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All 18 Primarchs fighting together and working together would be utterly unstoppable. This however assumes that the crazier Primarchs don't betray or teamkill the others (ie, Angron doesn't just cut down Russ because he's in the way, or Alpharius hasn't developed a master plot to become Alpha Primarch no pun intended). 18 Primarchs would compliment each other perfectly and cover each other in all situations.

If each Primarch was fighting as an individual you'd have more debate. Its the same situation that was entioned of Custodes in First Heretic, or that Russ makes to Angron. Each individual is a far greater warrior and fighter than any Space Marine, but by working together, a squad of Space Marines forms a unit far more deadly than the sum of its part. Sure, a Primarch could slaughter a tactical squad, but 5 tactical squads are capable of surrounding, outflanking, supressing the Primarch with overlapping fields of fire, covering each other, hit and run leapfrogs, many different things.

To reiterate, 18 Primarchs all working in total cooperation, not just for conveniance or because of a common enemy, but united completely, would be unbeatable by any ground army. But if they weren't totally united, I'd say, 4 Legions could pick off some of the more individualistic ones (Angron, Kurze, Lorgar, Perturabo, Russ). 10 Legions could get it down to a core of the more level headed "We must work together" Primarchs such as the Lion, Guilliman, Horus, Vulkan, Sanguinius maybe. 15 would finish them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


This. Quite frankly, I usually view the more ludicrous depictions of both Primarchs and Marines in books as propaganda at best and fanwank at worst. The only real measurable method of determining a dude's combat ability is in the crunch.

This is the background forum, not general discussion. Looks like you took a wrong turn.

If you do not want to discuss the lore then sorry, this is not the subforum for you.

I understand what you're saying, and I've heard it a few times. I'm not certain how valid of an argument it is. Perhaps I was a little strong in my wording. What I actually meant was that for determining the relative combat prowess between two characters, a useful tool is the crunch (which is as much a contributor to the background and feel of the universe as the books are). The crunch is supposed to represent the background (within the limits of a balanced game system).

For instance, how do we know that Wraithguard are generally tougher than an Astartes? There's nothing in the fluff stating this, and no real comparable instance in the fluff of them facing the same trials and the wraithguard surviving but the Marine not. However, it's something that we can glean about the universe by the fact that Marines are represented by a toughness value of 4 and Wraithguard by a toughness value of 6. The use of the same (supposedly) representative stats is quite often a better tool for understanding the background of how tough and killy someone is than fluff, which is often afflicted by significant bias towards the character or the plot (hence plot armour being a thing, which isn't really an excuse for having someone be unkillable). Not that the crunch is immune from that, far from it, but generally it's afflicted less.

If someone asked the OP's question and I responded with 'These are the tactics I'd use with the Primarchs to beat X number of Marines using the game system) I'd absolutely be in the wrong forum. If I'm using the crunch as an addition to the fluff in order to better understand the background of the 40k universe, I'd say I'm in the right place. I understand that being the Background forum there's an implicit understanding that the crunch isn't wholly accurate or gospel, and that the fluff is usually accorded with more weight. However, focusing solely on the fluff does tend to ignore the value and information that can be gleaned from comparing representative statistics.

Plus, personally I thought that roughly 1000 Marines to kill all 18 Primarchs is actually pretty realistic (more if the Primarchs are using tactics rather than just standing there getting zergrushed by Marines). That's a hell of a lot of bodies, and it also fits with the fluff of Dorn being killed by regular Chaos Marines (and not actually that many of them).

Of course, that's just, like, my opinion man...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The crunch is supposed to represent the background (within the limits of a balanced game system).

Now go tell the SoB players that your average Scout is a significantly more skilled fighter than your average (but still fully trained) SoB and watch how they react. The stats support it after all.

The crunch is an absolute mess where you can shrug off two fist-sized explosive shells, either of which would have gibbed your bodyguards, simply because you are a major and they are not.

Hah, I suppose I should have put nested brackets there. 'The limits of a poorly balanced game system' might have been more accurate.

By no means is it anywhere near perfect, wholly accurate, or implied to be the be-all and end-all (apologies if I said that before, it's not quite what I meant!). Neither is the fluff.

By comparing and contrasting the two together we can come up with a more detailed and nuanced understanding of the background of 40k than by just looking at one of them in isolation. I suppose that's my point, although it's taken me three posts to get there!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The crunch is supposed to represent the background (within the limits of a balanced game system).

Now go tell the SoB players that your average Scout is a significantly more skilled fighter than your average (but still fully trained) SoB and watch how they react. The stats support it after all.

The crunch is an absolute mess where you can shrug off two fist-sized explosive shells, either of which would have gibbed your bodyguards, simply because you are a major and they are not.

The stats used to put them on the same level, it changed in 7th Ed to make Scouts more useful because people can't help but min-max. BS3? Get outta here, this is Space Marines! EVERYONE HITS ON 3s!!!!

The stats give a rough indication that X is stronger than Y is stronger than Z. That a human is a better fighter than a Grot but a worse fighter than a Space Marine and an Autarch is much more skilled than the Space Marine and human, and all of them are utterly outclassed by an Avatar or Hive Tyrant or Lelith. That a human is an average shot and Space Marines are by default better than most human marksmen and Telion is above most humanity can offer, a Vindicare is able to perform JFK style assassinations with his eyes closed and the Eldar Ranger sniper character who's name I can't remember, is in another league entirely.

Its not going to give exact numbers, but its enough to gauge who's superior to who and by roughly how much.

Bang on the money Deadshot it's not of much value when comparing similar dude(tte)s like Guardsmen and Sisters, because of bias and the lack of granularity in a D6 0-10 stat system.

It can however, be useful for pointing out and giving rough context to large disparities such as Astartes vs Primarch (within the bounds of a biased and changeable game system).

It's bad for making straight comparisons. It's good for making comparisons of magnitude.

It's also just one thing in a whole sea of things used to give flavour to the background, any of which you are explicitly told you are welcome to dismiss as innacurate if you don't like it. In principle this could result in a complete anarchy where nothing makes sense, but in actuality it doesn't through the general consensus of the people who read it

 Deadshot wrote:
All 18 Primarchs fighting together and working together would be utterly unstoppable. This however assumes that the crazier Primarchs don't betray or teamkill the others (ie, Angron doesn't just cut down Russ because he's in the way, or Alpharius hasn't developed a master plot to become Alpha Primarch no pun intended). 18 Primarchs would compliment each other perfectly and cover each other in all situations.

If each Primarch was fighting as an individual you'd have more debate. Its the same situation that was entioned of Custodes in First Heretic, or that Russ makes to Angron. Each individual is a far greater warrior and fighter than any Space Marine, but by working together, a squad of Space Marines forms a unit far more deadly than the sum of its part. Sure, a Primarch could slaughter a tactical squad, but 5 tactical squads are capable of surrounding, outflanking, supressing the Primarch with overlapping fields of fire, covering each other, hit and run leapfrogs, many different things.

To reiterate, 18 Primarchs all working in total cooperation, not just for conveniance or because of a common enemy, but united completely, would be unbeatable by any ground army. But if they weren't totally united, I'd say, 4 Legions could pick off some of the more individualistic ones (Angron, Kurze, Lorgar, Perturabo, Russ). 10 Legions could get it down to a core of the more level headed "We must work together" Primarchs such as the Lion, Guilliman, Horus, Vulkan, Sanguinius maybe. 15 would finish them.

I dont see the 'individualistic ones' being all that easy.

Angron isnt a mindless warrior, he is just good at picking that line between suicidal and extremely bold move that leaves him advancing incredibly quickly breaking all resistance before him without actually getting killed. It's not "straight at the enemy gun line, every single time" It's the boldest, quickest, plan that doesnt get him killed.
He is always more than willing to work with others, so long as his part of the plan involves bold action.

Kurze has near perfect visions of the future. If he was going to die, he would take different actions and not die. That might involve him running away from the battle, but he isnt getting gunned down. He would run away and fight his war. A war of slow terror and attrition. It might take him a thousand years, but he could chew threw all the space marines in the galaxy.

Lorgar would probably also run away. Except he wouldnt come back, not unless he had a giant crusade of cultists.

Perturabo was incredibly calculating and intelligent. He would find a way to stack the odds in his favor. If it meant working together, he would work together.

Russ would get drunk. Not really sure how he or Khan would go about this.

Corax would fight some sort of stealth insurrection, probably only to find Kurze is doing it better.

Also it would be 17 primarchs vs all the legions astartes +2, and the legions would soon find they are suffering from a lot of friendly fire.