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 Melissia wrote:
Two problems with that.

The first is that, if you do Space Wolves, you can only have a single detachment of pure dreads and thus only a single CP., because Space Wolves only have a single HQ choice, and that's Bjorn.

.

Don't you mean 4CP? A battleforged army gives 3CP to start with +1 from vanguard detachment.
A vanguard detachment just needs 1 HQ and 3 elites. Bjorn can fulfil the HQ requirement and the elites can have just dreds.

You can always use a Chaplin Dread from FW if you need more HQs. Even if you play a Dread list a techmarine or two would still fit the theme, count as HQs and would help the army quite a bit.

The problem with dreadnoughts is that high cannon fodder model count is better than elites.

A mob of 50 conscripts won't kill a dreadnought but it will tarpit it for all eternity as it's literally impossible to melee them to death

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem with dreadnoughts is that high cannon fodder model count is better than elites.

A mob of 50 conscripts won't kill a dreadnought but it will tarpit it for all eternity as it's literally impossible to melee them to death

So just shoot them?

That said I think there are better ways to make Dread "heavy" armies, but if I were considering an all dread army using only non-FW models I would go for

Vanguard - Space Wolves

Bjorn - twin lascannon, heavyflamer, True claw

6 x Venerable dread w/ 2 Twin auto cannons

Vanguard- Blood angels
Librarian Dread - Force Halberd, Fist, Heavy flamer
2 xDC dread - Fists, 2 heavy flamers
1 x Venerable dread w/ 2 Twin auto cannons


You get 6 CP (3 base, 1 for each vanguard, 1 for Bjorn.) Bjorn gives Re-rolls 1s (to bs 2+) for all the SW dreads, you lay down a ton of S7 shooting (56 shots hitting on 2+, 48 on re-rollable 2+). The Libby and DC dreads (and BJorn if needed) run as counter assault elements.

It would probably be decent, though in reality, it would be better using things other than dreads (DA with Azreal is better because all the dreads get 4++, a Primaris Lieutenant can give -re-roll 1s to wound, Scouts to screen against deepstrike assaults, potentially a tech marine to fix them.)

I might go with something like
Vanguard
Azreal
6 X Venerable Rifleman
Darkshroud - Heavy bolter

Vanguard
Primaris Lieutenant
6 scouts
5 scouts
4 x rifleman

A bit vunerable to the assault but a ton of shooting to put down most things, and very durable against shooting.

Bray'arth Ashmantle is another option as an HQ dread

I figure if walking up and not doing anything is a problem why not go half n half.

Various flavor of shooting arms and DCW
also cant forget all those flamers and storm bolters can add up for anti infantry power.

Ass cannons arent half bad for dealing with T3 too.

I have been fiddling with the idea of an Iron Hands dread army all week, since their CT was revealed. If the "ignoring heavy penalty" ability is simply an army wide rule and not a stratagem, then a few Techmarines with Mortis Dreads/Deredeos will be quite strong, imo.

 Desubot wrote:
I figure if walking up and not doing anything is a problem why not go half n half.

Various flavor of shooting arms and DCW

Doable. Again, sticking with BAngels for style points instead of min-maxing:

Vanguard 1:
-- LibDread w/HF, FFist, FFHalberd
-- DCDread w/HF, HF, TwinFFist, Magna
-- Dread w/TwinAC, DCCW, HF
-- Dread w/TwinAC, DCCW, HF
Vanguard 2:
-- LibDread w/SB, FFist, FFHalberd
-- Dread w/TwinLC, TwinAC
-- Dread w/TwinLC, TwinAC
-- Dread w/TwinLC, TwinAC
Vanguard 3:
-- LibDread w/SB, FFist, FFHalberd
-- Dread w/TwinAC, TwinAC
-- Dread w/TwinAC, TwinAC
-- Dread w/TwinAC, TwinAC

So that's 12 dreads. 3 librarians, 6 shooty dreads, 3 assault dreads, with two of the assault dreads having twin autocannons they can fire on the move at -1 to hit (Heavy 4 hitting on 4+ is still two hits on average, so this isn't a huge problem). Librarians follow behind the assault dreads buffing them and being immune to shooting as long as the assault dreads are closer than they are, and eventually get stuck in, as well.

I think if I wanted to stay fluffy and almost all dreads I would go Space Wolves

Vanguard
Bjorn w/ Twin LC
5 x Twin AC Ven dread

Vangaurd
Iron Priest W TH, servo arm, boltgun
Murder fang
2 x Ven dread w. Asscan, DCCW, HF
5 x Twin AC Ven dread


11 dreads + Iron priest to fix them

Bjorn hangs back giving re-rolls to the 7 Twin AC dreads and shooting his lascannon

The 2 Assaulty Ven dreads and Murderfang move to assault against things coming close.

Right, now that we have seen the new codex and almost everything has been spoiled in reviews what is everyone thinking re SM Dread Army?

For me it is down to either;

Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Salamanders







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron Hands is not only tempting for the increased durability, but also because of the FW Chaplain Venerable Dread.

T7 9W

Standard 3+ save
Reliquarious: 5+ Invulnerable
Unyielding Ancient: Ignore wound on a 6
Iron Hands tactic: Ignore wound on a 6

The fact it is WS and BS 2+ non degrading means the re-rolls probably won't be quite as beneficial as a 3+ which is where the Salamanders really start to shine.

I am not 100% sure how the IH Stratagem works re moving and shooting heavy weapons; is it pick one unit or all units? If it is all units that means you can have the CCW and a Lascannon and advance in the first few turns without penalty on multiple Chaplains.

That's very hard to kill for the points and can be the army HQ!

Ravenguard also seems like a valid choice as it makes backline dreads much more durable than the iron hands tactic does. Give them a captain/chapter master to hang out with for re-rolls and they should do pretty good.

I've been running 2 rifle dreads in my SM and SW lists and just love them so far. They delete heavy infantry by forcing a high number of save rolls (it's not uncommon for me to do 6-7 wounds with reroll characters nearby) and delete whole models of bikes, terminators, primaris, etc.

I can see dread-only lists having issues with lots of vehicles and lot of infantry, but would probably do decently against more well wounded lists.

jcd386 wrote:
Ravenguard also seems like a valid choice as it makes backline dreads much more durable than the iron hands tactic does. Give them a captain/chapter master to hang out with for re-rolls and they should do pretty good.

I've been running 2 rifle dreads in my SM and SW lists and just love them so far. They delete heavy infantry by forcing a high number of save rolls (it's not uncommon for me to do 6-7 wounds with reroll characters nearby) and delete whole models of bikes, terminators, primaris, etc.

I can see dread-only lists having issues with lots of vehicles and lot of infantry, but would probably do decently against more well wounded lists.

You make a very good point about Raven Guard being a contender!

Couple of things I have been trying to get my head around;

1) How much more resilient is RG overall? Its a given the Dreads in the backline are going to be very hard to take down, however what about the rest of the Dreads moving forwards and engaging the enemy within 12"?

So on balance is the RG tactic going to outperform the IH over the course of a game?

2) Is it better to be harder to hit or hit more often with Heavy Weapons?

Salamanders for example make a great case for simply getting more damage down range and in close combat. IH also seem to have something around moving and shooting and the Ultramarines can just walk arms folded with the Primarch. RG have nothing extra outside what is already available to everyone in this respect. However at the same time, if you are still alive that means you can still attack right..

Its a tough decision and I don't have the answers!

Gibs55 wrote:
Right, now that we have seen the new codex and almost everything has been spoiled in reviews what is everyone thinking re SM Dread Army?

For me it is down to either;

Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Salamanders

Without forgeworld, can ANY of these take HQ dreads?

If not, none of them are valid choices.

 Melissia wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Right, now that we have seen the new codex and almost everything has been spoiled in reviews what is everyone thinking re SM Dread Army?

For me it is down to either;

Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Salamanders

Without forgeworld, can ANY of these take HQ dreads?

If not, none of them are valid choices.

Well if you are that technical then no, however you could just run Techmarines to satisfy HQ which would still fit the theme. However everywhere I have played FW has never been a problem, maybe its just in your group?

 Melissia wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Right, now that we have seen the new codex and almost everything has been spoiled in reviews what is everyone thinking re SM Dread Army?

For me it is down to either;

Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Salamanders

Without forgeworld, can ANY of these take HQ dreads?

If not, none of them are valid choices.

Why does forgeworld matter? You still get Chapter Tactics when using Forgeworld Models. We also haven't seen the full codex, they might have added in a new HQ dread or made the Primaris Dread an HQ

Worst case scenario you just slap techmarines in instead.

TBH I would have to say Salamanders. The additional FNP on your venerable dreads is nice but Salamanders means you have a 90% chance of hitting with all your weapons.

It's not actually "my group" but a personal bias for me. I've... seen some of the things FW released for 8th edition ruleswise and it rather puts me off. But that combined with their price means I just don't consider them seriously when I consider choices. I like their designs for new units and such but the conversion to 8th feels really rushed.

 Melissia wrote:
It's not actually "my group" but a personal bias for me. I've... seen some of the things FW released for 8th edition ruleswise and it rather puts me off. But that combined with their price means I just don't consider them seriously when I consider choices. I like their designs for new units and such but the conversion to 8th feels really rushed.

Why make such sweeping statements like If not, none of them are valid choices when its just you? All this does is derail the discussion, why not try and progress and help the idea?

You're the one pressuring me to provide conversation about my opinion on FW, and therefor dragging the thread off topic. If you don't want me to talk about it, don't fething ask. You got your answer, regardless. I don't consider it as valid as a conversation that includes only GW dreads.

 Melissia wrote:
You're the one pressuring me to provide conversation about my opinion on FW, and therefor dragging the thread off topic. If you don't want me to talk about it, don't fething ask. You got your answer, regardless. I don't consider it as valid as a conversation that includes only GW dreads.

Ok,

Well going back up before you posted your thoughts about FW. How would you build an optimal Dread Army?

I'm not sure. Assuming FW is an option you'd prefer to go with, and there's nothing in the SM book that has an HQ dread, I would go with chaplain dread leading a ravenguard shooty dread list, with a few twinAC/DCCW dreads sprinkled in to handle enemies that try to close in within 12".

If it's not, one of the BA lists I previously gave is what I'd go with. Not sure what the BA CT will eventually be, mind you.

If you want to go with DA, you can take an IC that gives all models within 6" a 4++.
He also lets the reroll misses.
That's very handy for a dread strike squad.

I am going to have a crack at building and painting a new army focusing on Dreads. It does not have to be 100% Dreads and I would appreciate some constructive advice.

Points: 2000

Chapter: Salamanders

Warlord: Vulkan He'stan (re-rolls to Melta and Flame weapons

Focus: Using Vulkan to get re-rolls on a Relic Leviathan with either a single or pair of Cyclone Melta Lances.

The Cyclone Melta is on 18" range so I am thinking about throwing in a Storm Raven to ensure I can deliver both Vulkan and the Leviathan in range. Should I then add a Terminator or Centurion squad to go with them?

The alternative would be to footslog with two Relic Leviathans?

To get the Leviathans I am going to have to take some Mortis Dreads (not sure which type) due to the relic rule and trying to keep in theme as much as possible.

So I guess the list so far is;

HQ
Vulkan

Heavy Support:
Mortis Dread
Mortis Dread
Relic Leviathan
Relic Leviathan

Elite:
Terminator or Centurion squad?
Dreads???

Flyer:
Storm Raven?

Just not quite sure which additional Dreads I should include and their load outs along with how much I can deviate from the Dread army concept before it dilutes it too much?

People tried here in my group, but to be honest it didn't scare me that much. If you use good terrain, the dreads won't have a lot of targets and will have to move to fire at you - suffering -1BS and exposing themselves.

The melee ones without Lucious/Stormraven are in an even worse situation. Walking towards the enemy with a minimum of AT will turn them into smoking heap

 Vector Strike wrote:
People tried here in my group, but to be honest it didn't scare me that much. If you use good terrain, the dreads won't have a lot of targets and will have to move to fire at you - suffering -1BS and exposing themselves.

The melee ones without Lucious/Stormraven are in an even worse situation. Walking towards the enemy with a minimum of AT will turn them into smoking heap

It'll be a lot scarier with Iron Hands. The HQ dread with the FNP warlord trait will get to roll 3d6 to ignore every point of damage.

Even though i like Dreads, they are expensive, slow, not a lot of wounds. I would prefer razorbacks, or Rhinos. Faster, more wounds, and only about half the cost. And troop carrying ability.