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Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




France

 Selym wrote:


Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.


wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?

I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.


if the offer is good enough maybe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 13:41:02


 
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs geedubs geedubs geedubs


 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs

 General Orange wrote:
geedubs geedubs


Edgy.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






I like this edition sorry but the problems are minor at best and since codex for any army are not out yet i think calm down a little plus the index's have created a balanced game so sorry but get a grip. Think of it this way when was the last time gaurd could fight necrons, eldar and tau without getting hammered with no way of victory lol.
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 General Orange wrote:
wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ?

> Someone disagrees with me
> Their argument is automatically wrong
> Nobody could really disagree with me
> Must be an idea filter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exalted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 15:33:14


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I spent six months collecting, building and painting a Death Guard Vectorium (using Traitor Legions formation), imagine how bummed I was with the Index.

However - codices are coming. And they are indicating they are willing to rebalance if units are under/over powered.

Patience is needed. (Much).

   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Man, this is a thread.

I'm still greenstuffing armor plates for my scions. I didn't buy dozer blades because they came with all my vehicles, and I didn't ever use them when they were an option. I greenstuffed bigger grenades for my sergeants that didn't look like actual meltabombs, but they were close enough. I'm still stomping Space Marines because everything got so cheap and because AP -2 is basically a standard issue small arm.

I'm sad to see carapace armor and camo cloaks gone. The modelling I've done to represent the stuff I've done isn't wasted, because it makes my army look more flavorful and interesting than just more Cadians. And you really don't NEED carapace armor nowadays. At least not like you did before. You had to take it to give yourself a save against bolters. Sure it improved your save also, but you went from no save to 4+ save for points. Now you're going from no save to 5+ save for free, armywide. IG got tremendously buffed by the new edition in just about any way you can name more than most other armies.

What exactly is your issue with Primaris? That they're sneaking in a scale change disguised as a new unit? They've been scale creeping space marines for decades now. This is just the most overt one and the first time I'm aware of that they've done it in rules. I guess maybe that's something, but it doesn't really affect me. I've got some SM, but I'm totes happy with saying "oh yeah, they're all primaris" if I want to play primaris. It's a game of mandollies. No reason to get worked up about it.

And for the record, everyone got hit with the lack of options. I can't feel nearly as bad for IG players as I do for inquisition players. The running hope is that all the cool little stuff might come back in the codex. No one knows what those will look like until the first couple drop.

The baneblade/leman russ thing doesn't make a lot of sense, but I kinda feel like they tried to go with balance over common sense, particularly when you look at some of the other over simplified things like terrain and the like. It was kind of inevitable that they gave the Russ SOMETHING anyway, because when you normalize baneblades, the Russ quickly becomes overlooked (Like it is, even now). If anything, the superheavies needed more drawbacks, but I'm okay with it, because I like my top tier Stormlord.

I feel like you seem very angry. Maybe you should relax a little. Maybe take a walk and go bird watching for a while or something.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 General Orange wrote:
 Selym wrote:


Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.


wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?

I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.


if the offer is good enough maybe.


So you're happy with your index, but you're mad because 6th and 7th guard wasn't very good...but now that it is good, you're complaining about losing options...except that you gained options because previously bad units are good... my head is spinning here.

Are you mad because your guard army contains nothing but camo netting/dozer blade wyverns? Leman Russ Vanquishers? Because those are pretty much the only vehicles that aren't stronger now than they used to be. I am sorry that we lost a couple kitbash-only options for vehicles and veterans. Maybe you can take your pains-takingly converted carapace veterans and run them as Militarum Tempestus, where they have the same options and perform better than carapace vets ever did. And maybe you could take your camo vets and run them as Cult Ambushing Neophytes, where they have the same options and perform better than camo vets ever did. If you're willing to put in the hours to make the model fit the rules, why not put in the minutes to make the rules fit the model?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

The only post in this thread that meme works for is the very first post.

 
   
Made in ca
Yellin' Yoof





 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
I'm enjoying this. All over the place, people bitching about 8th. You go into the 30K part, people bitching about how 30K stayed 7th. Tau suck, Eldar Suck, IG suck, everything sucks.

It's like, everyone just likes to bitch.

And nobody bitches more than people bitching about the bitchers.


I don't know. The people bitching about the people bitching about the bitchers are really strong this year. I think you guys might have the edge!


We need to go deeper!

BITCHCEPTION

BRAAAAAAAAMMM!!!
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







RULE #1 - BE POLITE.

RULE #2 - STAY ON TOPIC.

RULE #3 - NO SPAM.

I see all three taking a beating in this thread.

IF you don't have something constructive to add, NOT posting is a SOLID option.
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




France

the_scotsman wrote:
 General Orange wrote:
 Selym wrote:


Oh for Emprar's sake. You make ME look like an optimist, and that really takes some doing. You're really going to complain that underpowered units were made useful? What on earth makes you think that that is a bad thing? Every new edition has its ups and downs, and 8e is undeniably the most balanced edition for decades.

This has nothing to do with little timmy's space marines.

This has nothing to do with trying to screw the guard.

This has everything to do with EVERYONE being in the same damn boat beta testing a radically new edition that has not yet settled.


wow does dakka dakka has some dort of idea filter ? I am not complaining about how underpowered unit got, thank god, useful, it's how geedubs made them intentionally bad for whole editions and then made them good. Was there a guy at geedubs who said "yeah this all great and that but we need to make them bad" see RR, ogryns, bullgryns, ratlings. Did they finally change some more competent staff ?


I am happy with my index, but feels like 6th and 7th edition got totally wasted with bad units in general without any apparent reasons since they made the effort of actually improving this damn game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ross-128 wrote:
If you're leaving, can I have your models?

The indexes in general are almost entirely bereft of wargear, so every army has a laundry list of options that they hope the codex will bring back. Except the Necrons, who are just like "what are options?"

But even without those, IG is on the strongest footing it's been on since 5th. Especially with Forge World giving them access to full re-roll bubbles, +1 to hit bubbles, and knockoff markerlights.


if the offer is good enough maybe.


So you're happy with your index, but you're mad because 6th and 7th guard wasn't very good...but now that it is good, you're complaining about losing options...except that you gained options because previously bad units are good... my head is spinning here.

Are you mad because your guard army contains nothing but camo netting/dozer blade wyverns? Leman Russ Vanquishers? Because those are pretty much the only vehicles that aren't stronger now than they used to be. I am sorry that we lost a couple kitbash-only options for vehicles and veterans. Maybe you can take your pains-takingly converted carapace veterans and run them as Militarum Tempestus, where they have the same options and perform better than carapace vets ever did. And maybe you could take your camo vets and run them as Cult Ambushing Neophytes, where they have the same options and perform better than camo vets ever did. If you're willing to put in the hours to make the model fit the rules, why not put in the minutes to make the rules fit the model?



I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?


Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

In my humble opinion, the IG index list is actually a pretty flawed work. I think it masks it by having a handful of overtly and easily broken units that all work together really well, namely the conscripts & friends, scions, superheavies, and artillery. Big chunks of the book are much more questionable in terms of balance, but what's good in the list is really, really good.

Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor. Yes, blob platoons would have been brutal with commissars... but that just means conscripts do the same thing in practice!

The orders system is finally simple and elegant, but they really aren't all that strong, with Get Back in the Fight and FRF/SRF the only ones that significantly add punch to you army.

don't get me wrong, I'm still happy with streamlined 40k, and since I had painted up a bunch of kasrkin this spring, I'm loving using them as scions. I just don't think the index list was particularly inspired.
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




France

 Desubot wrote:
 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?


Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.



well bad seems like the wrong term here, but choices like -1 to hit on baneblades, -1 to hit on mobile units like chimeras ,tauroxes, valks, sentinels lost outflank, no orders for auxilia etc... . But yeah, the guard index is more or less blessed with good units, only frustrates me that they needed aons to improve units from any army, it's like they only send half of the playtest results to the rule making department and call it a day. Rough riders waited editions to become useful for example and it only needed a special rule to make them useful, a few words, but noooo it is to much to ask geedubs to think rationally
This edition is same now globally with any army and with any precedent edition, it's like they don't want to make good armies with good rules, they balance by nerfing specific units and not globally, always on the look for another martyr like the battle sisters since they came out. It's like they force bad mechanics, and I don't know why they do this. Why remove weapon angles ? Did it take them to much ink to write it down ?
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 General Orange wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
 General Orange wrote:


I'm complaining on geedubs randomnes in making unit rules change without any justification. Good stuff became bad, and bad stuff became good arbitrarily. Do they have to respect some quotes on bad unit rules ? Do 300 units out of 1000 have to be bad just because they feel like it ?


Seems like perfectly good justification to nerf good things and buff bad things until it meets in the middle.

besides how "bad" are we talking. asides from like a few % difference in output nothing iv seen is straight up a dumpster fire besides like maybe 1-2 things.



well bad seems like the wrong term here, but choices like -1 to hit on baneblades, -1 to hit on mobile units like chimeras ,tauroxes, valks, sentinels lost outflank, no orders for auxilia etc... . But yeah, the guard index is more or less blessed with good units, only frustrates me that they needed aons to improve units from any army, it's like they only send half of the playtest results to the rule making department and call it a day. Rough riders waited editions to become useful for example and it only needed a special rule to make them useful, a few words, but noooo it is to much to ask geedubs to think rationally
This edition is same now globally with any army and with any precedent edition, it's like they don't want to make good armies with good rules, they balance by nerfing specific units and not globally, always on the look for another martyr like the battle sisters since they came out. It's like they force bad mechanics, and I don't know why they do this. Why remove weapon angles ? Did it take them to much ink to write it down ?


The -1 to hit for moving happend to everyone

everyone besides some very relic level things like land raiders which already cost an arm and a leg.

predators, rhinos, assbacks all suffer -1 to hit when moving. making it a a choice to move or not.

im really not understanding your position. like whats so bad about RR, what did you want them to add?

Nerfing an army globally doesnt fix anything especially if internally their army isnt balanced. it makes good things bad and bad things worse.

weapon angles going away is kinda meh but it speeds up the game. the game is already an abstraction.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Sedona, Arizona

Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

For those not in thek now, 3rd edition was a similar (but honestly larger) reboot from 2nd edition. Instead of indexes (because there were less armies and models - though some of both were squatted) the army info was in the back of the BRB itself.. And holy moly was it barebones. As basic as you can imagine, in an age where things were generally pretty basic to begin with!

The current indexes are temporary, there's no reason to blow up over details lost. Furthermore, they're very far from 'as bad as it can get' judging by history.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.

For those not in thek now, 3rd edition was a similar (but honestly larger) reboot from 2nd edition. Instead of indexes (because there were less armies and models - though some of both were squatted) the army info was in the back of the BRB itself.. And holy moly was it barebones. As basic as you can imagine, in an age where things were generally pretty basic to begin with!

The current indexes are temporary, there's no reason to blow up over details lost. Furthermore, they're very far from 'as bad as it can get' judging by history.


I think I still own one somewhere, if I recall weren't almost all the weapons for all the factions based on imperial equipment? Even for alien races like eldar? That was also back when the dark eldar looked nothing like their current incarnation if I recall.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 General Orange wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 General Orange wrote:
TonyL707 wrote:
 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.


Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!


Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?


Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?


You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?


What game makes every single unit usable and/or perfect the first time around? Because I seriously would love to know the answer to this.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.


Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.

   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




France

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 General Orange wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 General Orange wrote:
TonyL707 wrote:
 General Orange wrote:

I don't ignore the new benefits we got, it pisses me off how geedubs does it everytime to improve sales by giving unsold models great rules. Bullgryns for example overcosted assault unit in 7th, now good option out of the blue. Or ratlings, rough riders.


Did you really just complain that some of your previously useless units got better?!


Hmm, baffles me, can't you understand a simple phrase ? I complain how geedubs does it everytime. New models comes out with bad rules, nobody gonna buy them, geedubs sees this, and decides to buff them with formation and/or new edition because of the money, or bad rule making.

Don't think I don't appreciate the new units, but it sure is to sell more. Question is why didn't they make actual good rules in the first place ?


Because not every unit is going to end up well enough, but the idea is your complaining because they buffed a bad unit because they should've been perfect the first time. What?


You know this isn't poilitcs geedubs does here, why is it too much asked for to have decent rules, giving rough riders scout in 7th was too much to ask for ? Did they had a shortage of ink to write "scout " or "outflank" ? A unit should not be perfect, you don't get the point, why does it it take geedubs several editions to make a decent unit while other tabletops only need one shot ?


What game makes every single unit usable and/or perfect the first time around? Because I seriously would love to know the answer to this.


X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 morganfreeman wrote:
Does anyone in this thread have a 3rd edition BRB laying around?

I do. I got into 40k shortly at 3rd edition launched, when several armies were still playing out of the BRB.


Yup. Amazingly, the spine isn't even cracked and the pages are still attached! I never laid it flat.

BRB 3E was the best 40k rules + armies - simple and balanced.

Anyhow, getting back to the OP, I've spent what I've spent, so all of my toys are sunk cost, whether I play them or shelve them. Units being shelved isn't anything new.

It's almost too bad that Codices are coming to wreck 8E.


Well, the new codices might actually alleviate the issue the OP has, so that is one pro. The other being the indices for some armies are frightfully boring. Most armies imo, I'm looking forward to expanded options.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Polonius wrote:


Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor.

Forgeworld used to do shotgun vets and voystroyans do not wear carapace. (they're all chest armour and shoulder pads - carapace models have armour on the arms and thighs)
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets






X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?
...Really not even close, hoo boy. Get into competitive and you'll realize just how many useless options and ships there are in existence.

But yes I know GW (really, geedubs?) isn't the only tabletop out there, because I've played a fair few and wonder what systems have actually managed to attain 100% "All these units are usable no matter the situation". I'm just curious what Tabletop game you've played where every single unit has been perfectly balanced. Malifax? Warmahordes? Infinity? Flames of War? Heroclix? Battletech? Imperial Assault?

Now what Tabletop game has near 100% unit parity when it comes to balance I wonder.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Canada

It's not really all that bad. Squads now get buffed by things like Commissar auras so you don't need them to be combined (in fact they'll take less casualties overall this way), the only downside being that you won't have 30 ablative wounds for your special weps and heavy weps

RE Vets, just go through the forums to see how universally crapped on all the doctrines were at one point or another. By the end of 7th carapace armor was the only good one, which means that Scions are a perfectly good stand in.

So many other units got better/playable now due to the overall rules shifts. A few units got nerfed but on balance we're a lot better off than the last edition.

On paper I can't think of any unit I don't like other than Ogryns and Bullgryns, which were always bad since the 3rd edition came out (should have gone up to 5 wounds considering their cost but hey, that's why we're waiting for the Codex to come out!)


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?
...Really not even close, hoo boy. Get into competitive and you'll realize just how many useless options and ships there are in existence.

But yes I know GW (really, geedubs?) isn't the only tabletop out there, because I've played a fair few and wonder what systems have actually managed to attain 100% "All these units are usable no matter the situation". I'm just curious what Tabletop game you've played where every single unit has been perfectly balanced. Malifax? Warmahordes? Infinity? Flames of War? Heroclix? Battletech? Imperial Assault?

Now what Tabletop game has near 100% unit parity when it comes to balance I wonder.


Chess, though it does still struggle to deal with balancing first-turn advantage.

Now, I will say this: there's nothing wrong with wanting more balance or trying to figure out a way to get it. But raging, making I Quit threads, railing against Bush 43, or standing on the street corner with "THE END IS NIGH" scrawled on a piece of cardboard won't go anywhere productive. Though that last option might get you some pocket change from passing pedestrians.

Theorycraft, brainstorm, propose tweaks, sure. Just do so in a calm, thoughtful manner and keep in mind that nobody is necessarily obligated to agree. And in the meantime, make the best of what you've got.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 General Orange wrote:

X wing from what I have played. Test of honour is pretty balanced with good units overall too,but yeah only from what I experienced, but hey, geedubs isn't the only tabletop out there right ?


The starter for X wing was pretty lopsided toward the Imperials from what I recall from a few years ago. The FoW one was too, though I can't remember in which direction as that was even further back. Warmachine was just silly as far as the balance between starters went. I don't think I saw the Cygnar one lose in the four games we played between different people and swapping sides around each time. I never went far beyond the starters in any of those because my group couldn't get past the painful one-sdiedness of the armies out of the gate.

On the other hand, Malifaux seemed really genuinely good (and fun) when I played it last Gencon. I'd love to get into that, but I barely have time to keep up with different games as is. Infinity is strong too, but the guys I know that play it tell me it's because what happens on the table is far more complex and important than what you make your list out of, so there's more focus on your actions and less on your composition.

That's been about my experience with miniature games. All things considered, if I could do it again, I probably would have gone with Malifaux, but I'm still pretty happy here with 8th, all things considered.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Sedona, Arizona

SilverAlien wrote:


I think I still own one somewhere, if I recall weren't almost all the weapons for all the factions based on imperial equipment? Even for alien races like eldar? That was also back when the dark eldar looked nothing like their current incarnation if I recall.


Yup. Eldar, dark and otherwise, had lascannons, chainswords, and plasma guns. Orks had missle launchers (I think?), chainswords, and powerfists. The Chaos 'army list' was literally copy > pasting the marine list, adding a unit of demons, and then 1 cult marine for each god.

Also, let us none forget the horror of old school stealers. WS6, str 4, I6, 3 attacks, ignore all armor saves period, rolling 6 on armor penetration scored an immediate penetrating hit on vehicles.

   
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Scott-S6 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:


Also, some of the options that were left out are odd, especially when you realize what was kept. For example, veterans can take shotguns, despite never being a model option on any kit. However, Vostroyans are still sold clearly wearing carapace armor.

Forgeworld used to do shotgun vets and voystroyans do not wear carapace. (they're all chest armour and shoulder pads - carapace models have armour on the arms and thighs)


Forgeworld options are usually in the forgeworld book though, right? If there were rules for shotgun vets in the FW index, I'd be down, but putting them in the main index, but not, say, the Vendetta? That's just odd.

The Vostroyans might not wear a complete suit of carapace, but their armor is clearly closer to carapace than to flak armor. Outside of Stormtroopers, few models in the IG range have more than the breastplate, even when positively identified as wearing carapace armor (col Shaffer, kell, creed, yarrik) They also had carapace armor as the suggested doctrines when they came out, back when you could buy carapace for a full army.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Far as shotguns go, there was that one old Cadian fat sergeant model with the shotgun.

Unfortunately, I struggle to find a picture at this time.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 daedalus wrote:
Far as shotguns go, there was that one old Cadian fat sergeant model with the shotgun.

Unfortunately, I struggle to find a picture at this time.


Yeah, that was a great model. Lower right hand corner:



I mean, back in the day you could take shotguns instead of CCW/LP on your sergeants, I now that was a keenly felt loss at one point.
   
 
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