psychically able than Tyranids. That seems fine to me. Eldar, TS, GK are the psychic armies in my opinion. Plus I don't think Tyranids are lacking . Too many psychic powers just bogs the game down when there is already so much variety in unit types and equipment. But that is besides the point.

My advice to people with specific balance issues is to contact GW directly - they openly solicit feedback. If you don't tell them something is an issue they may never find out about it.

I'd still rather they did living PDF Points updates and changes, and left us money to buy models.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd still rather they did living PDF Points updates and changes, and left us money to buy models.

For the points, that's what they said they would do, so I guess you will be happy with that part.

I am personally happy that they provided us a low priced models updates with the shakedown they did with the rules. I see those as simple base line reset while we wait for the more detailed individual army updates with more special rules for specific army sub factions, specific stratagems and more extensive psychic choices.

To me, NewGWtm are still pressing on all the right button for what concerns me... well.... those Primaris marines should simply have been models for tactical marines but ... anyways...

So, will Plague Marines feature in Codex CSM or just in Codex Death Guard?

I guess just the Plague Marines will appear, leaving the fluffy units (poxwalkers and drones) to the Death Guard Codex.

I suppose that would apply to all God specific squads.

Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard. Any Marine can become a Berzerker or Plague Marine or Noise Marine by devoting themselves to that god. Or a CSM warlord can just hire them. So they should appear in the CSM codex.

Anyway I don't see why people have a problem. We all knew from the start the Indexes were temporary stopgaps to be replaced by actual Codexes. Are people actually upset the Codexes are coming so soon?

To be fair, GW should have made all the content of the Indexes free, and that's where the anger should be. "All of your models are still legit in the new edition! As long as you buy our new rules..."

I have bought the Indexes that cover all the various armies that I play (Imperium 1 and 2, Xenos 2). I have no problem with Codexes coming out soon for part or all of the relevant bits of those indexes for me... As long as they maintain the model from 7th, where you get a hardback codex with all the rules, plus loads of fluff and pictures and other unnecessary stuff (from the gaming point of view, rather than hobby) and you also have the option of a Gamer's Edition digital codex, with rules only.

I'm 32, I've been playing Orks since I was 14. I have the internetz. I don't need pictures of painted Orks in my codex, I can look at arguably better painted models for inspiration here on Dakka. The fluff will be the last codexes' fluff, with an added paragraph or two mentioning the impact of the great warp rift, and adeptus restartes. Great, I can get a reader's digest version of the amended fluff by reading Dakka too. All I need is the rules, and I'm quite happy to get the Gamer's Edition digital copy of the rules (the enhanced one where when you click on a special rule that refers out to a different page, it either links you there, or pops up a box with the details).

Now I have an Index that gets me away right away, and further embellished rules and flavour coming later via a digital download that will cost significantly less than a hardback codex. Hurrah for 8th!!

If they don't offer the Gamer's Edition digital version, I will be thoroughly annoyed.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Things will be unbalanced again immediately, there's no doubt about that. CP spam plus army-specific synergised Stratagems will favour whoever has a Dex designed to specifically buff them properly, vs the guy limping along on default Warlord traits, bog standard Psychic powers and three basic stratagems.

You mean like Orks were favored with their army-specific warlord traits, psychic diciplines and relics in their last codex?

If there is anything to learn from GW's history on this kind of thing, it's that the first two or three codices will probably be way to weak compared anything made afterwards.

 insaniak wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

10 codexes in 6 months is a fairy decent release schedule. There really isn't much else they could do unless they just didn't release rule supplements for a year to drop them all at once (which would be even more of an issue money wise for people with multiple armies).

...or abandon the codex model completely, and stick with the indexes to reduce the number of different books people need to buy to keep up with the rules.

...or release the rules online or with the models, and use the Codex the way Privateer have done, to provide expanded fluff for those who want it without actually requiring the book to play the army.

At the very least, if the indexes had been included with the rules or released online, people wouldn't be complaining as much about the codexes coming along and invalidating them.

Abandoning the codex model leaves us with really dull armies, and isn't a real option long term. There just isn't enough space in the indices to add rules to properly flesh out every army. Yes free army rules would be nice, but lets be honest here these will be scanned and uploaded within a week or two of release.

No people would still complain.

 Eldarain wrote:
Big moment coming up. Army specific "chapter tactics" psychic lores and strategems are all balance landmines given GW's history.

Certainly, but you won't be casting multiples of powers, stratagems are tied to a resource, and enough books will be coming out in a short time under the same design philosophy instead of years later when writers change their minds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marleymoo wrote:
So, will Plague Marines feature in Codex CSM or just in Codex Death Guard?

I guess just the Plague Marines will appear, leaving the fluffy units (poxwalkers and drones) to the Death Guard Codex.

I suppose that would apply to all God specific squads.

You'll be able to take any current CSM unit i'm sure.

The Death Guard book will just have their specific lore, stratagems, and unit selection. I would expect the *very* Death Guard stuff like Bloat Drones and Poxwalkers may not be in CSM.

I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Requizen wrote:

Iron Mike wrote:

Requizen wrote:
....GW literally can't win unless they give every rule and model away for free with a ticket to Disneyland...

The only rules they should "sell" are the core rules.
We pay for the models, we pay for the terrain, we pay for all the hobby equipment, and we build and paint the whole fething game ourselves.
The rules for the models should be included as part of their purchase.

They building and painting is an enjoyable part of the hobby, not a downside that one suffers through. At least, it isn't supposed to be. That's like half the selling point of miniatures.

Honestly, that depends on who you are. As a gamer, I love the depth, the fluff and the fluidity of the game, but I am not a hobbyist or artist, so I paint because I have to to participate in a game that I really enjoy.

Back OT; I wish they would have let the indexes ride for 6 months or so and then started the codex release cycle. Then, since the codices are already done, they could release 1 every 2 weeks rather than monthly and not have armies that will be left behind and languish for a while waiting for their new options. I just hope these are at $30.00 rather than $50.00; at 50, I may be back out of the game as quickly as I was back in


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nuclear Mekanik wrote:
I have bought the Indexes that cover all the various armies that I play (Imperium 1 and 2, Xenos 2). I have no problem with Codexes coming out soon for part or all of the relevant bits of those indexes for me... As long as they maintain the model from 7th, where you get a hardback codex with all the rules, plus loads of fluff and pictures and other unnecessary stuff (from the gaming point of view, rather than hobby) and you also have the option of a Gamer's Edition digital codex, with rules only.

I'm 32, I've been playing Orks since I was 14. I have the internetz. I don't need pictures of painted Orks in my codex, I can look at arguably better painted models for inspiration here on Dakka. The fluff will be the last codexes' fluff, with an added paragraph or two mentioning the impact of the great warp rift, and adeptus restartes. Great, I can get a reader's digest version of the amended fluff by reading Dakka too. All I need is the rules, and I'm quite happy to get the Gamer's Edition digital copy of the rules (the enhanced one where when you click on a special rule that refers out to a different page, it either links you there, or pops up a box with the details).

Now I have an Index that gets me away right away, and further embellished rules and flavour coming later via a digital download that will cost significantly less than a hardback codex. Hurrah for 8th!!

If they don't offer the Gamer's Edition digital version, I will be thoroughly annoyed.

I so wholeheartedly agree with this. I know the fluff of the Tyranids inside and out and I don't think they will ever add enough story to justify the price and I don't paint my nids like any of the fluff Hive Fleets, so there is nothing in those books that interest me. They need to keep the codices reasonably priced and the Gamer's Edition is a great option for this.

This is why I kept saying they need to ditch books entirely and move to putting the rules on cheap cardstock. That way it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to have all the rules.

I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.

But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.

I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.

hypnoticeris wrote:
I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.

But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.

I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.

What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.

Also, be aware that the Codexes aren't really optional in that we've been told they will update and invalidate some unit entries found in the Indexes. You can always ignore the Codex and keep playing with the Index, but that would be the same as ignoring 8th and keep playing with 7th. If you want the most up to date rules, you (with your multi faction armies) will need to spend hundreds of euros on new books.

If you want the most up to date rules, you (with your multi faction armies) will need to spend hundreds of euros on new books.

My 7 armies are eyeballing me warily right now

 Ratius wrote:
My 7 armies are eyeballing me warily right now

Your armies being like your children.
Which ones get the money before it runs out for the others...
You may have to sell some off for medical experiments!


I am sure your wallet is eyeballing you even more warily, worrying about the stuffing being taken out of it.

 Jidmah wrote:


If there is anything to learn from GW's history on this kind of thing, it's that the first two or three codices will probably be way to weak compared anything made afterwards.

generally agree. HOWEVER....

the first two books in 2nd edition that were released were Space Wolves and Eldar. Both had notoriety as being better than most books that followed in that edition.

Your armies being like your children.
Which ones get the money before it runs out for the others...

Haha! I'll roll a d6 per army. Lowest score gets updated last :p

 Kriswall wrote:

hypnoticeris wrote:
I bought the 5 indexes on release because I own a small amount of models of almost each faction on top of my 2 main armies so they were pretty convenient for me. If the contents of the codexes is meaningful enough (relics and "chapter tactics" equivalents), and if they are softback, and if they are priced appropriately (20€ max) i can see myself picking up a couple for my main armies.

But that is a lot of "and"s ar "if"s. Otherwise I play with close friends, with the rulebook, the indexes and in-box stats I can manage for a loooong looong while.

I am however a bit dissappointed that all indexes will be at least partly invalidated within a year. But it's nothing unexpected.

What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.

Also, be aware that the Codexes aren't really optional in that we've been told they will update and invalidate some unit entries found in the Indexes. You can always ignore the Codex and keep playing with the Index, but that would be the same as ignoring 8th and keep playing with 7th. If you want the most up to date rules, you (with your multi faction armies) will need to spend hundreds of euros on new books.

Yea, that makes sense. Codex 40k is 8.5.

 Kriswall wrote:


What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.

Wanna bet?

Glad I didn't buy the Chaos index (been able to play easily with enough leaked info).

If the hardbacks return tot he $50+ model I'll continue to play with the index. I don't find the armies "dull", but I don't need 1,000 special snow flake rules to enjoy playing a wargame. It blows my mind when people say anything is dull when you have 25 damn armies and 2-3x as many unit entries than existed 10-15 years ago. Spoiled much?

The codex direction I'd have wished to see them go will not happen so I won't even bother mentioning it here.

 Ghaz wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I am getting confused by all this. Is there codexes & indexes? Or do codexes replace indexes? Or are indexes aka codexes? Are there codexes for each army? Or is it faction ciodexes? So lost.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

thx

 EnTyme wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


What we've seen is hardback (to match the core rules) and will almost certainly cost around 40-50USD per Codex. 20EUR is probably not a realistic expectation.

Wanna bet?

Of the 10 rulebooks on the page you linked me to, 8 were in the 40-50+ price range. One was 35 and one (a softback re-release) was 25. I'm not sure why you think that's evidence that 20EUR (~22USD) would be a realistic expectation for books going forward.