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 Arachnofiend wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
4/8 top players are Eldar soup/Aeldari - clearly OP, must nerf!

3/8 top players are Imperial soup/SM - *whistles and walks away*

Makes you wonder about the motivations of some people...or I guess some people just like to complain in general.

People have been calling for Guard to be nerfed to the ground since the edition started so I have no idea what you're talking about.

...Did you miss the part where they actually did nerf the guard significantly? Repeatedly? (Besides, these are more SM-focused than Guard...which is why I said "soup/SM" and not "soup/IG")

Interestingly, you just demonstrated my point exactly - Ynnari also took a massive nerf (also called for over a long time), but you jumped to the defense suddenly of Imperium players...

Mchaagen wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I heard one of the top 8 players was DQd. Not sure why though.

It wasn't a DQ, Josh voluntarily stepped down from the finals because of an incorrect scoring issue during his game with Brad Chester, which instead jumped Brad in the top 8 from 32nd place.

If something that minor can propel a guy from 32nd place to top 8, shouldn't we be examining the lists of, say, the top 50?

perrin23860 wrote:
It would seem the bigger issue than any particular unit or faction is the use of multiple factions in order to abuse strategems in my mind. These lists are specifically designed to unlock a much larger toolbox of strategems. Something that was specifically thought to be abusive with the new daemon book and nerfed, but not with eldar and imperium. Shrugs...

This is the most significant factor in my opinion. Balance would be much smoother to figure out with 'pure' codex lists. When certain factions can cherry pick through a variety of codex or index options/strategems/wargear/etc and others cannot (orks, necrons, nids, and other independent factions) then there is an obvious disadvantage occurring.

At the top national tournament level, lists should be limited to one codex/index, but that will likely never happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

If something that minor can propel a guy from 32nd place to top 8, shouldn't we be examining the lists of, say, the top 50?

I would do that regardless, if I had access to the bcp player app. It says it's not compatible with my device. I'm guessing my android 4.4 os isn't up to par any longer.

People need to drop the soup hate. We are far away from that argument. Soup is 40k.
However when 1 unit is in every soup and codex list it’s not soup issue it’s that single unit.
The blood angel captain may also be an issue but once again it’s a single unit issue. Space marine by and large weren’t great and few units in the space marine codex were an issue.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
4/8 top players are Eldar soup/Aeldari - clearly OP, must nerf!

3/8 top players are Imperial soup/SM - *whistles and walks away*

Makes you wonder about the motivations of some people...or I guess some people just like to complain in general.

People have been calling for Guard to be nerfed to the ground since the edition started so I have no idea what you're talking about.

...Did you miss the part where they actually did nerf the guard significantly? Repeatedly? (Besides, these are more SM-focused than Guard...which is why I said "soup/SM" and not "soup/IG")

Interestingly, you just demonstrated my point exactly - Ynnari also took a massive nerf (also called for over a long time), but you jumped to the defense suddenly of Imperium players...

I've stated previously in this thread that the Death Company Captain is probably too strong for his points, but sure, I'm white knighting for a faction I don't even play.

Mchaagen wrote:

I would do that regardless, if I had access to the bcp player app. It says it's not compatible with my device. I'm guessing my android 4.4 os isn't up to par any longer.

You know it's up to Android 8.1 right? lol might be time for an upgrade.

gungo wrote:
People need to drop the soup hate. We are far away from that argument. Soup is 40k.
However when 1 unit is in every soup and codex list it’s not soup issue it’s that single unit.
The blood angel captain may also be an issue but once again it’s a single unit issue. Space marine by and large weren’t great and few units in the space marine codex were an issue.

This isn't hate, Realize that not all criticism is 'hate.' If someone cannot see the inherent disadvantage of choosing a faction that has no option to ally in with other codex books then there's some brick wall mentality going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

Mchaagen wrote:

I would do that regardless, if I had access to the bcp player app. It says it's not compatible with my device. I'm guessing my android 4.4 os isn't up to par any longer.

You know it's up to Android 8.1 right? lol might be time for an upgrade.

I'm aware..

DVoS gives fnp 5+ and +1 attack on charge and can benefit from Lemartes' rerolls (charge, hit). BA have also Mephiston who can be buffed with CP, red rampage strat is also good for this. My point is that 1CP to buff a single HQ with the above isn't a game breaking.

I would have assumed that ravenguard would been higher, the strike from the shadows strat is nasty with fe. Aggressors to clear screens..

I want to ask, is it automatic that every list/unit that reaches top tables is in automatic need of a nerf? I'm a bit provocative here, but so far in 8th ai haven't seen any double demi-company free cheese shenagians etc. Hope that last wave of codex releases will give some enjoyment.

Really the only thing in those top lists I've seen that made me go "yuck, that's dirty" is the triple Eldar flyer. Wouldn't they have been at -2 to hit? Obnoxious.

i would like to know what list Alan de hessa played, i know was alpha+N demons.

 blackmage wrote:
i would like to know what list Alan de hessa played, i know was alpha+N demons.

Here you go ...

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Really the only thing in those top lists I've seen that made me go "yuck, that's dirty" is the triple Eldar flyer. Wouldn't they have been at -2 to hit? Obnoxious.

They just finished playing that game which aired on the flg livestream. Jeff lost to Nanavati's Ynnari/Alaitoc list, 13-40 I think. Jeff used the flyers to target opportune targets (hiding in cover) up close in his first turn--sacrificing the -1 to hit at more than 12" range.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

Um ... read the last line on their announcement in the March/September part of their update-policy.

If there is one unit that will be addressed in March, it's Dark Reapers, not least because Codex-release-to-CA-printer-deadline was probably not a window for anything.

I give Dark Reapers about another 6 weeks or so.

If GW cared about balance and didn\t have history of BUFFING obviously broken units I might agree. As it is since it's been shown already GW still doesn't care about balance and changes are £££ driven not so sure.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

There are zero Codex: Marines lists in the top 8 actually. There are two Blood Angels lists (which may mean that the Death Company Captain warrants a nerf, he is pretty insane for his cost) and a Space Wolves list that is far beyond my feeble comprehension.

"Space Wolves" list isn't that. It's essentially a dozend or so beatstick-characters (wolf lords, Assassins, Mephiston) you cannot target due to the character protection rules. And a few guardsman for CP with mortars sitting in the back).

It's essentially a variation of the all-Assassins list that won something early in 8th.

I think a variation of this might become popular with Custodes Jetbike-Captains instead of Thunderwolf-Lords. Lots of T6/W7/2+/4++ things coming at you for a melee-beatdown, that you cannot target (i.e. no split-shooting declarations until the front-most-one is dead, etc..) effectively (though Harald Deathwolf on point might remain popular, given he has a 2++ against shooting).

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
i would like to know what list Alan de hessa played, i know was alpha+N demons.

Here you go ...

tysm, strange list,,,,didn't think he got epidemius in a list with few Nurgle models.

 bullyboy wrote:

Look how many Space Marine lists are in the Top 8, nobody crying there.

I mean, at least look at the lists before making weird statements like this. You hurt your own argument with ignorance lad.

Lol @ the eldar defenders.

Ynarri dark reapers. Yep they're a problem. Dark reapers in general seem to have shaped the meta by themselves which to me seems like the hallmark of an OP unit. And I told you guys that ynarri shining spears were damned good!

To me, what really makes a mess of the whole eldar thing is the strats and psychic powers are god tier good. Deepstriking, minus to hit, shoot move shoot, move after deployment are all really good strats, doom, guide, conceal all really good powers. Throw all that on top of some units that are borderline OP and you have a top 8 which 50% of is one faction in a 20 faction tournament.

Imperium soup has a new dance partner though and it isn't wearing smurf blue.

All the people screaming gulliman is OP, there are more eldar players in the top 8 than there are guilliman lists in the top 100. Let that sink in for a minute.

Obviously there is something going on with BA because if eldar are OP1 at this tourney then BA are OP2. I think captain smash-fer is probably under-costed but I'm not sure how you dial him back because most of his power comes from those other buffing characters. I think DC are good but not OP, very similar to berserkers but with a bit better delivery option and a little worse combat ability.

Dark angels did pretty well. A couple 4-2 lists, a few spots in the top 100 (3). Seem to work better as part of soup though.

Not sure why people are so down on Nids. Between them and GSC there are hella them in the top 100 (just not in the top 8). Maybe they don't like to be reduced to soup but everyone's doing it (eldar/ynarri, BA/IG, nids/guard, CSM/Demons).

Surprised with how many Tau and Orks are in the top 100. For all the crying that goes on around here about how they are not competitive they performed better than Codex SM...With no Soup!!

I'm not sure how to look at Sisters. It looks like they performed pretty well but then you dig into their lists and they are very soupy. They seem to be a really good soup addition but I think they are getting replaced by BA.

IG has fallen out of the top spot but they are still well represented in the top 100. Didn't think I'd see that many DKoK units at a major but I guess if you are spending 1k+ to attend the tourney whats another 1k on a couple units...

Chaos is really well represented in the top 100 but them missing from the top tables points out that the bash-brothers lists have been countered (classic gate keeper list) and that their other combos are good but not broken (I still think oblits are a problem but that doesn't seem borne out by these results)

GK still doing their soup thing. Not a terrible showing

Fire raptors obviously under-costed. Good job CA.

Poor necrons, AdMech, Knights, R&H

I don't know why people are saying Space Marines are well represented in Top 8.

First, Space Marine codex is not represented at all.

However, if you must lump all space marine fluff armies together, they made 3 out of 8, which sounds good until you realize that
- 2 of the 3 lists are half AM
- 1 list isn't really space marines, just a couple strong beat stick wolfy commanders, without a single non-commander space marine unit.
- Out of the 12 released, 5 of them are space marines (6 if you include chaos space marines). Given that ratio, you'd expect half of the top 8 to be from power armored codexes, so 2-3 is actually underperforming.

ashmizen wrote:
I don't know why people are saying Space Marines are well represented in Top 8.

First, Space Marine codex is not represented at all.

However, if you must lump all space marine fluff armies together, they made 3 out of 8, which sounds good until you realize that
- 2 of the 3 lists are half AM
- 1 list isn't really space marines, just a couple strong beat stick wolfy commanders, without a single non-commander space marine unit.
- Out of the 12 released, 5 of them are space marines (6 if you include chaos space marines). Given that ratio, you'd expect half of the top 8 to be from power armored codexes, so 2-3 is actually underperforming.

Ooh! I can play this game!

"Craftworld Eldar are hardly represented at all."

-The lists are largely half Ynnari mix, not CWE.
-These lists aren't *really* CWE lists, because they might contain CWE units supplementing other Eldar factions.
-Of the 4 Eldar factions, only 1 has a codex, so you'd expect 100% of the Eldar lists to be pure CWE, so it is actually underperforming.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, as it says you're a new user with no other posts...but this sort of logic doesn't really hold weight. Especially considering the large access that other SM armies have to the core and base units, they're similar enough that people generalize - it's the same reason people aren't really differentiating Ynnari/CWE lists, but rather talking about Eldar as a whole.

Really? 5 out of the top 8 is under represented?

Sorry, I'm confused, what percentage is needed for Eldar to be fairly represented?

ashmizen wrote:
Really? 5 out of the top 8 is under represented?

Sorry, I'm confused, what percentage is needed for Eldar to be fairly represented?

I think you missed the point. It was sarcasm. I was using your logic to "prove" a clearly false point to demonstrate that the logic was poor.

tneva82 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Where to start... What evidence do you have that they'll "fix" dark reapers soon? The Eldar codex is new and the Chapter approved is new and GW stated they won't do another rebalance for a year. There is no reason to believe that it'll change all that soon. After all, GW was too consumed with nerfing Corsairs than Dark Reapers.

Um ... read the last line on their announcement in the March/September part of their update-policy.

If there is one unit that will be addressed in March, it's Dark Reapers, not least because Codex-release-to-CA-printer-deadline was probably not a window for anything.

I give Dark Reapers about another 6 weeks or so.

If GW cared about balance and didn\t have history of BUFFING obviously broken units I might agree. As it is since it's been shown already GW still doesn't care about balance and changes are £££ driven not so sure.

If GW cared about balance the only thing allowed in matched play would be one codex only armies. But that is not going to happen so dont take the game to seriously.

bananathug wrote:
Surprised with how many Tau and Orks are in the top 100. For all the crying that goes on around here about how they are not competitive they performed better than Codex SM...With no Soup!!

Im a long time ork player; and I want some things fixed in the new codex when it eventually drops, but the ork playerbase on this forum is absolutely toxic. Persecutory delusion everywhere

lmao Kenny Bouche's list is so toxic and boring.

"im gonna throw 3000 dice at you and try to roll a bunch of 5's and 6's"

The best part about tournament results is to see arm-chair generals try to do mental gimnastics to prove their points and narrative, normally reaching totally opposite conclusions from the same data. Its hilarious.

I'm concerned that the new character rules coupled with the tournament terrain rules seem far too abusable, and it creates an abnormal reliance on hero hammer.

where does a person go to see the full results? Top 100 etc?

 davou wrote:
where does a person go to see the full results? Top 100 etc?

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/q09y1gw9

Annoyingly, they aren't showing factions on this page for most players. They were earlier. Something must have broken.
You can still click on players to see their factions.

Bubbalicious wrote:


If GW cared about balance the only thing allowed in matched play would be one codex only armies. But that is not going to happen so dont take the game to seriously.

If tournament organizers cared about balance, they'd just do it that way. It's not like ITC plays remotely anything like 40K to start with.

Hell, just go all the way and do the next LVO with everyone having to play a specific list by the organisers for a perfect mirror-match for everyone on perfectly symmetrical table everywhere. Done.

thank you!