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Easy E wrote: Great so let's pretend they are all psychopaths and irrational. Where does that really leave you as a strategy? It leaves you at a dead end, over and over and over again.
That is a terrible strategy, no it is worse than terrible because there is no strategy. Hope is not a strategy.
Besides, we have seen time and time again that NK is a rational actor. They understand brinkmanship diplomacy and MAD very well, perhaps better than the U.S. They have had defacto MAD in place in the Korean Pennisula since the 50's.
The only reason you would choose to assume they are irrational is because you have all ready chosen destruction as the only solution. If that is the case, just come out and say it and stop wasting everyone's time in this thread and then go sign-up to do your part.
I think most are recommending the existing strategy (which Trump is fyi) not destruction. What's your play?
Containment with a healthy dose of ignoring them for the most part.
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easysauce wrote: Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.
No, it doesn't. Holy f^cking sh^t words actually fething mean things.
Yes... words do indeed mean things, you resorting to foul, rude, and insulting language and tone says more about you then it does about me or my assertion that Kim is crazy.
There is this "crazy" thing called reality, in it words have definitions which don't bend whichever way you in the (current year) want them to bend.
cra·zy
ˈkrāzē/
informal
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest
1.
mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
*edited for punctuation
Perhaps you could demonstrate in which way the NK regime could be called crazy. Note that brutal, inhumane, barbaric behaviour is not crazy. It's disturbing, it's deplorable, and it's despicable, but it's not crazy.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
easysauce wrote: Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.
No, it doesn't. Holy f^cking sh^t words actually fething mean things.
Yes... words do indeed mean things, you resorting to foul, rude, and insulting language and tone says more about you then it does about me or my assertion that Kim is crazy.
There is this "crazy" thing called reality, in it words have definitions which don't bend whichever way you in the (current year) want them to bend.
cra·zy
ˈkrāzē/
informal
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest
1.
mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
*edited for punctuation
Perhaps you could demonstrate in which way the NK regime could be called crazy. Note that brutal, inhumane, barbaric behaviour is not crazy. It's disturbing, it's deplorable, and it's despicable, but it's not crazy.
Paranoid... Cruel. Believes his own kook aid.
Cult leading dictator, had his own brother killed.
Even of not crazy. We ain't short of charecter flaws.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
easysauce wrote: Actually, when you feed people to dogs and force your own people into slavery, yeah that fits the bill for crazy, it takes a lot of squinting and half truths to even try to state otherwise.
No, it doesn't. Holy f^cking sh^t words actually fething mean things.
Yes... words do indeed mean things, you resorting to foul, rude, and insulting language and tone says more about you then it does about me or my assertion that Kim is crazy.
There is this "crazy" thing called reality, in it words have definitions which don't bend whichever way you in the (current year) want them to bend.
cra·zy
ˈkrāzē/
informal
adjective
adjective: crazy; comparative adjective: crazier; superlative adjective: craziest
1.
mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.
*edited for punctuation
Perhaps you could demonstrate in which way the NK regime could be called crazy. Note that brutal, inhumane, barbaric behaviour is not crazy. It's disturbing, it's deplorable, and it's despicable, but it's not crazy.
Paranoid... Cruel. Believes his own kook aid.
Cult leading dictator, had his own brother killed.
Even of not crazy. We ain't short of charecter flaws.
Right, no one is saying the whole rotten regime isn't evil. But they aren't crazy.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Perhaps you could demonstrate in which way the NK regime could be called crazy. Note that brutal, inhumane, barbaric behaviour is not crazy. It's disturbing, it's deplorable, and it's despicable, but it's not crazy.
Already listed the definition of crazy, and Kim has fulfilled those requirements, if you cannot see this that just shows how far off your moral compass must be. That you hand waive away things already listed for Kim fitting the definition in your post with a " Muh classic signs of being crazy are not classic signs of being crazy" is another example of someone bending a definition when it suits them.
Here is another great word for kim : "psychopathic" 1. a mental disorder in which an individual manifests amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.
Even here, he also shows examples of this kind of behavior with the killing of family through unnecessarily brutal and creative ways, extreme ego, and failure to learn from the past Kim's.
You seem to think that crazy/psychopathic people cannot also be cold, calculating, intelligent, goal driven, effective in achieving those goals, ect, which is veritably untrue and extremely naive.
Perhaps you could demonstrate in which way the NK regime could be called crazy. Note that brutal, inhumane, barbaric behaviour is not crazy. It's disturbing, it's deplorable, and it's despicable, but it's not crazy.
Already listed the definition of crazy, and Kim has fulfilled those requirements, if you cannot see this that just shows how far off your moral compass must be. That you hand waive away things already listed for Kim fitting the definition in your post with a " Muh classic signs of being crazy are not classic signs of being crazy" is another example of someone bending a definition when it suits them.
Here is another great word for kim : "psychopathic" 1. a mental disorder in which an individual manifests amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.
Even here, he also shows examples of this kind of behavior with the killing of family through unnecessarily brutal and creative ways, extreme ego, and failure to learn from the past Kim's.
You seem to think that crazy/psychopathic people cannot also be cold, calculating, intelligent, goal driven, effective in achieving those goals, ect, which is veritably untrue and extremely naive.
Gotcha. You can't adequately demonstrate that the NK regime is crazy, apart from repeating the simplistic "evil=crazy" line, and resort to juvenile attacks on my character. Class act.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
You seem to think that crazy/psychopathic people cannot also be cold, calculating, intelligent, goal driven, effective in achieving those goals, ect, which is veritably untrue and extremely naive.
And besides the point. What you posted makes him the opposite of 'crazy'. Mental disorder does not mean crazy in the sense that people are talking about.
Easy E wrote: Great so let's pretend they are all psychopaths and irrational. Where does that really leave you as a strategy? It leaves you at a dead end, over and over and over again.
That is a terrible strategy, no it is worse than terrible because there is no strategy. Hope is not a strategy.
Besides, we have seen time and time again that NK is a rational actor. They understand brinkmanship diplomacy and MAD very well, perhaps better than the U.S. They have had defacto MAD in place in the Korean Pennisula since the 50's.
The only reason you would choose to assume they are irrational is because you have all ready chosen destruction as the only solution. If that is the case, just come out and say it and stop wasting everyone's time in this thread and then go sign-up to do your part.
I think most are recommending the existing strategy (which Trump is fyi) not destruction. What's your play?
Containment with a healthy dose of ignoring them for the most part.
I am down with that. We tried constructive engagement in the past and will again in the future. For the life of me I don't see why they don't go the China/Vietnam route and get filthy rich.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Dreadwinter wrote: Actually, showing a distinct lack of empathy towards your fellow man is a very troubling thing. It is a sign of deep rooted mental health issues.
But yes, you are right. Words do mean things. But that is about the only thing you are right about here.
It is simply not useful to go around calling every brutal tyrant crazy, and assuming them to all be erratic lunatics that cannot possibly be trusted on to do anything reasonable, even if it is in their own interest. al-Assad has done abhorrent things while in power, but to assume he was crazy and therefore incapable of balancing the tightrope act needed to fight a civil war dependent on foreign aid would be completely wrong.
And that's what this discussion is. Whether we go with the simple but stupid narrative that the NK leadership is provoking more powerful countries, therefore they're crazy and therefore they're erratic and must be killed, or whether we actually spend just a few minutes learning about the power dynamics that cause a country like NK to play brinkmanship with more powerful countries.
Did anybody say that they could not be trusted to do reasonable things in their own interest? A crazy person can do just that, but guess what, they are still mentally ill.
Regardless of what you say, Kim shows signs of mental illness and being "crazy." That is a fact, you cannot dispute that. I don't really give a damn about your this or that argument you have going on. What I do care about is you attempting to hand wave away this issue just because you are trying to push your own view. Accept it and move on.
Scrabb wrote: I remember watching a North Korean refugee's testimony of how she believed the great leader could read her mind. Because that's what she was told.
The man who perpetuates that environment.... it's creepy.
You know what's really funny? Communism/Socialism is directly responsible for this. How many off the rails regimes like this come from red roots? Far too many, from what I can gather. That's why I really laugh when people suggest giving NK other people's money to alleviate the situation. Other people's money is what got them here.
Spetulhu wrote: But from the POV of those more powerful countries, especially the regular joe who just knows of the power (and little else), it would indeed seem crazy to provoke someone so powerful.
For people in the West who see a tiny, backward nation making those provocations, I understand why their first thought it that they must be crazy. That's fine. It's when they see an explanation pointing out what is actually going on, and then keep believing the crazy explanation that it gets frustrating.
Personally I find your "criminal protection racket" to be a very good way of describing the NK leadership and elite.
For what it's worth, it isn't my description. It's how a fair few experts have described the NK leadership in various articles and radio interviews I've read and listened to.
Feeding people to dogs, well, wasn't that mostly rumors through Chinese newspapers?
Yeah, when I read it I half-remembered that one being untrue, but decided it didn't matter because the regime has done plenty of abhorrent things so the overall truth of that point was fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote: He, s a genuine phycopath.
Not much else to say.
There's a lot to say if you want to have a useful and constructive discussion on how to stabilise and then resolve the NK issue.
Of course, that's a lot more work than just saying 'he's crazy' and pretending that's a useful insight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
easysauce wrote: Yes... words do indeed mean things, you resorting to foul, rude, and insulting language and tone says more about you then it does about me or my assertion that Kim is crazy.
Oh look, moralism about language. Good job. Great contribution.
There is this "crazy" thing called reality, in it words have definitions which don't bend whichever way you in the (current year) want them to bend.
And now you're posting dictionary definitions, and not even noticing that your dictionary definition doesn't even touch on your earlier argument that NK's craziness is proven by their brutal executions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote: Even of not crazy. We ain't short of charecter flaws.
Yes, but exactly which character flaws there are matter, because it decides how we need to react.
If NK were genuinely crazy, and actually wanted to build a bomb to attack their enemies and end the world in a blaze of nuclear hellfire, then the only option would be to attack as soon as possible and prevent them, no matter the cost.
But NK isn't actually crazy in that way, and saying so just makes the whole conversation about NK dumber and less constructive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadwinter wrote: Did anybody say that they could not be trusted to do reasonable things in their own interest? A crazy person can do just that, but guess what, they are still mentally ill.
When a person says "NK are crazy" they do not mean "NK does awful, psychopathic things but can be trusted to do reasonable things in their own self interest". That's an absurd position you've backed yourself in to. I would stop trying to dig deeper, if I were you.
Regardless of what you say, Kim shows signs of mental illness and being "crazy." That is a fact, you cannot dispute that. I don't really give a damn about your this or that argument you have going on. What I do care about is you attempting to hand wave away this issue just because you are trying to push your own view. Accept it and move on.
I state that any attempt to use 'crazy' in this thread and any similar discussion has been used to describe Kim and the greater NK leadership as erratic and unable to rely on for a deal. That you and others have attempted to expand 'crazy' out to include all possible mental health issues is disingenuous and more than a little lame.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/09/28 03:13:04
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
North Korean leadership definitely isn't crazy. Evil as all hell, but definitely not crazy.
Evil does sometimes go with crazy, but it isn't necessary.
Hitler was both crazy and evil. Stalin was just evil. Kim and the North Korean government are just evil.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Scrabb wrote: I remember watching a North Korean refugee's testimony of how she believed the great leader could read her mind. Because that's what she was told.
The man who perpetuates that environment.... it's creepy.
You know what's really funny? Communism/Socialism is directly responsible for this. How many off the rails regimes like this come from red roots? Far too many, from what I can gather. That's why I really laugh when people suggest giving NK other people's money to alleviate the situation. Other people's money is what got them here.
Ehhh, NK has more ideological roots in Japanese fascism, but it's a moot point at this stage.
Scrabb wrote: I remember watching a North Korean refugee's testimony of how she believed the great leader could read her mind. Because that's what she was told.
The man who perpetuates that environment.... it's creepy.
You know what's really funny? Communism/Socialism is directly responsible for this. How many off the rails regimes like this come from red roots? Far too many, from what I can gather. That's why I really laugh when people suggest giving NK other people's money to alleviate the situation. Other people's money is what got them here.
Ehhh, NK has more ideological roots in Japanese fascism, but it's a moot point at this stage.
What? You dont know that north korea fought japan in ww2? And then got supported by china and soviet union in the korean war for being fellow commies?
Scrabb wrote: I remember watching a North Korean refugee's testimony of how she believed the great leader could read her mind. Because that's what she was told.
The man who perpetuates that environment.... it's creepy.
You know what's really funny? Communism/Socialism is directly responsible for this. How many off the rails regimes like this come from red roots? Far too many, from what I can gather. That's why I really laugh when people suggest giving NK other people's money to alleviate the situation. Other people's money is what got them here.
Ehhh, NK has more ideological roots in Japanese fascism, but it's a moot point at this stage.
What? You dont know that north korea fought japan in ww2? And then got supported by china and soviet union in the korean war for being fellow commies?
Yes NK undoubtedly sided with the USSR and China politicly, but I was talking more about their ideology and it's roots. Brian Reynolds Myers has an interesting book/lecture where he talks about it and he links it to Japanese fascism, which got transplanted into Korea during the occupation by the Japanese. The lecture can be found for free on google if you are interested.
Okey, i was thinking more about having collective farming and everything being state owned and that kind of stuff, its what i think about when hearing the word communism but ok you mean something else then me.
ulgurstasta wrote: Yes NK undoubtedly sided with the USSR and China politicly, but I was talking more about their ideology and it's roots. Brian Reynolds Myers has an interesting book/lecture where he talks about it and he links it to Japanese fascism, which got transplanted into Korea during the occupation by the Japanese. The lecture can be found for free on google if you are interested.
Oh man, I remember that from when it was released but had completely forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder. Its a fascinating argument made in the book, if perhaps not a complete one (just judging from reviews, both the book and the counter argument seem to assume NK ideology is a single, consistent thing, when it's likely evolved over time).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/28 07:40:02
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Dreadwinter wrote: Did anybody say that they could not be trusted to do reasonable things in their own interest? A crazy person can do just that, but guess what, they are still mentally ill.
When a person says "NK are crazy" they do not mean "NK does awful, psychopathic things but can be trusted to do reasonable things in their own self interest". That's an absurd position you've backed yourself in to. I would stop trying to dig deeper, if I were you.
Regardless of what you say, Kim shows signs of mental illness and being "crazy." That is a fact, you cannot dispute that. I don't really give a damn about your this or that argument you have going on. What I do care about is you attempting to hand wave away this issue just because you are trying to push your own view. Accept it and move on.
I state that any attempt to use 'crazy' in this thread and any similar discussion has been used to describe Kim and the greater NK leadership as erratic and unable to rely on for a deal. That you and others have attempted to expand 'crazy' out to include all possible mental health issues is disingenuous and more than a little lame.
I am sorry, words have meaning. The meaning of crazy is pretty well defined. I apologize that you do not like the meaning of the word, but you cannot change it to fit your argument.
I would stop if I were you. You have contradicted yourself here and it is just painful to see.
Actually "crazy" has far too many generalised connotations and definitions to too many people to be worth anything. Now, there are many, many defined types of mental instability and psychosis that all have proper definitions and applications, but using "crazy" as a catch all is redundant and meaningless.
China has told North Korean companies operating in its territory to close down as it implements United Nations sanctions against the reclusive state.
The companies will be shut by early January. Joint Chinese and North Korean ventures will also be forced to close.
China, Pyongyang's only major ally, has already banned textile trade and limited oil exports.
The move is part of an international response to North Korea's sixth and most powerful nuclear test.
The UN Security Council, of which China is a member, voted unanimously for fresh sanctions on 11 September.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually "crazy" has far too many generalised connotations and definitions to too many people to be worth anything. Now, there are many, many defined types of mental instability and psychosis that all have proper definitions and applications, but using "crazy" as a catch all is redundant and meaningless.
This is true.
I suppose you might say Kim is crazy in the sense that he is an egomaniac, and likely a sociopath. But when I hear the word "crazy", I tend to think of it more in the sense of someone gibbering about how the squirrels are plotting to steal his underwear. Not someone who has a skewed moral code.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually "crazy" has far too many generalised connotations and definitions to too many people to be worth anything. Now, there are many, many defined types of mental instability and psychosis that all have proper definitions and applications, but using "crazy" as a catch all is redundant and meaningless.
This is true.
I suppose you might say Kim is crazy in the sense that he is an egomaniac, and likely a sociopath. But when I hear the word "crazy", I tend to think of it more in the sense of someone gibbering about how the squirrels are plotting to steal his underwear. Not someone who has a skewed moral code.
Why do you apply it to one mental illness but not the other?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Actually "crazy" has far too many generalised connotations and definitions to too many people to be worth anything. Now, there are many, many defined types of mental instability and psychosis that all have proper definitions and applications, but using "crazy" as a catch all is redundant and meaningless.
This is true.
I suppose you might say Kim is crazy in the sense that he is an egomaniac, and likely a sociopath. But when I hear the word "crazy", I tend to think of it more in the sense of someone gibbering about how the squirrels are plotting to steal his underwear. Not someone who has a skewed moral code.
Why do you apply it to one mental illness but not the other?
Because when I think of crazy, I think of a total departure from rational thinking. Sociopaths are still rational actors.
Mental Illness has a whole lot more to it than simply departure from rational thinking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/28 16:08:27
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Thing is, Kim most likely does not suffer any form of mental illness or psychosis. What everyone seems to neglect to remember is that he was a child of power brought up in that regime. With a father who probably told him constantly that all you survey is yours to do with as you like and all those dirty westerners are nothing but the enemy. He most probably wanted for nothing and has never had anyone tell him no. and on top of that, constant, false adoration of every person in his country. If you want a complex to apply, it's going to be superiority because it's most likely all he has ever known.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/28 16:21:04
China has told North Korean companies operating in its territory to close down as it implements United Nations sanctions against the reclusive state.
The companies will be shut by early January. Joint Chinese and North Korean ventures will also be forced to close.
China, Pyongyang's only major ally, has already banned textile trade and limited oil exports.
The move is part of an international response to North Korea's sixth and most powerful nuclear test.
The UN Security Council, of which China is a member, voted unanimously for fresh sanctions on 11 September.
That's a big deal.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Thing is, Kim most likely does not suffer any form of mental illness or psychosis. What everyone seems to neglect to remember is that he was a child of power brought up in that regime. With a father who probably told him constantly that all you survey is yours to do with as you like and all those dirty westerners are nothing but the enemy. He most probably wanted for nothing and has never had anyone tell him no. and on top of that, constant, false adoration of every person in his country. If you want a complex to apply, it's going to be superiority because it's most likely all he has ever known.
He does not exhibit the traits of a superiority complex. He exhibits traits of an inferiority complex.
Seriously, we really need to start teaching people about mental illness because this last page has proven that people know jack gak about it.
