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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/31 23:01:34
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/31 23:11:31
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Space marines pay only 3 points for jump packs, so grav chutes can't cost that much as they just give one tiny piece of a jump pack's ability. Just give scions jump packs as an option. It would fill a hole in our army as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote:@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
I've always assumed that HSLGs were GW's version of a carbine, as the scions are supposed to be special forces. In which case their lower range makes sense.
But now that I think about it, assault 2 would be far better than rapid fire. I'd be dumping 40 shots at 18" instead of at 9".
I am now in your camp! hah!
As to the command characters, I doubt GW is going to dump the existing command squad. its not that old, it still includes all the options, and it looks decent. Neither would they for scions, as the scion kit already includes all the options. Its really just a game rules problem. I'd really rather they weren't just even more elite characters to push our drop numbers up even higher.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/31 23:15:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/31 23:14:43
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway". Automatically Appended Next Post: Future War Cultist wrote:@ argonak
I was thinking more about the number of shots at range rather than advancing. As in 2 shots at at max range rather than just half range.
And I do think Command squads are obsolete these days. The standard bearer could become a 3 wound character (a colour sergeant or an ensign?) or a straight upgrade to a regular squad. I perfer the former tbh. Same for the medic. They could make a new command set that's 5 separate chatacters; standard bearer, medic, master of ordinance, officer of the fleet and astropath, all in plastic. But knowing gee dubs they'd sell them individually at a higher price.
Why would they make a new command set?
You can make the Standard Bearer, Medic, Master of Ordnance, and Officer of the Fleet out of the Cadian Command Squad set right now.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 23:15:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/31 23:25:26
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Well, umm.... I do not really know what to say. My army has always been and will always be a mechanised company of Heavy Infantry. I feel cheated.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/31 23:49:15
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Try the Taurox. I know it's not very good visually for a lot of people, but it's a better source of firepower.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 00:06:36
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Honestly, it's a bit of a head-scratcher why the Taurox prime is only 60 points base to the Chimera's 75. Sure, it has 1 less toughness, but it has BS3+ and a much better weapon selection. Also it's totally worth the extra 5 points over the regular Taurox to get those things. For some reason the regular Taurox only gets two autocannons and can't swap them for anything.
Of course, the Taurox Prime can only transport MT... so for regular Guard, ground transport options are currently poor. Either 91 points for a Chimera with two heavy bolters, or 85 points for a Taurox with two autocannons.
That also raises the question of why the Razorback is 65 points when it has the same toughness as a Chimera, the same wounds, BS3+, and access to twin assault cannons or twin lascannons. Are the extra 6 seats really worth that much?
Hmm, we've already got a BMP and an MRAP, it would be neat if we could get a Humvee as a dirt-cheap transport option. Outside of Krieg, that is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 00:22:21
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Melissia wrote:Try the Taurox. I know it's not very good visually for a lot of people, but it's a better source of firepower.
The aesthetics is why I'm building open-topped Chimeras to use as Tauroxes. And really, it would just need a couple more turret options to be kinda a cool alternative. Especially for cheap mounted infantry squads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 00:37:17
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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argonak wrote:
Space marines pay only 3 points for jump packs, so grav chutes can't cost that much as they just give one tiny piece of a jump pack's ability. Just give scions jump packs as an option. It would fill a hole in our army as well.
It costs 3 points for Genestealers to gain deep strike.
Stormtroopers should not "fill that hole", where Space Marines do a thing that we don't do. In that case, Space Marines should also get a cheap swarm area-denial unit, and powerful antitank artillery. God knows they don't need anything like that.
Stormtroopers are special operations, not close assault. Veterans and Conscripts are close assault. Stormtroopers work in small teams to accomplish limited and specific objectives. They shouldn't be an army in and of themselves, remotely, and should have options for a bunch of specialist equipment to accomplish their mission be it assassinating an enemy leader or blowing up a key enemy fortification or artillery battery.
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:00:10
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 00:44:12
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Scions are not worth 13ppm, no way, 12 was alright back in 7th, now they might be a point to cheap. And personally, I am really happy I can run an army of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 00:58:00
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 01:14:05
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ross-128 wrote:Honestly, it's a bit of a head-scratcher why the Taurox prime is only 60 points base to the Chimera's 75. Sure, it has 1 less toughness, but it has BS3+ and a much better weapon selection. Also it's totally worth the extra 5 points over the regular Taurox to get those things. For some reason the regular Taurox only gets two autocannons and can't swap them for anything.
Of course, the Taurox Prime can only transport MT... so for regular Guard, ground transport options are currently poor. Either 91 points for a Chimera with two heavy bolters, or 85 points for a Taurox with two autocannons.
That also raises the question of why the Razorback is 65 points when it has the same toughness as a Chimera, the same wounds, BS3+, and access to twin assault cannons or twin lascannons. Are the extra 6 seats really worth that much?
Hmm, we've already got a BMP and an MRAP, it would be neat if we could get a Humvee as a dirt-cheap transport option. Outside of Krieg, that is.
Chimera also has its lasgun array. But I agree its overcosted, or else a lot of other transports are undercost.
Don't look close at the Valkyrie competitors though or you'll be really ticked off.
I don't say they should fill a hole where space marines do a thing we don't do, I say they should fill a hole where we have too few fast attack options.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 01:19:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 01:19:04
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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ross-128 wrote:Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
Let's see, I had a nifty website going over the Org Chart of an infantry unit somewhere:
Here:
A Platoon Command Section in the US Army in 1944 would have had:
1 Platoon Leader
1 Platoon Sergeant
1 Platoon Guide
2 Messengers
A Company Command Section would have had:
1 CO
1 XO
1 First Sergeant
1 Communications Officer
1 Clerk
1 Cook
1 Quartermaster
http://www.100thww2.org/100org/rifcom.html
If we assume the Clerk, Cook, and Quartermaster have stayed at the barracks, that still leaves several guys helping out the Company Commander or Platoon Commander.
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 02:23:52
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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ross-128 wrote:Quite a few things to address.
Are we really going to make it mandatory to put a bunch of pencil-pushers and advisors directly on the battlefield? At least with special/heavy weapons they act more like a bodyguard.
If the imagifier is crap as you say, why should we use crap as our standard?
While the Fireblade is more expensive, his bonus is being applied to S5 weapons instead of S3 and it can potentially be applied to more than two squads. It's also passive, so it remains functional during overwatch, FRFSRF doesn't. So the comparison isn't entirely straightforward. We're not putting FRFSRF on heavy bolters here.
Seems like a common theme on Dakka is "I think something is slightly out of line. Let's make huge, sweeping changes."
Even a Private can be a pencil pusher you do know, or I guess don't.
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Feed the poor war gamer with money. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 12:54:31
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Let's see, I had a nifty website going over the Org Chart of an infantry unit somewhere:
Here:
A Platoon Command Section in the US Army in 1944 would have had:
1 Platoon Leader
1 Platoon Sergeant
1 Platoon Guide
2 Messengers
A Company Command Section would have had:
1 CO
1 XO
1 First Sergeant
1 Communications Officer
1 Clerk
1 Cook
1 Quartermaster
http://www.100thww2.org/100org/rifcom.html
If we assume the Clerk, Cook, and Quartermaster have stayed at the barracks, that still leaves several guys helping out the Company Commander or Platoon Commander.
Something to consider is that Platoons were arranged very differently to what we see in 40k.
For example, a standard WW2 platoon in the British army would have been along these lines:
I've spaced them out into the smallest groups you're liable to see. For example, one of the squads would initially stay together (led by the corporal). However, once the machine gun was in position the corporal would advance along with 3 riflemen, and the lance corporal would take charge of the squad machine gun.
In essence, compared to 40k the real world had far more leaders and was also more flexible (the squads, rather than being forced to stick together were actually designed to split - which was again helped by having additional leaders).
However, we also need to remember that the whole platoon structure was based on something that 40k lacks entirely - covering fire. In real life, the squad machine gun would provide covering fire for the corporal and his ~3 riflemen to advance to the enemy and get in close to use their grenades and bayonets. In 40k though, there are no mechanics to represent covering fire, so this structure wouldn't actually work in-game.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 15:37:54
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox.
I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith.
But let's compare even further:
The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.
Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability.
So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon.
Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in.
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do.
Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it?
Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad.
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before.
He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit.
Deal with it.
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff.
They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose.
Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons.
Got it.
NO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 16:16:28
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.
No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders.
Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap.
Also, compare to other sources of extra shots:
Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase
Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6".
The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox.
I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith.
But let's compare even further:
The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.
Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability.
So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon.
Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in.
Well, why would you not have a vox if your CCS has one?
Two, Acts of Faith, at 1 per army, is absolutely atrocious. It is a rule that makes the army more effective as two units attached to the another army. Imagifiers are supposed to grant more, but it costs more to buy two, giving a fair [75%] chance of getting it off than it does to buy a second squad.
Kanluwen wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are?
Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use.
I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do.
Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it?
Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad.
A command squad isn't a special weapons squad. A command squad is the retinue of advisers and seconds-in-command, whom an Imperial Guard Officer needs to have to oversee the various functions of his Company.
Kanluwen wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc.
After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway".
An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before.
He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit.
Deal with it.
At least one Character does have an attached unit, and the oilers that come with Meks are also a part of the Mek's unit.
More importantly, I suggested that, like the Geminae Superia, the entire command section get the CHARACTER keyword. The can't be both untargetable and equipped with a crap-ton of special weapons.
Kanluwen wrote:
A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all.
A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff.
They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose.
Okay, so the prime is the equivalent of a radioman then, a relay for off-board tyranid officers [the hive ship] to communicate with their troops.
Kanluwen wrote:
Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage.
Here's what I'd do for the CCS:
Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon.
1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons.
Got it.
NO.
Why? There are already special weapons squads for the express purpose of having special weapons.
It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
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Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 18:30:45
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 19:40:38
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade Launchers are quite sadly still worthless when compared to every other option available, which is a pity because as a fluffy weapon they are cool. If they where a free upgrade over a lasgun then maybe they would be worth something but not as they are currently.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 20:30:01
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models. No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is
No, it really isn't. Orders have a cost--we have a finite number of them per Officers and a unit that receives FRSRF can't receive any other Orders. Yes, it is. If you do the math, units operating under FRF-SRF are drastically more efficient than their cost, including the cost of receiving the Order, implies. They're appropriately priced without orders, but the officers are way too cheap. Also, compare to other sources of extra shots: Imagifier: 40 points for a 50/50 chance of doubling firepower before the unit gets it's movement phase Fireblade: 42 points for +1 shot to all units within 6". The Imagifier is flat-out crap, and the Fireblade has to be in a cluster of 4 units to be worthwhile when compared with the CC, who can also borrow a Vox to increase his Orders range to 18" whereas the Imagifier or Fireblade have to be within 6".
First thing's first, the Vox only increases the range of his Orders if the receiving unit also has a Vox. I'm going to guess you knew this and left it off accidentally, because otherwise I'm going to assume from now on you're arguing in bad faith. But let's compare even further: The Fireblade affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines. Squads of Fire Warriors are outfitted entirely with those weapons, there is no Shas'ui waving a chainsword and a pistol around or a guy with a special weapon or a Heavy Weapons Team that aren't benefiting from the ability. So a cluster of 4 units is doubling out its firepower, all with the same weapon. Imagifers are able to, essentially, let you ignore the normal rule for the army they're present in. Well, why would you not have a vox if your CCS has one?
Because you're fielding Conscripts, Heavy Weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads, etc? Not everything has access to Vox. Two, Acts of Faith, at 1 per army, is absolutely atrocious. It is a rule that makes the army more effective as two units attached to the another army. Imagifiers are supposed to grant more, but it costs more to buy two, giving a fair [75%] chance of getting it off than it does to buy a second squad.
Come back to me when your army's special rules are nullified by having anything without Mechanicus in it. Kanluwen wrote: Kanluwen wrote: and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc.
You mean like how they already are? Just because they're used for special weapons doesn't mean that is the intended use. I didn't say that they aren't that, just that they wouldn't be 4 added useless guys. They'd raise the base price of the unit to an appropriate cost, add a few more wounds to it, and be able to equip upgrades that buff the Company Commander and the units around him too.
Which, again, they already do. Or were you trying unsuccessfully to say that you think a Command Squad should have MORE models in it? Having read all the way through, no--you just wanted it to conform to whatever weird standard you have set in your head that makes them unable to be a better version of a Special Weapon Squad. A command squad isn't a special weapons squad. A command squad is the retinue of advisers and seconds-in-command, whom an Imperial Guard Officer needs to have to oversee the various functions of his Company.
A Command Squad is whatever the hell the commander wants it to be. If a commander sees fit that his squad should be toting plasma guns and used to plug holes, then that's what it will be. Kanluwen wrote: Kanluwen wrote: An officer should have a command section around him anyway.
Fireblades need to have a mandatory Fire Warrior Breacher Squad, Tyranid Primes need to have a full brood of Warriors, etc. After all, "an officer should have a command section around him anyway". An Imperial Guard Officer isn't a hero. He should have an XO, a tactical advisor, a communications officer/runner, an officer responsible for ensuring the readiness of his troops.
He did before. He doesn't now. Because CHARACTERS, which the Officer is, no longer come with an attached unit. Deal with it. At least one Character does have an attached unit, and the oilers that come with Meks are also a part of the Mek's unit. More importantly, I suggested that, like the Geminae Superia, the entire command section get the CHARACTER keyword. The can't be both untargetable and equipped with a crap-ton of special weapons.
And I don't care what you suggested really. You're trying to make Guard like Sisters--they're not. Kanluwen wrote: A Tyranid Prime is bred to be all of these in one organism.
A Tyranid Prime is meant to be a Hive Mind node--that's basically all. A Fireblade is a battle-hero, and example for the fire-warriors to follow on the front, but not the commander of the unit.
Read their fluff. They might not be the commander of the unit, but that does not mean they could not be if they so chose. Okay, so the prime is the equivalent of a radioman then, a relay for off-board tyranid officers [the hive ship] to communicate with their troops.
The Prime is the equivalent of a radio which will devour you. Kanluwen wrote: Fireblades are the most grizzled and seasoned Fire Warriors of their cadre, whose skill at the Fire Warrior's art leads them to eschew battlesuit technology. They are excellent field leaders and their long experience has T'aught them exactly where to place shots to maximise damage. Here's what I'd do for the CCS: Company Command Section: 1 Imperial Guard Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen 1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Communications Officer, who carries a Vox-Caster and a Lasgun. While this model is alive orders can be issued to any infantry unit that has a Vox Caster. 1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Company Hero, who carried a Company Standard and a Lasgun, and may trade his Lasgun for a Special Weapon, Pistol, or Close Combat Weapon. 1 Veteran Guardsman may be exchanged for a Commissar
So basically, you just wanted it to be a case of toning down the special weapons. Got it. NO. Why? There are already special weapons squads for the express purpose of having special weapons.
NOPE. Special Weapon Squads aren't. They let you have 3 out of 6 guys outfitted with Special Weapons, and the remaining three still have Lasguns. It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
Why is it that whenever it comes to Guard, we always have people talking about "faux-realism" when it suits them? If you want "faux-realism", then Sergeants and Officers should be toting Lasguns not waving pistols and CCWs around. If you want "faux-realism", then Command Squads should number somewhere around 20 guys with a full half being equivalent to Scions in terms of gear and training. If you want "faux-realism", then Orders should be applying to the whole army when Vox-Casters are in use and tanks should be able to take the non-FRSRF Orders as well. If you want "faux-realism", Mortars should have variable loads. Etc, etc, etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 20:31:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 20:44:48
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade launchers are almost always worse than lasguns. I wouldn't take them if they were free. Automatically Appended Next Post: Katherine, the problem with command squads is that any intelligent opponent will shoot four t3 special ability troops off the table on turn one. They're pointless as anything but a suicide unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 20:46:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 22:01:42
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
The problem is that Grenade Launchers are abysmal full stop.
They're not just bad compared to plasmaguns, they're bad compared to *all* our other weapons.
I really don't think making them easier to take or even free is the answer. The answer is to make them worth taking in the first place.
One possibility would be to give them more shots (possibly their range, too) and make them the best long-range special weapon for guard squads.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/01 23:09:48
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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Maybe if they had more grenade options. Like, suppression/concussion grenades. They don't do any damage but the target unit suffers -1 to their to hit rolls and can't fire overwatch. Only works on infantry. These are the things that snare mines are apparently made out of. Just a thought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 07:07:53
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Kanluwen wrote:
It's not about toning down the special weapons, though. It's about faux-realism. Since officers aren't a lone man trying to direct a whole army, he should always have his cadre of friends about him. The entire unit is one big character.
Why is it that whenever it comes to Guard, we always have people talking about "faux-realism" when it suits them?
If you want "faux-realism", then Sergeants and Officers should be toting Lasguns not waving pistols and CCWs around.
If you want "faux-realism", then Command Squads should number somewhere around 20 guys with a full half being equivalent to Scions in terms of gear and training.
If you want "faux-realism", then Orders should be applying to the whole army when Vox-Casters are in use and tanks should be able to take the non-FRSRF Orders as well.
If you want "faux-realism", Mortars should have variable loads.
Etc, etc, etc.
Canticles is absolutely the way all army special abilities should work. Also, it's by detachment, not army.
I'm not trying to make Guard like Sisters. If anything, this change would make them even more distinct, and re-enforce the idea that the IG isn't comprised of superhuman badasses or fanatics with actual divine intervention on their side, but ordinary, non-heroic, non-special soldiers holding the line.
And with regards to faux-realism:
Yes.
No, because the CCS members are special-ops badasses.
Yes, sort of. It doesn't make sense at all for Orders to apply to the whole army, but CC's should be able to order artillery, tanks, and air support.
So should the rest of the artillery and tanks. I'd love to see a varied selection of artillery ammunition, from base bleed for extended range to smoke shells. Tanks should have at least AP and HE shells available.
But Artillery shells would be a lot of work for fairly little benefit, the least we can do is stop this nonsense with Command Squads and Orders, which would absolutely do wonders for reducing the appearance of our OP-ness without actually fundamentally damaging the army's performance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
argonak wrote: Future War Cultist wrote:How do you guys feel about grenade launchers these days? Do they still fail to compete against plasma guns? See I was thinking, what if they didn't have to compete against plasma guns? What if we took a cue out of the Primarus intercessor's book and made grenade launchers a separate upgrade from regular special weapons? And make it so that a model with a grenade launcher who 'throws' a grenade has a range of 24"? So your infantry squad can have a grenade launcher in addition to a flamer/melta/sniper/plasma? This is something I've literally just came up with so it may not be 100% well thought out.
Grenade launchers are almost always worse than lasguns. I wouldn't take them if they were free.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Katherine, the problem with command squads is that any intelligent opponent will shoot four t3 special ability troops off the table on turn one. They're pointless as anything but a suicide unit.
Not if the entire unit has the Character keyword.
This can be done. Characters don't have to be alone, since Meks can have Oilers and Celestine can have Geminae.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/02 07:13:59
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 08:27:40
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Dakka Veteran
Stockholm
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Grenade Launchers are terrible because, as someone said, they are a solution in search of a problem. You have limited slots to take a special weapon, so you pay an opportunity cost when taking any of them. But the rest of them have a clearly defined niche.
The meltagun is good against vehicles and monsters.
The plasma gun is good against most things, but with overcharge excels against harder targets
A sniper rifle is able to damage characters
A grenade launcher deals with light infantry and does somewhat well against light vehicles.
A flamer deals with infantry in close range, and acts as charge deterren.
Problem is, AM has from what I've seen always been able to deal with infantry in other ways. A FRFSRF lasgun is better than the frag grenade from the grenade launcher, and if you buy it for the krak grenade, you might as well get a weapon that deals with heavier stuff as well (like a meltagun or plasma gun). Even if the grenade launcher is free, you have to pay points for the unit itself and then its usually more efficient to take another option. Some fire support squads with free GLs might be worth it (24 points for 3-4 GLs could have some use), but its never an attractive option for line infantry.
Giving infantry the ability to take 1 flamer or grenade launcher and in addition take 1 plasma gun or meltagun might help.
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~5000 points of IG and DKoK
I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 11:30:30
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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That's what I was thinking. The grenade launcher could be a separate (and free?) upgrade in addition to the other specials which have much more defined roles. Like I was saying, an infantry squad could take a GL in addition to one of the other specials. And I know what could be brought in to replace its spot on that special list...the good old heavy stubber!
Again, my idea for a GL was to make it a range bonusto throwing a grenade, just like Marine auxiliary GLs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 18:39:05
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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1) New rough rider models, possibly with a napoleonic lancer theme
2) More regiments in plastic e.g praetorians, mordians
3) Smaller artillery, not tank mounted, in plastic, like the kreig heavy mortar
4) Regimental tactics
5) another macharian crusade in the fluff
6) more fortifications for guard
7) a new infantry kit with the options for several special weapons, like plasma guns, or sergeant weapons. Even if the released upgrade sprues with just a bunch of plasma/melts I would be happy
8) make the death strike actually worth taking
I know all of these won't be implemented, especially seeing as games workshops focus seems to be on girlymans suck-ups and chaos, but it would be nice to see the actual humans get some attention
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Owz it work.
Coz I sez it doz, dats why |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 18:48:36
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Being able to take an additional GL for your guard squad alongside a special and/or heavy weapon sounds like a nice solution. Also would help encourage people to take infantry squads instead of constantly spamming conscripts or scions.
It's sad that, even though guardsmen are actually rather good this edition, they're still outshined.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 18:59:27
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Melissia wrote:Being able to take an additional GL for your guard squad alongside a special and/or heavy weapon sounds like a nice solution. Also would help encourage people to take infantry squads instead of constantly spamming conscripts or scions.
Why would anyone bother with that?
Straight-up, if I had to choose between a Lasgun or a Grenade Launcher in addition to the special/heavy...I'd keep the damn Lasgun.
It's sad that, even though guardsmen are actually rather good this edition, they're still outshined.
"Good" is relative.
They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 19:00:44
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/08/02 19:03:08
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Melissia wrote: Kanluwen wrote:They're not terrible, but they're basically Tactical Marines in a 5+ save with T3.
You're really underselling tacticals here.
Both units are unfocused with the ability to take options that make them lose what little focus they have for more overgeneralization.
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