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SilverAlien wrote:

Maybe everything chapter tactics applies to in the codex gets a slightly point increase due to it.

Unlikely... It wouldn't be so bad CT-wise if everyone got a similarly useful thing for their army when their codex drops. But given that GW can't even sort out how cover works, I really doubt they are going to be able to quantitativley assess the impact of a CT and compare it with another CT to see if it's fair or not.

Gonna be something like UM's get a universally powerful buff, BA's get +1" charge, BT get +1" consolidation, WS get Biker troops, Salamanders get to re-roll 1's to hit with meltas...

Ratius wrote:Yes but every army has access to flyers and can adjust accordingly if they need be.
Granted conscripts are an outlier but still a singular unit that needs an order.

We're talking about an army-wide special rule that can applied to most units bar vehicles from what I've seen.

I wasn't aware Knights or Assassins had Flyers. I mean, sure, they could ally in another Imperial unit, but then I'm not playing Knights or Assassins.

Conscripts are just one unit that can be given an Order. Other examples include:
Most of the Astra Militarum army.

So long as there's an officer to give the Order, you can have a unit which ignores that "core ruleset" - which is "dangerous".

Why is the Ultramarine one necessarily worse, if it's the mere fact that it's a deviation from the core ruleset? After all, as you say, it's bad because it "sets a dangerous precedent" - not for another reason.

Mr Morden wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

I can understand the concern. Really, I can. But this is literally the first one we've seen

But it sets a dangerous precedent. And whilst it does have a downside i.e. a -1 it still goes against the core ruleset which is dangerous imo.

Don't models with Fly and Imperial Guard Conscripts possess this rule already(the latter via an Order)?

Yes but one assumes that the FLY units pay for it in their points cost, plus you do get bonuses to hit them with specific weapons.

Chapter Tactics are giving bonuses for Free with only a cosmetic downside, fair enough if everyone was getting them at the same time but they are not and some may never get them.

Either Marines were overcosted - which IMO is not the case or they are receiving unwaranted boosts that equally could have been paid for by pts changes or add ons.

Do you know if Space Marines are staying the same cost? I mean, all we've seen is one rule from the Codex. We have no idea if the Space Marines will receive a points increase when Chapters are actually given rules. Who knows - the version in the Index may be different to the ones in the Codex (wouldn't be the first time - many Primaris models have different points costs in different publications).

You're making assumptions without seeing the entire book. Unless you have, in which case I'd ask for more leaks.

Note that I'm not saying Ultramarines should have this. I personally believe that they should have a downside to this, as should any version of these rules. If they're going to have points costs attached, sure, no need to have a negative. However, if they're going to stay free, they should have a negative.
For example, give Ultramarines as above, but insert a rule that if an HQ model is slain, all Ultramarines units need to take a Morale Test at the end of the turn, unless they are within 6" of an HQ. If the Warlord is slain, the test is taken at a -1 Ld.

I don't know, that's drawn from the HH rules for Ultramarines, but something like that.

 Elbows wrote:
The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise), but I'm more curious about it having a weapon with "Macro" in the title...isn't that the Titan based weapon classification?

The Ultramarines chapter tactic is crap. Not overpowered necessarily, but it's showing that GW is back to it's normal practice:

Goal: Develop a unique, flavorful rule for X.

A: Unit X can re-roll ________.
B: Unit X ignores ________.

Choose one. So fething lazy.

Or a +X" buff.

Tbf, it'd be hard to give innovative rules that make sense for every army. Can't personally think of anything innovative and fluffy for BT, other than a +X" to charge or something. Maybe allow charging after running if you didn't shoot anything larger than a pistol.

Having to restrict a whole detachment to one subfaction is not a problem when you get three detachments and they can be structured very flexibly. Even if you design your detachments poorly it only means that you lose 1 CP. Hardly a big loss if you play UM and get 10 CP anyway thanks to Roboto Undercostedman.

sossen wrote:
Having to restrict a whole detachment to one subfaction is not a problem when you get three detachments and they can be structured very flexibly. Even if you design your detachments very poorly it only means that you lose 1 CP. Hardly a big loss if you play UM and get 10 CP anyway thanks to Roboto Undercostedman.

I can see GW going with that, where you get a sub/faction bonus only within a 100% <Keyword> detachment. They did that with Ynnari.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not the same - they have stated that factions and Subfactions that actually get Codexes will also get "Chapter Tactics" -

probably , eventually.

Chapter Tactics is a straight bonus.

The Marine equivalent of those things is ATSKNF, unless you feel that Marines are overcosted currently?

You do not know whether marines get a point increase in the codex, or whether the index prices already take into account the chapter tactics. Either of those could be true.

Also, we really don't know what form the faction rules for other armies will take. Different IG regiment for example could get different orders (that's already what FW did with theirs) and different forgeworlds could get different canticles etc.

(*Though they gave Elysians deep strike on top of that. Now that's a free bonus rule!)

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not the same - they have stated that factions and Subfactions that actually get Codexes will also get "Chapter Tactics" -

probably , eventually.

Chapter Tactics is a straight bonus.

The Marine equivalent of those things is ATSKNF, unless you feel that Marines are overcosted currently?

You do not know whether marines get a point increase in the codex, or whether the index prices already take into account the chapter tactics. Either of those could be true.

Also, we really don't know what form the faction rules for other armies will take. Different IG regiment for example could get different orders (that's already what FW did with theirs) and different forgeworlds could get different canticles etc.

(*Though they gave Elysians deep strike on top of that. Now that's a free bonus rule!)

I feel that marines seem to be costed ok without CT - what do you think?

Agreed if they get a pts increase in the new Codex that would be fair (same with future releases of course for other factions)

I have not got the FW Indexes - still considering it - bit disapointed that they seem to have so many errors :(

Do Elysians have any addiitonal restricitons - if not then yes that sounds like they should have paid for the upgrade.

sossen wrote:
Having to restrict a whole detachment to one subfaction is not a problem when you get three detachments and they can be structured very flexibly. Even if you design your detachments poorly it only means that you lose 1 CP. Hardly a big loss if you play UM and get 10 CP anyway thanks to Roboto Undercostedman.

There's also the possibility it will be an army-wide requirement like Canticles of the Omnissiah.

And if it is detachment-specific, the more non-CHAPTER models that are brought along in other detachments mean less models to take advantage of the Chapter Tactics.

verticalgain wrote:

sossen wrote:
Having to restrict a whole detachment to one subfaction is not a problem when you get three detachments and they can be structured very flexibly. Even if you design your detachments poorly it only means that you lose 1 CP. Hardly a big loss if you play UM and get 10 CP anyway thanks to Roboto Undercostedman.

There's also the possibility it will be an army-wide requirement like Canticles of the Omnissiah.

And if it is detachment-specific, the more non-CHAPTER models that are brought along in other detachments mean less models to take advantage of the Chapter Tactics.

Will depend on the other CT's as well I think - if you have say Chapter tactics: <Iron Hands> giving Vehicles a boost then you might have you infantry detachment being UM and your Vehicles IH etc?

Canticles is Detachment not army - you get the benefitsonly if all in specific detachment have it?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Yes but every army has access to flyers and can adjust accordingly if they need be.
Granted conscripts are an outlier but still a singular unit that needs an order.

We're talking about an army-wide special rule that can applied to most units bar vehicles from what I've seen.

It's also on Superheavies and their equivalents like Knights and Stormsurges. Some others like Baneblade variants and the Lord of Skulls can actually fire while in combat as long as they're only fighting Infantry keyworded stuff.

Darkstrider lets friendly T'au Sept units within 6" of him fire even if they fell back.
Ooh! Forgot about Gorkanauts and Morkanauts. They get to do the same, and Stompas can even Fall Back over enemy Infantry units and then shoot normal.

So yeah, it's a Core rule that you can't shoot when Falling Back...but it's also something that even with the Index lists has seen it being ignored.

You left out the harlequins! Which every unit in the codex can not only move out of combat and shot with no penalties - but also assault even after advancing. Honestly This Ultra marines doctirine is really weak as an army wide rule in comparison. Considering the only other army wide rule marines come with is ATSKNF - which is truly an afterthought - just about every army is ignoring leadership entirely in this edition.

Why is the Ultramarine one necessarily worse, if it's the mere fact that it's a deviation from the core ruleset? After all, as you say, it's bad because it "sets a dangerous precedent" - not for another reason.

As I said I dont think the UM rule is necessarily OTT or broken (until we see it tested etc). My point is that the rule confers a free army-wide bonus which is blatantly outside of those core rules.
As Morden has pointed out, other units PAY for that ability or to "unlock" it one must have an officer or a special character or what not.
UMs dont - they simply show, up, place their army down and get the rule.

I dont want to get bogged down in the idea of the rule, merely that if GW continue to give armies army-wide bonuses that are outside the core ruleset, 8th will end up in a very bad shape. YMMV but thats my opinion
Would people be happy if Nid units ignored the d6 advance rule and instead got a flat 6" "free" advance?
Would people be happy if Nightlords got a special "can hide rule" where their vehicles get cover even if not 50% obscured?
Would people be happy if DE got an army wide rule where units cannot fall back from combat with them ala their Wyches rule?
Etc etc.

 Mr Morden wrote:


I feel that marines seem to be costed ok without CT - what do you think?

I really don't feel I have enough experience with the system to assess that fairly.

In any case, CTs are something marines are expected to have, so presumably GW has taken that into account when deciding the point costs, ether already in the index or in the codex. The balancing problems might ensue if some tactics will be wildly better than others. This is my fear, one tactic will be OP, and everyone have to play that regardless of the fluff of their chapter or gimp themselves for thematic reasons.

I have not got the FW Indexes - still considering it - bit disapointed that they seem to have so many errors :(

Do Elysians have any addiitonal restricitons - if not then yes that sounds like they should have paid for the upgrade.

No restrictions, except they cannot take all IG units. But being able to freely combine them with other regiments, it's really not a restriction, it just means there is a limit to units which can get free deep strike. But FW indexes are a mess, and hopefully things will be handled better in the future. At least in the GW indexes there seemed to be genuine attempt for balance, even if that didn't work out perfectly in all cases.

 Ratius wrote:

Why is the Ultramarine one necessarily worse, if it's the mere fact that it's a deviation from the core ruleset? After all, as you say, it's bad because it "sets a dangerous precedent" - not for another reason.

As I said I dont think the UM rule is necessarily OTT or broken (until we see it tested etc). My point is that the rule confers a free army-wide bonus which is blatantly outside of those core rules.
As Morden has pointed out, other units PAY for that ability or to "unlock" it one must have an officer or a special character or what not.
UMs dont - they simply show, up, place their army down and get the rule.

I dont want to get bogged down in the idea of the rule, merely that if GW continue to give armies army-wide bonuses that are outside the core ruleset, 8th will end up in a very bad shape. YMMV but thats my opinion
Would people be happy if Nid units ignored the d6 advance rule and instead got a flat 6" "free" advance?
Would people be happy if Nightlords got a special "can hide rule" where their vehicles get cover even if not 50% obscured?
Would people be happy if DE got an army wide rule where units cannot fall back from combat with them ala their Wyches rule?
Etc etc.

If it were costed appropriately and exclusive to certain Hive Fleets/Legions/Kabals, then sure? If they were balanced (internally and externally, and in cost/effect) and non-ubiquitous, I doubt I'd have a problem.

As I proposed to Morden, who says that UM won't be paying for it? We simply don't have that data.

Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

More likely than not, only units with the appropriate <Chapter> can get the special rule.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

No disagreement there. I'd love to see motivation for restricting oneself to a single army. Possibility for running allied things still being there for those that think it's worth the trade, I would really like to see pure armies make a resurgance.

Would be fine if it was a strategem that required a command point to use.

 Ratius wrote:

Why is the Ultramarine one necessarily worse, if it's the mere fact that it's a deviation from the core ruleset? After all, as you say, it's bad because it "sets a dangerous precedent" - not for another reason.

As I said I dont think the UM rule is necessarily OTT or broken (until we see it tested etc). My point is that the rule confers a free army-wide bonus which is blatantly outside of those core rules.
As Morden has pointed out, other units PAY for that ability or to "unlock" it one must have an officer or a special character or what not.
UMs dont - they simply show, up, place their army down and get the rule.

I dont want to get bogged down in the idea of the rule, merely that if GW continue to give armies army-wide bonuses that are outside the core ruleset, 8th will end up in a very bad shape. YMMV but thats my opinion
Would people be happy if Nid units ignored the d6 advance rule and instead got a flat 6" "free" advance?
Would people be happy if Nightlords got a special "can hide rule" where their vehicles get cover even if not 50% obscured?
Would people be happy if DE got an army wide rule where units cannot fall back from combat with them ala their Wyches rule?
Etc etc.

Um yeah I don't think people will care when specific sects of armies can do that.

You people need to chillax. Everyone is getting the same treatment of "Chapter Tactics". Just wait your turn is all. If the rules are this cool, my Skitarii, Necrons, and CSM/SM will be happy.

Plus they're listening to criticism (apparently) so if we think an army is underpowered in some aspect we can help. However, your constant whining, when we don't have an idea of the rules yet you proclaim Ultramarines are broken and ruin the game, is literally going to do no good. None.

 Galas wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
A shame they don't have some drawbacks to them, the new CT. But at least this time EVERYONE will have "chapter tactics" so it will be more balanced, instead of being just a flat-out bonus for the privilege of being a Space Marine.

They already do have a drawback. Suddenly assault based Ultramarines are not as efficient as another chapter, which will have assault specific tactics.

We also don't know what it will take to get these tactics. If they apply to a detachment, and that detachment must be entirely Ultramarines (highly likely), that will further limit their scope. Suddenly to get this buff you have to pick between that Vindicare assassin or the tactics (for example).

So, i think that's a bit premature. No free lunch, blah blah blah

Is that really a drawback if all ultramarine armies are gunlines with Roubote? I don't really like the army construction restrictions. If I want to make a full assault Khorne army and my Legion Tactic for World Eaters is "All your units gain +2 attacks but you can't take some shooting units" I'm really paying something for that free boost? I was planing to run that army anyway.

Your Krieg Army is inmune to morale but you can't take Ogryns. Well, no problem, I didn't planned to take that from the first place.

This x1000. It's the exact same problem I brought up in the chapter tactics thread from a few weeks ago.

If you're going to make a chapter codex that isn't just "vanilla space marines, BUT BETTER!" like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, any disadvantages you put in to offset the chapter advantages you give them need to be disadvantages that you will feel in game. Your advantage needs to make you feel like you chose this army for a reason and, similarly, any disadvantage needs to almost make you regret your decision. This preview "chapter tactic" is BS. It costs them nothing, and gives them a serious advantage. With this, Ultramarines will now be "vanilla marines", and actual vanilla marines will be something you take when you don't know any better.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

True, good catch. Applies only to unique Elysian datashhets and not to othe IG units that can be included.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

I really, really hope not. Limiting it to detachment is fine, and it would be silly if Ultramarines suddenly forgot their tactics if an Inquisitor and a squad of SoB were present.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You people need to chillax. Everyone is getting the same treatment of "Chapter Tactics". Just wait your turn is all. If the rules are this cool, my Skitarii, Necrons, and CSM/SM will be happy.

I hope so. If everyone gets powerful army-specific rules, then everyone usually has at least one way to win.

I just hope BA gets some good assaulty rules, and sisters get new units along with their probably revised (for the billionth time) acts of faith.

 Crimson wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

True, good catch. Applies only to unique Elysian datashhets and not to othe IG units that can be included.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

I really, really hope not. Limiting it to detachment is fine, and it would be silly if Ultramarines suddenly forgot their tactics if an Inquisitor and a squad of SoB were present.

Inquisitors could easily be an exception, together with assassins. I don't see why he'd need to bring SoB, though. They should be a part of their own distinct army with their own distinct bonuses.

 Arandmoor wrote:

This x1000. It's the exact same problem I brought up in the chapter tactics thread from a few weeks ago.

If you're going to make a chapter codex that isn't just "vanilla space marines, BUT BETTER!" like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, any disadvantages you put in to offset the chapter advantages you give them need to be disadvantages that you will feel in game. Your advantage needs to make you feel like you chose this army for a reason and, similarly, any disadvantage needs to almost make you regret your decision. This preview "chapter tactic" is BS. It costs them nothing, and gives them a serious advantage. With this, Ultramarines will now be "vanilla marines", and actual vanilla marines will be something you take when you don't know any better.

If they balance this properly (they probably won't but in theory), no one is 'vanilla but better', they're just different. Every chapter gets something, their 'disadvantage' is that they don't get the stuff other chapters get. Then the point cost takes that capability in account.

Okay. What will ultramarines lose to get this?

I actually don't mind ultramarines getting this as long as everyone ELSE-- including non-marine armies-- gets something equivalent. But I'm curious as to what you think they'd lose.

The Redemptor looks like a fat Tau.

The Ultramarines mechanic is game breaking. They get to fall back and gun down their opponent from close range. Great.

I say it's game breaking as I see it as a sign of things to come. Predicting this becomes a natural avenue for power creep that will continue to get worse as Codexes are released.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The Redemptor looks like a fat Tau.

The Ultramarines mechanic is game breaking. They get to fall back and gun down their opponent from close range. Great.

I say it's game breaking as I see it as a sign of things to come. Predicting this becomes a natural avenue for power creep that will continue to get worse as Codexes are released.

well hopefully (and I say that with a hopeful tilt to my voice) hopefully if this turns out to be broken, GW will be like "ok, let's try -2 to hit?" (which honestly I think would have been a better place to start.)

 Purifier wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Elysians do pay for their special rule -- all of their infantry costs 1 more point per model than regular Guard.

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

No disagreement there. I'd love to see motivation for restricting oneself to a single army. Possibility for running allied things still being there for those that think it's worth the trade, I would really like to see pure armies make a resurgance.

well, matched play already does that in that every unit in the army must share at least 1 keyword.
So no taudar, but you can still have a combined imperial force. Which is fine, because that's how it should be. Imperials should work together, and there's numerous examples of that in the fluff.

 Purifier wrote:

Inquisitors could easily be an exception, together with assassins. I don't see why he'd need to bring SoB, though.

In this case because the Inquisitor needed a troop choice for his patrol detachment..

They should be a part of their own distinct army with their own distinct bonuses.

Sure. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use them as allies.


I understand that a lot of people have some sort of PTSD about superfriend deathstars of previous editions, but due the keywords that gak is pretty much killed already, so I really don't see a reason to further limit allies. I really hate how this stuff works in AOS, making fun and varied armies is unnecessarily punished, I don't want to see that in 40K.

 Melissia wrote:
Okay. What will ultramarines lose to get this?

I actually don't mind ultramarines getting this as long as everyone ELSE-- including non-marine armies-- gets something equivalent. But I'm curious as to what you think they'd lose.

I for one was going to use Pedro as an alternate chapter master, as to not take Calgar.

But now I wont.

 Crimson wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

I'm really hoping that your whole army has to be <Chapter> in order to benefit from these. Detachments just aren't very limiting.

I really, really hope not. Limiting it to detachment is fine, and it would be silly if Ultramarines suddenly forgot their tactics if an Inquisitor and a squad of SoB were present.

It seems to me to be an important balancing mechanism. The indices have a problem where it's kind of dumb to be taking a pure Space Marines list, unless you're either spamming one thing that happens to be a Marine unit or you're planning on sitting everything within 6" of a buffing character. Both of these produce pretty bad games, but if you're doing anything else it almost certainly makes sense, from a competitive standpoint, for your Marine army to include quite a few non-Marine units. For example, many lists can almost certainly be improved by adding in some assassins or some ratlings or a single squad of Sisters to use an Act of Faith. But lots of players would like to just play <chapter> armies, or <regiment> armies, or whatever, and it would be nice if there were some compensating advantage for doing this. It would be nice if there was not just one big Imperium faction spanning four books. Like, yeah, there are a couple (generally very short-ranged) special rules that reward you for bringing multiple Marine units, but this is a bit like how Eldar have an HQ that buffs Howling Banshees. Despite this, Howling Banshees are not actually a real faction and GW presumably balances Eldar with the idea that people are going to be looking for synergies across the whole index.