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Powerfists are fine most of the time, in my experience of the game thus far. The issue with the -1 to hit only really comes to the fore when you get one-Attack grunts with the option for powerfists (Assault Marine Eviscerators, Grey Knight Daemonhammers, Space Wolf/Black Templar 'hidden' powerfists...), Terminators can power past it with 2A/model and powerfists everywhere.

The issue is in mandatory powerfists on Terminators (who would all be much happier if they could get power swords more generally and be 37pts/model the way Wolf Guard and Chaos Terminators can). Let the Terminators be cheaper and have the option to upgrade, and you don't end up wanting to make a generalist squad and getting forced to pump eighty points into melee upgrades you don't actually want.

Now that a sergeant/champaign/squad leader can't be specifically taken out for being the closest model, and can hide in the unit until it's fully wiped out, you have a lot more turns of that powerfist swinging, so you end up getting more mileage out of it than before.
Also, while an average unit of 5 dudes using D1 weapons with 1 attack each, fighting a unit of 2 wound models, can theoretically only take out 2 guys, the added powerfist allows the unit to theoretically kill 4 guys. In my case, at the cost of 1 Plague Marine for double the damage potential, it seems like a pretty epic deal.

Question that nobody seems to have brought up yet:
Why would I ever possibly take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer? It's costed identically and gets 3 automatic damage instead of D3.

Everyone seems to be saying that Power Fists are more efficient on high-attack models, but they seem to be forgetting that almost all of those high-attack models have access to the Thunder Hammer. Sure, on those characters it gets a nominal price bump, but that price bump means you will always get 3 damage, and that kind of reliability is a MASSIVE boon - You will never have to cross your fingers against 2w and 3w models. (Because lemme tell you, few things are as regularly frustrating as rolling 1 damage on a 2w model, then rolling 3 damage and overkilling it.)

Also: Someone mentioned earlier that Repentia Eviscerators were cheaper, but they seemed to have not realized that Repentia Eviscerators have half the AP of the real deal and do 2 damage instead of d3, so...

Waaaghpower wrote:
Question that nobody seems to have brought up yet:
Why would I ever possibly take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer? It's costed identically and gets 3 automatic damage instead of D3.

Because GW know you either will not swap them (thus having frustrating games and be tempted to buy new models), or will convert them, thus having to buy new models.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Question that nobody seems to have brought up yet:
Why would I ever possibly take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer? It's costed identically and gets 3 automatic damage instead of D3.

Everyone seems to be saying that Power Fists are more efficient on high-attack models, but they seem to be forgetting that almost all of those high-attack models have access to the Thunder Hammer. Sure, on those characters it gets a nominal price bump, but that price bump means you will always get 3 damage, and that kind of reliability is a MASSIVE boon - You will never have to cross your fingers against 2w and 3w models. (Because lemme tell you, few things are as regularly frustrating as rolling 1 damage on a 2w model, then rolling 3 damage and overkilling it.)

Yeah, this bugs me. I love power fists, but there is really no reason to give one to anyone who could have thunder hammer instead. (THs are cool too, but both weapons should have their strengths, maybe TH should have worse AP in exchange of having better damage or something like that...)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Question that nobody seems to have brought up yet:
Why would I ever possibly take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer? It's costed identically and gets 3 automatic damage instead of D3.

Because GW know you either will not swap them (thus having frustrating games and be tempted to buy new models), or will convert them, thus having to buy new models.

Or they cost the same, because a thunder hammer termie has no option for a storm bolter ? Sure, characters can take them, but they pay more and a single guy in a squad is hardly breaking the game.

For characters you do pay more, five points more, for a thunder hammer. It's otherwise a flat out upgrade.

That's the biggest issue with Power Fists for me. They should be five fewer points on non-Character models, so that there's actually at least some small reason to take them. Right now, Thunder Hammers are the same number of points for non-Character models, and they're better in every way. I hope the Codex fixes this issue.

Though at least for termie captains, pfist+WMGL is pretty cool.

I think they are fine the way they are, but then I am a Fluffy Power Level Player where the 'Rule of Cool Wins'

It also comes from decades of nostalgia, Sargent's should have Power Fist unless there is Fluff reasons why not.

Salamanders: Yes Thunder Hammers
My Home Brew chapter the Imperial Tigers: Lighting Claw, because tigers have claws.
Space Wolves: Frost Sword/Axe
Iron Fist: Power Fist to represent Cyber Arms.

No other reason needed in my opinion.

The ironic thing about the last post is that Powerlevel actually encourages thunder hammers even more than points.

 Melissia wrote:
The ironic thing about the last post is that Powerlevel actually encourages thunder hammers even more than points.

Power level encourages everything to be upgraded...

Can anyone with imperium 1 see if this is a footnote and where it is?

 Melissia wrote:
Though at least for termie captains, pfist+WMGL is pretty cool.

And JuggerLord is still PF + LC. (Perhaps my view of Power Fists is skewed due to the fact that PFs are great on almost all Chaos models that can take it)

Daedalus81 wrote:
Can anyone with imperium 1 see if this is a footnote and where it is?

Yes. The footnote says SternVet Sarge can't take it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The ironic thing about the last post is that Powerlevel actually encourages thunder hammers even more than points.

Power level encourages everything to be upgraded...

Can anyone with imperium 1 see if this is a footnote and where it is?

Not available to Sternguard.

Which is so nonsensical, niche, and unhelpful that it isn't actually in the digital copy, so it may not even be there.

Yeah that might as well be FAQed out. It's pointless and unnecessary.

Who would even give sternvets melee weapons anyway? That's what vanvets are for.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah that might as well be FAQed out. It's pointless and unnecessary.

Who would even give sternvets melee weapons anyway? That's what vanvets are for.

Because sometimes you need to punch a tank to death?

I have a sternguard sarge with a fist, because he’s old, metal, and cool looking. I hate spending the points on him. But there were times in the last edition where after combat squadding and having the squad blow their combis and get savaged by return fire, he survived and staggered over to a tank and punched it out.

Might not be as relevant in 8th, but he’ll be harder to single out, and actually has 3 attacks base.

Fair, I was more making a joke, but it wasn't obvious.

 Melissia wrote:
Fair, I was more making a joke, but it wasn't obvious.

8th has me re-thinking a lot of my old habits.

In 7th, you couldn’t rapid fire then charge. And you wanted to be shooting that sweet special ammo at things. So the CC toy was mostly a waste. And you wanted to keep the bolter, so never got the extra attack. And only had 2 base.

But now? You can charge, even something other then the thing you just shot. And the sarge has one more attack. And you strike first if charging. I’m thinking it might be viable to give a choppy weapon to the sternguard sarge. The rest of the squad might be swinging with rifle butts and harsh language, but they are still vets with 2A each. I think my sternguard are going to get mixed up in some melee more then they used to. Soften them up with shooting, and mop up the survivors.

On topic, I do wish they had added the character/other price split to more things then just the TH. It is a bit odd they they cost the same some of the time, but one is clearly better. Barring aesthetic choices, there is no reason to take a fist on non character platforms if you have the option for the TH.

I am liking using power fists on my Lord, also with a combi-melta he is pretty brutal.

If it seems like something is being made worse than other things, then it is probably to force you to buy the better thing. Pendulum swings the other way. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


So to answer your question: to sell toys.

 Just Tony wrote:
If it seems like something is being made worse than other things, then it is probably to force you to buy the better thing. Pendulum swings the other way. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


So to answer your question: to sell toys.

Yes, GW priced the PF the same as a weapon similar to it to force you to buy more thunder hammers.

And they changed the rules for multi meltas to make people buy more of those, but they raised the points so we don't buy too many!!

Oh those clever GW sales people. Instead of making a whole unit better they made one weapon better to increase sales. It's genius!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If it seems like something is being made worse than other things, then it is probably to force you to buy the better thing. Pendulum swings the other way. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


So to answer your question: to sell toys.

Yes, GW priced the PF the same as a weapon similar to it to force you to buy more thunder hammers.

And they changed the rules for multi meltas to make people buy more of those, but they raised the points so we don't buy too many!!

Oh those clever GW sales people. Instead of making a whole unit better they made one weapon better to increase sales. It's genius!

Oh dear. They took the Vanguard kit and made the weapon they ship it with four of better than the one they ship it with one of just to sell more models. Genius plan, that.

Ah ha! How clever of them! Surely they could have made the choice even easier for us?

The future of the company relies on people being concerned about D3 over 3 damage. Come on GW!

Why I'll even bet they'll increase the cost of thunder hammers later and call it "balance" to force everyone to change weapons again! LOL!!!!

We're so smart to be able to see through the ruse so I'll screw GW by keeping my PF on, because I'm two steps ahead!

^Or just hang on to your models for a few more years. I have 14 Lascannon Space Marines that are amazing now.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, this bugs me. I love power fists, but there is really no reason to give one to anyone who could have thunder hammer instead. (THs are cool too, but both weapons should have their strengths, maybe TH should have worse AP in exchange of having better damage or something like that...)

Alternatively, it could be 1 damage normally but 3 against vehicles?

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If it seems like something is being made worse than other things, then it is probably to force you to buy the better thing. Pendulum swings the other way. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


So to answer your question: to sell toys.

Yes, GW priced the PF the same as a weapon similar to it to force you to buy more thunder hammers.

And they changed the rules for multi meltas to make people buy more of those, but they raised the points so we don't buy too many!!

Oh those clever GW sales people. Instead of making a whole unit better they made one weapon better to increase sales. It's genius!

AnomanderRake wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If it seems like something is being made worse than other things, then it is probably to force you to buy the better thing. Pendulum swings the other way. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


So to answer your question: to sell toys.

Yes, GW priced the PF the same as a weapon similar to it to force you to buy more thunder hammers.

And they changed the rules for multi meltas to make people buy more of those, but they raised the points so we don't buy too many!!

Oh those clever GW sales people. Instead of making a whole unit better they made one weapon better to increase sales. It's genius!

Oh dear. They took the Vanguard kit and made the weapon they ship it with four of better than the one they ship it with one of just to sell more models. Genius plan, that.

Daedalus81 wrote:Ah ha! How clever of them! Surely they could have made the choice even easier for us?

The future of the company relies on people being concerned about D3 over 3 damage. Come on GW!

Why I'll even bet they'll increase the cost of thunder hammers later and call it "balance" to force everyone to change weapons again! LOL!!!!

We're so smart to be able to see through the ruse so I'll screw GW by keeping my PF on, because I'm two steps ahead!

Don't be obtuse, it's no different than when the rules changed to make shooting better than melee, or to make the new hotness grossly imbalanced over the last default choice. This happens every edition change.

 Just Tony wrote:


Don't be obtuse, it's no different than when the rules changed to make shooting better than melee, or to make the new hotness grossly imbalanced over the last default choice. This happens every edition change.

Laughable.

Any goon can throw darts at a board and claim it was for profits. The really pathetic thing is the attempts at arguing both sides of the coin. Points went up? To make people buy the other things! Points went down? To make people buy that thing!

Transports got better - to sell more transports!
Transports went up in points - to sell more...wait...

So you found one spot where the model didn't work, congratulations.

Did you play during 3rd? Terminator armor rules were given an errata in White Dwarf, adding a 5+ invulnerable save, simply because nobody was playing (fluff speak for buying) Terminators. In both WFB and 40K there have been pendulum shifts simply because one type of model wasn't selling compared to others, the pathetic part is being blind to it.

 Just Tony wrote:
So you found one spot where the model didn't work, congratulations.

Did you play during 3rd? Terminator armor rules were given an errata in White Dwarf, adding a 5+ invulnerable save, simply because nobody was playing (fluff speak for buying) Terminators. In both WFB and 40K there have been pendulum shifts simply because one type of model wasn't selling compared to others, the pathetic part is being blind to it.

So they can never, ever buff something if people don't find it useful. Got it.

When you can literally claim any action as a cynical sales maneuver you've painted yourself into an ideological corner. In any case i'll stop contributing to the derailment of the thread.

The best way to make sales is balance and you can see dozens of kits sold out right now including land raiders, rhinos, etc. If they miss a weapon by a handful of points it's hardly a call to action before or after it gets fixed.