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I'm looking forward to my DG getting their own codex.

Until then I like how easy it is to combine Daemons and CSM (again) as well as FW. I have three different psychic disciplines to choose from, which all seem to be good. The whole change to the psi-phase makes me want to use much more psykers.

Oh, and Combi-/Twin-Weapons. Man, I feel like a Tau this edition Lord on Bike with Combibolter? Rhino with two Combibolters + havoc launcher? Rapier batteries throwing out 36shots/turn?

My Death Korps infantry doesn't cost 40% more than comparable guardsmen while only being slightly better and lacking good options anymore, and with infantry dying less, I can actually use them.

I can more easily benefit from other buffs

My Field and Heavy Artillery units are no longer broken OP, although some of them should see some rebalance (both increased and lowered costs, depending on the unit).

 Gamgee wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Commander spam is good relatively speaking.

The tau meta where I am playing is definately shaping up to be Commanders supported by more Commanders

Well everything else we have is way too expensive. Big surprise. Even commander spam lists can be taken down it's not like some god tier tournament winning list once people find how to counter it. Jeez Tau are in such a bad spot right now. I just want the Tau army to be mid-tier so I can play my list without getting tabled or resorting to commander spam to have any chance to win.

You claimed you were undefeated in 7th, and you could never get a game because people thought you would always win. Isn't it better to have an army you can actually play with now?

 Vector Strike wrote:
T'au

But that name is the big loser. Why in a three letter word did they feel the need to cram in an apostrophe? Now I can only read it as "Tuh-Au."

Footslogging ork boyz are finally playable. Ghazzy is great. I can finally run my favorite unit - kommandoes - and actually get some mileage out of them other than camping points in cover.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Commander spam is good relatively speaking.

The tau meta where I am playing is definately shaping up to be Commanders supported by more Commanders

Well everything else we have is way too expensive. Big surprise. Even commander spam lists can be taken down it's not like some god tier tournament winning list once people find how to counter it. Jeez Tau are in such a bad spot right now. I just want the Tau army to be mid-tier so I can play my list without getting tabled or resorting to commander spam to have any chance to win.

You claimed you were undefeated in 7th, and you could never get a game because people thought you would always win. Isn't it better to have an army you can actually play with now?

Undefeated since my first game where I lost yes, but I also said the players in question were casuals that lost to vespids and kroot and heavy rail rifle broadsides in 7th edition and would almost never try kill my markerlights. Now that I can play at my local the competition is much stronger and the meta even "casual" is very competitive. Also I said for a long time I wanted Tau to be brought down to mid tier not destroyed and kicked down the bottom tier. I didn't want any army to have that fate. I want them all to be mid tier. Space marines were top tier in 7th edition and they are once again crushing it. I see no one rushing to nerf them like the Tau despite the fact that the Tau were not even top tier merely above average.

 Purifier wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
T'au

But that name is the big loser. Why in a three letter word did they feel the need to cram in an apostrophe? Now I can only read it as "Tuh-Au."

T'au is not new, though. It has always(?) been the word for their homeworld and their largest Sept. Though I must admit I find it strange they took that name now for the whole empire, when it had a more specified meaning. It's like taking [terra] instead of [imperium].

I can field my beloved Windriders again without being TFG.

I have several armies, but I've mostly been playing Dark Eldar in 8th and they're fantastic!

Power from Pain is great! My "feel no pain" doesn't get ignored by every heavy weapon in the game and starts on turn 1!

Scourges with Blasters are just amazing with their deep strike ability.

Mandrakes kick so much butt!

My basic units and transports are all useful and combat drugs don't have to be random.

I'm really enjoying it.

 Purifier wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
T'au

But that name is the big loser. Why in a three letter word did they feel the need to cram in an apostrophe? Now I can only read it as "Tuh-Au."

Because GW can't go Tau™, but it can go T'au™!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Commander spam is good relatively speaking.

The tau meta where I am playing is definately shaping up to be Commanders supported by more Commanders

Well everything else we have is way too expensive. Big surprise. Even commander spam lists can be taken down it's not like some god tier tournament winning list once people find how to counter it. Jeez Tau are in such a bad spot right now. I just want the Tau army to be mid-tier so I can play my list without getting tabled or resorting to commander spam to have any chance to win.

I'm trying to word this carefully, as I'm not having a dig at you personally....

But given how ridiculous Tau were in 8th Ed, could their current lacklustre showings be more down to a player base with a higher-than-average number of people who never really learned the finer points of winning a game, instead relying on stupidly cheap, stupidly good stuff?

I'd also suggest the reverse is true, and that's why we're seeing IG and Nids being resurgent. Those who stuck to their armies doggedly through thick and thin are more likely to know how to squeeze the most out of their force. Now things are a bit more balanced, previously desperate tactics are paying off handsomely.

This. This times 100.


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 Galef wrote:
I can field my beloved Windriders again without being TFG.

Well, shuricannon bikes are undercosted, imo, but not into TFG territory. The shuricannon bikes should be around 40 pts I think.


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 Gamgee wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Commander spam is good relatively speaking.

The tau meta where I am playing is definately shaping up to be Commanders supported by more Commanders

Well everything else we have is way too expensive. Big surprise. Even commander spam lists can be taken down it's not like some god tier tournament winning list once people find how to counter it. Jeez Tau are in such a bad spot right now. I just want the Tau army to be mid-tier so I can play my list without getting tabled or resorting to commander spam to have any chance to win.

You claimed you were undefeated in 7th, and you could never get a game because people thought you would always win. Isn't it better to have an army you can actually play with now?

Undefeated since my first game where I lost yes, but I also said the players in question were casuals that lost to vespids and kroot and heavy rail rifle broadsides in 7th edition and would almost never try kill my markerlights. Now that I can play at my local the competition is much stronger and the meta even "casual" is very competitive. Also I said for a long time I wanted Tau to be brought down to mid tier not destroyed and kicked down the bottom tier. I didn't want any army to have that fate. I want them all to be mid tier. Space marines were top tier in 7th edition and they are once again crushing it. I see no one rushing to nerf them like the Tau despite the fact that the Tau were not even top tier merely above average.

Tau were the lowest top tier list. They were also the ultimate bully list. No invisible super friends deaths star? Tau table you. Every time, mercilessly.

ResistTheDawn wrote:
I've been browsing the forums for a couple of weeks and man, is there a lot of moaning, despite this easily being the best ruleset for 40k in ages, so I thought I'd get a nice, positive thread going. What about your army is great in this edition?

Only a few people now call Eldar OP, compared to the justified majority of the last two editions.

And... erm...

That's pretty much it until the codex drop for CWE.

Just something I'm noticing in this thread about Tau players....

Firewarriors are 8 points a model, let that sink in, and they get a 30 inch range, strength 5, rapid fire weapon. (S5 is a HUGE deal now, that wounds knights on a 5+, so also let that sink in....)

The "Elite" of the Tau army should never have been the core of the army, which is why so many Tau players are struggling now. Add in the fact that ethereals and Cadres add to volume of fire, vehicles are substantially tougher, and that overwatch sharing is still a thing you have an extremely tough core unit.

But no one played firewarriors in forever so now Tau "suck" lol. You know, maybe an army should be more then just spamming of a beatstick unit? Maybe you should have layers of support and strategy instead of just shooting people off the table with broken formations and under-costed super robots?

I don't think any of the basic Blood Angel units are all that good but the unique characters seem pretty strong, particularily Lemartes and Mephiston.

DC are cheap effective antihorde.

Troupes are faster, much more durable than they used to be back in 7th, and put out an absurd amount of damage now. They straight-up delete the majority of MEQ squads I charge them into. Also, Fusion Pistols are actually worth taking, so that's a thing.

Voidweavers have had a huge buff and are now a genuinely useful gunboat that offers far more than any comparable vehicle for it's price. They're a big winner here given how bad they were in 7th.

The Solitaire is, IMO, a contender for being the most cost-effective character in the entire game.

Played first game of 8th this weekend and ran Dark Angels with a mixed wing list - Deathwing Terminators are amazing now! First turn deepstrike/charge with no misshap, stormbolters get 4 shots within 12", power fists strike first!! so good

edit - and 2 wounds each and assault cannon has 6 shots

My Iyanden ghost warriors are extremely resilient, and add a wave serpent for mobility and they get better. However, even a foot slogging shield/axe unit w farseer and Fortune, plus a wraithknight in support is not easily wiped off the table.

Ravenwing are going to be more challenging I feel, but I'm really looking forward to the challenge.

Martel732 wrote:
DC are cheap effective antihorde.

I don't think they are effective antihorde compared to the options out there, or particularily cheap. A simple comparison could be made to AM heavy weapon squads with mortars. You get a mortar with 2 wounds for 9 pts, two of which cost less than what a DC marine with jump pack and chainsword costs. Two mortars put out 2D6 S4 AP0 attacks at 48'' (no LOS required) with 4+ to hit. A single DC marine puts out 2 bolter shots and 4 attacks when he charges for a total of 6 S4 AP0 attacks with 3+ to hit. Yet DC have to get into charge range - which is going to involve casualties before they ever get to attack properly - and then suffer reprisal both in the shape of the enemy melee hits and further ranged hits as the enemy unit can simply fall back without risk. A mortar team gets to shoot almost any target on the map from a relatively safe position and is probably just as survivable with 2x2 wounds for every single wound of a DC unit, even with lower T and save.

As for the multiple ways of buffing DC, most seem too expensive. You can give your unit AP (at the cost of an attack), an extra attack, reroll to hit or +1S but the overhead cost is too high for the added power. Lemartes helps the DC actually arrive in melee faster which is why he seems slightly better than the rest.

Khorne Berzerkers! I can finally play Khorne Berserkers! Now I can rhino rush multiple squads backed by DPs to the soft gooey center of my opponent's line and crash into them like a wood chipper on steroids.

 sfshilo wrote:
Just something I'm noticing in this thread about Tau players....

Firewarriors are 8 points a model, let that sink in, and they get a 30 inch range, strength 5, rapid fire weapon. (S5 is a HUGE deal now, that wounds knights on a 5+, so also let that sink in....)

The "Elite" of the Tau army should never have been the core of the army, which is why so many Tau players are struggling now. Add in the fact that ethereals and Cadres add to volume of fire, vehicles are substantially tougher, and that overwatch sharing is still a thing you have an extremely tough core unit.

But no one played firewarriors in forever so now Tau "suck" lol. You know, maybe an army should be more then just spamming of a beatstick unit? Maybe you should have layers of support and strategy instead of just shooting people off the table with broken formations and under-costed super robots?

And Breacher Teams. OMG...breacher teams.

Assault 2, S6, -2AP. Sure, it's from 5" away, but...ASSAULT 2, S6, -2AP!!!!!!1!11!11! Shove them into a devilfish and go marine-hunting! Oh, AND they can get a 5++ save on top of their 4+ for not a lot of points. And they're only 8 points each. Same price as firewarriors.


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And as for my army...

Necron CC doesn't suck in CC anymore, and necron vehicles aren't monolith or nothing. The Doomsday Arc is really, really good now and won't get blown off the table turn 1!

Quantum shields aren't a total joke!

Gauss spam is scary, and not strictly inferior to Tesla!

Sweeping advance doesn't exist anymore!

WBB isn't FNP under a different name.

The army actually feels really, really resilient, rather than just slightly more durable than marines for +3 points per model.

Flayed ones are scary!

Triarch Praetorians are worth taking! (they were before...but they're REALLY worth taking now)

 bullyboy wrote:
My Iyanden ghost warriors are extremely resilient, and add a wave serpent for mobility and they get better. However, even a foot slogging shield/axe unit w farseer and Fortune, plus a wraithknight in support is not easily wiped off the table.

Ravenwing are going to be more challenging I feel, but I'm really looking forward to the challenge.

What does your usual iyanden list look like?

sossen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are cheap effective antihorde.

I don't think they are effective antihorde compared to the options out there, or particularily cheap. A simple comparison could be made to AM heavy weapon squads with mortars. You get a mortar with 2 wounds for 9 pts, two of which cost less than what a DC marine with jump pack and chainsword costs. Two mortars put out 2D6 S4 AP0 attacks at 48'' (no LOS required) with 4+ to hit. A single DC marine puts out 2 bolter shots and 4 attacks when he charges for a total of 6 S4 AP0 attacks with 3+ to hit. Yet DC have to get into charge range - which is going to involve casualties before they ever get to attack properly - and then suffer reprisal both in the shape of the enemy melee hits and further ranged hits as the enemy unit can simply fall back without risk. A mortar team gets to shoot almost any target on the map from a relatively safe position and is probably just as survivable with 2x2 wounds for every single wound of a DC unit, even with lower T and save.

As for the multiple ways of buffing DC, most seem too expensive. You can give your unit AP (at the cost of an attack), an extra attack, reroll to hit or +1S but the overhead cost is too high for the added power. Lemartes helps the DC actually arrive in melee faster which is why he seems slightly better than the rest.

The DC get to kill on the other guy's turn, and can turn off shooting. They are more effective than mortars, imo. Power weapons are not too expensive. The overhead is not that high when you are giving two other units the same benefit.

It's still extremely early to be saying this, but I really enjoy 8th edition CSMs.

Mostly, it's nice using models that would not have made it into my lists in previous editions. CSMs, Predators, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and even Land Raiders have been working out well so far. Death to the False Emperor is a nice tactic in games where it counts, and I like the fact Warptime and Prescience are boons instead of benign attacks no one would ever use.

While I have gotten some of the rules wrong along the way, my MVPs have been the Kharbdis Assault Claw, Helbrutes and Laspreds. In general, I play lists geared towards picking off the power units in my opponents army early, and these units have been particularly good in that role. There have been several games where the KAC deep struck near a bunch of tanks and ate them up.

 sfshilo wrote:
The "Elite" of the Tau army should never have been the core of the army

I didn't want to discuss in this thread, but this line is quite wrong.

GW itself gave us the opportunity to play suits-only via Farsight Enclaves supplement. Then, formations comprised only by them.

It's very funny to see people saying 'Tau should have never been only suits!'. Well, I hope anyone saying that have the same argument vs Terminator-only armies, tank-only armies, Nidzillas and so on. After all, all they want is to spam stuff they like, right? So, why is Tau the wrong one doing it?
Formations and over-the-top rules were the problem, not Tau players wanting to use suits when the tools were given by the company selling them!

And, if you noticed my post, there are only 2 suits there: Commander and Y'vahra. The others got nerfed enough they aren't competitive - only really playable with niche configurations or in very casual games.

 sfshilo wrote:
Just something I'm noticing in this thread about Tau players....

Firewarriors are 8 points a model, let that sink in, and they get a 30 inch range, strength 5, rapid fire weapon. (S5 is a HUGE deal now, that wounds knights on a 5+, so also let that sink in....)

The "Elite" of the Tau army should never have been the core of the army, which is why so many Tau players are struggling now. Add in the fact that ethereals and Cadres add to volume of fire, vehicles are substantially tougher, and that overwatch sharing is still a thing you have an extremely tough core unit.

But no one played firewarriors in forever so now Tau "suck" lol. You know, maybe an army should be more then just spamming of a beatstick unit? Maybe you should have layers of support and strategy instead of just shooting people off the table with broken formations and under-costed super robots?

Ban all flyers. Ban all terminators. Ban all space marine only lists. Ban all lists of one model and type from EVERY army.

Why is it fair that the Tau are demonised for it? I play a FSE army and liked running lots of crisis suits. Or I would play regular Tau and use kroot and only one riptide or no riptide at all in the majority of my games. All I want is to be able to use one Riptide again in addition to all the other stuff, but instead all suits other than commander and Y'vahrah have been made terrible for the cost. Heck even Tau non-suit units aren't doing too great other than troops which are okay but nothing to write home about anymore.

Tau have to play one way, but everyone else can play how they want? Seems like one mighty fine double standard.

 Gamgee wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Just something I'm noticing in this thread about Tau players....

Firewarriors are 8 points a model, let that sink in, and they get a 30 inch range, strength 5, rapid fire weapon. (S5 is a HUGE deal now, that wounds knights on a 5+, so also let that sink in....)

The "Elite" of the Tau army should never have been the core of the army, which is why so many Tau players are struggling now. Add in the fact that ethereals and Cadres add to volume of fire, vehicles are substantially tougher, and that overwatch sharing is still a thing you have an extremely tough core unit.

But no one played firewarriors in forever so now Tau "suck" lol. You know, maybe an army should be more then just spamming of a beatstick unit? Maybe you should have layers of support and strategy instead of just shooting people off the table with broken formations and under-costed super robots?

Ban all flyers. Ban all terminators. Ban all space marine only lists. Ban all lists of one model and type from EVERY army.

Why is it fair that the Tau are demonised for it? I play a FSE army and liked running lots of crisis suits. Or I would play regular Tau and use kroot and only one riptide or no riptide at all in the majority of my games. All I want is to be able to use one Riptide again in addition to all the other stuff, but instead all suits other than commander and Y'vahrah have been made terrible for the cost. Heck even Tau non-suit units aren't doing too great other than troops which are okay but nothing to write home about anymore.

Tau have to play one way, but everyone else can play how they want? Seems like one mighty fine double standard.

It's fair because Tau are NOT being demonized for it.

Don't confuse demonization for ineffectiveness. The only thing you're being taken to task for is your refusal to adapt.

People have been analyzing the new edition, and it's evident that infantry are the new hotness in many cases. It's evident that the CORE TAU RULES don't intend for you to be effective by just spamming suits.

https://youtu.be/lkKwyjsJGxk?t=37

You're not the only faction who lost things in the translation from 7th to 8th. Maybe try something new?

Oh, and your troops are better than okay. They're straight-up amazing for their points. Tau have some of the best infantry in the game now.

The only thing they're missing is some kind of heavy weapons platform to shore up their ability to kill enemy vehicles. But I have no idea where they might find something like that. KAPPA

sossen wrote:
I don't think any of the basic Blood Angel units are all that good but the unique characters seem pretty strong, particularily Lemartes and Mephiston.

Define "basic blood angels units"? Because the "basic blood angel units" are the same as "basic space marine units", just with the potential to buff via blood angels characters. Even nameless BA characters like sang priests are bloody (heh) strong.

But if you mean BA-unique things like Death Company, you're dead-wrong. DC and DCDreads are super powerful right now for their cost.


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 Gamgee wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Just something I'm noticing in this thread about Tau players....[snip]

Ban[snip]

The post you mentioned didn't say "ban" anything. Your post is a strawman.

Yeah, but why would he be complaining if he liked tau suit heavy lists? He might not have wanted them banned, but he didn't exactly want them to stick around either or he wouldn't be so opposed to them.

So ban was a harsh word. I'll change it to oppose. More soft and nice I guess.

For the record I don't want any of this banned. I was merely showing the absurdity of hit post with satire which is all to often lost on dakka.

Also if other people have to adapt to not spamming then why are the top lists in both the ITC and ETC stormraven (space marine) flyer spam? It's crushing everything. Don't see anyone here complainging about that, but as soon as onen little Tau player says he wants to play a crisis suit list with XV8 and for it to be viable gak hits the fan. The Eldar had a similar problem last edition with bike armies that were fluffy being super good, but now our suits are terrible where as thier bikes are fine but not op.

There is a lot of double standards that went into this edition of Tau. I don't see it going away any time soon with these posts blatantly sticking their head in the ground and avoiding the pure simple fact that Tau are losing everywhere barring the occasional outier who never go into the details of just what the Tau player did to win or who his opponent was despite the tau are weak side providing plenty of evidence.

Saying "This isn't very fluffy" isn't the same as saying "I want this banned" and you know it. I don't even agree with him, but his post was hardly absurd. Certainly nowhere near as much as yours.


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 Gamgee wrote:
stormraven (space marine) flyer spam? It's crushing everything. Don't see anyone here complainging about that

1: If you haven't seen people complaining about it, then you haven't been paying attention.
2: It's a gimmick army that people expect TAC armies to find a counter to soon. It's expected to be no different than leafblower, that temporary fad by IG in fifth.