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Far from me to ever defend Just Tony's post, but he wasn't saying "they can't ever buff something if people don't find it useful".

But the thing is, Power Fists are actually in a pretty good spot right now relative to other melee weapons. The only possible exception to this is Thunder Hammers, which is more because they made THs literally just an upgrade to a power fist when they should have made it a sidegrade.

Anything with S5+ should carry a Power Fist.

Thunder Hammers are gross and need some kind of change either points or stats.

 Just Tony wrote:

Don't be obtuse, it's no different than when the rules changed to make shooting better than melee, or to make the new hotness grossly imbalanced over the last default choice. This happens every edition change.

Rules changed to make shooting better than melee?

You do realize that Melee has been better than shooting in every conceivable way for over a decade. Right?

Locking shooting units into CC with a tarpit, completely negating them with a cheap unit they have no possibility of killing while you handle the rest of their army, AND causing the melee to completely block his lines of fire has always been OP.

And don't get me started on sweeping advance. I've had squads consisting of upwards of 18 necron warriors swept off the board by a single model due to limitations on my ability to swing back when charged, combined with an utter lack of power weapons, due to a single failed moral check that my opponents were generally immune to.

Shooting has been weaker than CC, barring large template spam, since forever.

This is the first time I've ever seen shooting armies given a chance in hell of competing with hard-core CC in 4 full editions of WH40k.

 Arandmoor wrote:
You do realize that Melee has been better than shooting in every conceivable way for over a decade. Right?

You didn't play 7th edition, did you? Or half of sixth. Or the start of fifth.

 Arandmoor wrote:
You do realize that Melee has been better than shooting in every conceivable way for over a decade. Right?

Pfffft...

 Melissia wrote:
Far from me to ever defend Just Tony's post, but he wasn't saying "they can't ever buff something if people don't find it useful".

I dunno. The whole thing has jumped the shark when S8 AP3 3 over S8 AP3 D3 at the same point cost is used to justify cynicism of GW motives.

Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

They didn't reduce the price of chainfists, still at 22. Why would you ever take them now?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

So, wait, are they now 12?

A SM captain pays just 2 more points for a PF than a guardsman?

Yeah, this really looks like an improvement in balance.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

So, wait, are they now 12?

A SM captain pays just 2 more points for a PF than a guardsman?

Yeah, this really looks like an improvement in balance.

I"m sure they'll be cheaper in your codex. After using them on old models, they are NOT worth 20 pts in 8th. Not even close.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

So, wait, are they now 12?

A SM captain pays just 2 more points for a PF than a guardsman?

Yeah, this really looks like an improvement in balance.

It's a very common complaint that S3 armies pay far too much for strength-multiplying weapons.

Just be glad you aren't Sisters of Battle... I'd take 10 point power fists for my canoness any day...

I can't find the Errata for the Power Fist point drop, where is it?

Its not an errata its new costs in the marine dex.
Frankly i like the fist over the hammer as you can still give the wielder a gun so they can do stuff on the way in.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I can't find the Errata for the Power Fist point drop, where is it?

The new Space Marine Codex dropped the points cost for Power Fists by a fairly decent amount. Granted its only for Codex Marines but if i was one to gamble then I would bet that PF type weapons will see a points reduction in other army codexes like Space Wolves, Blood Angles, etc (although I wonder if Ork Power Klaws will get a similar treatment considering Klaws on a Nob have always been more effective than a PF on some lowly Assault Marine Sergent)

Why couldn't they have just made an Errata?

*sigh* one more thing to give Space Marines an advantage over chaos during the Konor campaign.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Why couldn't they have just made an Errata?

*sigh* one more thing to give Space Marines an advantage over chaos during the Konor campaign.

If you have 10 fists in your list, the advantage will be a mere 80 points. It's not, necessarily, game changing.

That's a whole extra squad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's a whole extra squad.

Yeah, is like, 25 conscripts!

 Galas wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's a whole extra squad.

Yeah, is like, 25 conscripts!

Or five scouts with sniper rifles, and another five points to upgrade somewhere else. Or a tactical squad with a plasmagun and storm bolter. Or a captain with a power axe or powersword+stormbolter. Or an extra Rhino to transport your guys, plus eight points spare. Or a barebones assault marine jumppack squad. Or etc etc etc.

This is al, assuming that someone was already taking 10 power fists and now has spare points to spend elsewhere. Personally I'd be happy with a SM opponent spending those points putting power fists on weak sergeant models in shooty squads, just means fewer lascannons pointing my way.

dosiere wrote:
This is al, assuming that someone was already taking 10 power fists

Players using terminators are taking multitudes of each of the weapons that got reduced cost.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

So, wait, are they now 12?

A SM captain pays just 2 more points for a PF than a guardsman?

Yeah, this really looks like an improvement in balance.

It's really weird, since the whole point of doing weapons and units separately in this incredibly clunky way was to make global changes to avoid this exact issue.

If they're just going to do piecemeal changes by codex anyway, it invalidates this entire page flipping mess of excessive cross-referencing.

sossen wrote:
They didn't reduce the price of chainfists, still at 22. Why would you ever take them now?

Chainfists have better AP and more consistent damage. Whether that's worth 10 more points than a standard Power Fist is debateable.

I'm just happy that PF's and TH's don't cost the same on non-characters anymore, that was just weird.

"Do you want to do D3 damage or 3 damage?"
"Hmm, let me think..."

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Justice for power fists! Reduced in cost 8 points! Good thing they were balanced at 20 points right guys?

So, wait, are they now 12?

A SM captain pays just 2 more points for a PF than a guardsman?

Yeah, this really looks like an improvement in balance.

I"m sure they'll be cheaper in your codex. After using them on old models, they are NOT worth 20 pts in 8th. Not even close.

Then they are not worth 20pts in the Indices either.

if they are changing generic weapon costs they need to do it for all armies - not just the Chosen Codex blessed. Hopefully they will errate it for all Power Fist users? sadly thats no longer an option for Sisters but it needs to be updated for all Marines, Chaos Mariens, Inquistors, Guard etc.I

Voss wrote:

It's really weird, since the whole point of doing weapons and units separately in this incredibly clunky way was to make global changes to avoid this exact issue.

If they're just going to do piecemeal changes by codex anyway, it invalidates this entire page flipping mess of excessive cross-referencing.

This is absolutely true. These point cost should be on the internet and periodically revised for all the armies.

 Crimson wrote:

Voss wrote:

It's really weird, since the whole point of doing weapons and units separately in this incredibly clunky way was to make global changes to avoid this exact issue.

If they're just going to do piecemeal changes by codex anyway, it invalidates this entire page flipping mess of excessive cross-referencing.

This is absolutely true. These point cost should be on the internet and periodically revised for all the armies.

They are going to get periodically revised. We're less than 2 months in. And I do believe GW has said points will be made available.

Fists are good on HQ characters that usually have a good WS. My ork Nobz are in a wierd spot though.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Fists are good on HQ characters that usually have a good WS. My ork Nobz are in a wierd spot though.

I still end up taking them on CC Boyz.

For Nob squads, why? MANz do it better, if only for a 2+ and extra wound.

 Purifier wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
there is no more instant death

Thank frickity-frack knick-knack for that. That one rule made every Skitarii into chicken meat. It was a rule that almost didn't affect most armies at all, and completely screwed a few.

Tyranid warriors se daylight for the first time since 4th edition. If it follows this pattern it will be the only edition we see them until 16th edition. :-)