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I think the moment you asked him to do this personal, very specific, favor for you it stopped being about him as a manager and began to be about him, as a person.
While he may always be representing GW even when he isn't at work, he still has a personal life. He doesn't have to do anything for you that he doesn't feel right in doing. It doesn't matter how he talked to after you became agitated with his backing out on you. He was speaking as himself and not as a GW employee.
You need to let it go. You should have let it go when he said he couldn't. All you need, really, are print outs of the models from GW and their price for case.
I'm sorry for your situation, it sucks. It's just not fare to lump the burden of this case on him, a random person.
Frankly I'm surprised he even agreed in the first place, the items lost were items with a current retail value which as you have stated you did not buy from him, so his "expert" opinion on the value could be proven wrong with ease if it could be verified that he did not witness the purchase and that they are available elsewhere at a discount. No part of his job covers being an expert witness for a crime that did not occur on his premise. You asked a favour of him as a person, you feel he as a person let you down but that isn't a GW problem, it's a personal issue between two individuals. Most managers I know would of flat turned out down as it isn't their job or any of their business,
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Why ask for him as an expert witness when you could easily have pulled up the GW website to prove the value of models themselves. Also to value your time to paint models you could pull up several quotes from painting studios.
For all we know he could have mentioned to his boss that he was going to appear as an expert witness and GW told him he could not do it.
Generally speaking with regards to expert testimony, your "expert" is usually compensated for their time. If your expert is doing it to you as a favor that brings his testimony in question as to whether he's an impartial expert witness.
Having said that small claims court is really hit or miss with regards to how the cases go. It's difficult to convince normal people, let alone a judge, that the bits of plastic and metal we push around are worth so much, and I seriously doubt your expert testimony would have changed anything. You would have been better off with a written submission of the value of the objects and that they can't be fixed by him, but honestly, the problem with niche hobbies is people don't understand the costs they entail.
I think your situation just spiraled out of control and you probably should have cut your losses in the first message exchange. You really should have stopped after he said he can't mix business and personal.
Having said that, his exchange with you in person was clearly uncalled for.
quote=Elric Greywolf 733918 9512842 51cf979ac4b7f4baf8a97b33a3cd0054.png]So I recently had a problem with a GW store manager. Here's what happened. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
I was recently asked to not play at my local GW shop. I have always been a valiant supporter of 40k and the model hobby, and while I intellectually know that his behaviour is not condoned by GW, emotionally this has shaken my like of the company. If this is how immaturely managers act, then what's next?
The setup to this situation started a few weeks ago. I had a smalls claims case about my models--they were damaged in a car accident (other driver's fault) and insurance was unwilling to replace my models.
Three weeks before the court date, 24 June, I asked the local GW manager if he would be willing to testify as to the valuation of my models and their paint job as a sort of "expert witness."
"Sure thing," he said. "It's my day off."
"It's kinda far away," I said. "Are you sure you can drive that far?"
"No problem, I'll be there," he said.
A week before court, Monday 10 July, I emailed him all the relevant info: what questions I'd ask, what models I needed replaced, court address, expression of gratitude for his help, etc. Below is a copy of the messages we exchanged:
ME:
Hey [Manager], regarding the court date for my models: It's Monday, [date].
I'll be arguing that the insurance company needs to pay to replace my models, which I consider to be broken beyond repair.
I'll ask you whether you, as a model-company employee, would agree that my models cannot be repaired. I've got pics of the damage if you'd like to see, but basically it's because the broken pieces are swords, ankles, horns, and other bits that are too small to glue back together.
I'll also ask whether glueing pieces that have previously broken keeps them as secure, or if repairs weaken the piece and make them prone to breaking again in the future.
I'll ask if the pricing on replacement models is correct (see below for list of models).
I'll ask if you think the professional painting prices I've quoted are reasonable, based on getting my models back to where I had them. (ie. does the price quoted reflect my own painting level.)
Here's the address of the court: ___________.
Please be there at 9am. I'll buy you lunch after or next time I'm in the shop!
2x Lords of Change
1x Soul Grinder
1x SM Librarian
1x SM Terminator Librarian
2x Inquisition Crusaders
10x Temple Flameguard (thsee are Warmahordes models, but comparable to GW)
2x Inquisition Death Cult Assassins
3x Grey Knight Dreadknights
2x Mechanicus Kataphrons
1x Mechanicus Tech-Priest
1x Eldar Autarch with Wings
5x Grey Knight Purifiers
1x Daemon Prince
1x Valkyrie
1x Land Raider
5x SM Sternguard
20x Bloodletters
20x Daemonettes
9x Tzeentch Screamers
10x Slaanesh Seekers
1x Slaanesh Lord on Mount
= $1432
MANAGER:
Sorry, dude - I forgot all about it and have plans with my girl to go [on holiday] next Monday.
ME:
Well it's like $4000 on the line for me, can I pay you to witness?
MANAGER:
I'm afraid not - my integrity has already taken a recent hit by mixing business and personal, I've got to fly straight.
Sorry for forgetting, but it is unwise for me to get involved presently.
ME:
Wow, [Manager], I wish you would've told me this beforehand.
I also wouldn't count being an "expert witness" for a trial regarding the value of miniatures as anything EXCEPT strictly business.
This is really going to screw me over, and I was definitely counting on your promised help. I can't believe you'd do this to anyone.
MANAGER:
I apologized for forgetting, but if I'm such an integral part of your case, why are you just now getting back in touch with me regarding it? Don't try to guilt trip me for a second. I month ago I said sure, I never said I promised anything.
You act SO betrayed - "Can't believe I'd do this to anyone" ? What did I do exactly? Remind me, when is the last time you did a massive favor for me or my store? Or even a small favor?
You're right, I'm a stand up guy and almost always do what I say. The almost being when the person wants me jeopardize my integrity, the very thing that makes me dependable in the first place.
Final words: The size of your favor is reserved for only my closest of friends, and you didn't buy those models from me. That's the personal and the business.
ME:
No, [Manager], I didn't buy those models from you. That's because I bought them before [your shop] was open. I've been incredibly poor this past year, mostly from being unemployed and dealing with clinical depression. This was my big chance to get my hobby back on track. Your testimony would have cinched that for me.
Testifying in a court case about the value of GW models...I have no idea how that would ever jeopardize your integrity.
Regarding favors, I've offered, several times, to cover shifts for you at the shop. Every weekend I'm in there, I offer to buy you a drink. I talk up [your shop] every chance I get, and encourage people to come check it out and play and buy models. Those are the only things I can think of that I can do for you, since we don't have a relationship outside the shop.
But I won't mention it again.
MANAGER:
Then don't.
I'm being nice and patient right now, don't push it a bit.
It was unpleasant, and very disappointing that he had broken his word. His responses were very defensive, very self-righteous, and overall very over-the-top compared to my messages. Plus I had $4000 riding on this, a huge chunk of money invested in my favourite hobby.
Furthermore, his messages to me, in addition to his past behaviour towards me, made it abundantly clear that he does not want to be my friend, and that he thinks of me only in terms of favours, ie. what he can get out of me. It is not a good feeling, to have a year's worth of cordiality and like turned nasty and mean.
Sad and disappointing though it was, I thought that would be the end of it.
Friday afternoon I came to the shop to look for a game. When I showed up, no one else was inside, so I sat outside at a cafe and read my book, waiting for someone to come in ready to play.
After about an hour (slow game day I suppose), the manager came outside to go to lunch. I took out a headphone to greet him, and he immediately ripped into me. He said it was "unmanly" to sit outside. He said he didn't want me in his shop, and he said he felt sorry for pathetic people
"Are you calling me pathetic?" I asked.
"I am looking at a pathetic person," he answered, staring me in the eye. "I don't want you in the store today, and I don't want to see you this weekend."
In the end of all this, I have made a resolution: I will never again buy a model from that GW shop, and I will never recommend anyone else to do so either. In fact, I will, at all opportunities, tell others about the money savings on GW products that can be had at different shops in town.
This whole situation here looks like a bonified, patented, Dixie-fried.... Freakshow.
How old are you, seriously? This guy, as well? what is he, like 13-14?
This guy was never your friend. You shouldn't have even entertained this guy for anything, let alone a court case, nor should you think that just because he owns a shop he cares about you.
YOU are a customer, he is in business to sell. That's pretty much as far as the "Relationship" goes.
Was he wrong? Of course he was, but then again, that's what is confused as "Friend", and "Friendly" here. You just made it fact when you pressed that button.
Far as he is concerned, YOU need to fire and forget. Go find another shop, and make sure you stick it to him in any chance that you can get. call up GW a few times and complain, drop off a bag of !@#$ on the door step, leave negative feedback, tell others of your ordeal, and what a "Stand up" guy he is.
But most of all- remember this as a life lesson, because it doesn't change.
The Customer is an !@#$.
No good deed should go unpunished.
You SHOULD contact GW, and see what they tell you....
Make sure that you post the follow up, color me curious.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Badger an employee until he loses his cool, even though he's off the clock, and then get him fired. That will surely generate the karma required to replace your minis.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Nah, I'm also from Denver and have a pretty good idea who both parties of this are. It's not only possible, but not really surprising.
I think that personal insults from the GW manager are a step too far, and is quite unprofessional, even outside the store.
However, he was well within his rights to refuse your request to appear in court on your behalf. There well may have been company policy that prevented him from doing so, and trying to force or guilt him into it wasn't going to end well.
It is unfortunate that he waited until the last moment to cancel, but still, there's nothing he could have said that you couldn't have printed off of their website.
In the end, I hope that your court date went well regardless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 22:45:35
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
I was a GW store manager for a bit and ran other retails locations for another bigger bit. So glad I'm not in retail anymore. Here are a couple of random comments.
1. Regardless of how friendly he or she seems, the manager is most likely not your friend. How many times did you hang out where he wasn't literally being paid to spend time with you? I know that sounds harsh, but it's fairly rare to become actual friends. It happens, but it's rare.
2. The manager should have just said no in the first place. It's always best to keep the employee/customer relationship professional. Customer needs a ride home? Tell them to use Uber.
3. The customer should have accepted the no gracefully when it did occur. The manager made other plans. It happens. He owes you nothing.
4. The manager was well within his rights as a private citizen, on his own time, to snap at someone who he felt was badgering him for a favor and potentially causing problems for him at work.
5. The manager is definitely not going to get in trouble for being snarky with a GW customer in a non-GW location when he's off the clock. Sure, it's unprofessional, but he wasn't on the clock. Plus... this is how the conversation goes.
"Dude, I got a call from some guy saying you called him pathetic. What happened?"
"OMG... so this dude, who never buys anything by the way, keeps badgering me to cancel my vacation and be a witness for some court trial. Then he hovers around and waits outside my store like a creeper and basically jumps on me when I went to lunch. So yeah, I snapped at him."
"Wait, so this didn't happen in the store?"
"Nope."
"And you weren't on the clock?"
"Nope."
"And there were no other customers around?"
"Nope."
"Ugh... ok. Just try to avoid him. If he continues to cause issues, just ask him to leave. If he won't leave, call the cops."
I've literally had this conversation multiple times, from both sides.
It sucks, but you went about this the wrong way. You should probably have just printed out retail price screenshots from GW's website along with painting service pricing from a variety of the larger painting services. I.e., these 10 models cost $50 retail plus $15/model to paint to a 'table standard'. I'm asking for $200 as the replacement cost. No need for a witness. In fact, the average GW store manager has literally no professional experience in buying or selling painted models. He's a terrible choice for a 'star witness'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Sticking it online. Real classy. You asked him to do you a favour and now he's not, as he's got other things to do. Then you push it.
Would wager there's more context around this.
I tend to agree. Would love to hear the manager's side.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 20:00:20
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
I hate to be that guy, but is this conversation even allowed? I thought we had to take stuff like this to our personal blogs. That's what I've been told before the thread in question was locked.
But yeah, whilst it was a bit much to expect him to be a witness for you, he was bang out of line. Especially if he was still in the company uniform.
EDIT: I'm so blind! I thought this was in off topic but it's in dakka discussions!
Sorry, my bad, just ignore me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 12:02:55
Damn, if I knew I could call every pathetic customer in our GW store pathetic I'd still be there going down the list!
Seriously, let it go. Your hounding of an employee caused all of this. That and your expectation to get thousands of dollars out of an insurance company for your broken toys. Looks like you were expecting a big payout and didn't get it and blamed your no-show "expert witness".
Hell, I'd hazard a guess that you were bragging about all the money you'd get and what you were going to buy (online from what it sounds like) in the store and the manager got tired of hearing about it and decided to distance himself. From your description and admitted actions, you DO sound pathetic.
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
Now at work when people from CO call in wondering why the liability premium increased I can say because we paid 1000's of dollars to replace toy figures in your area.
Future War Cultist wrote: I hate to be that guy, but is this conversation even allowed? I thought we had to take stuff like this to our personal blogs. That's what I've been told before the thread in question was locked.
But yeah, whilst it was a bit much to expect him to be a witness for you, he was bang out of line. Especially if he was still in the company uniform.
EDIT: I'm so blind! I thought this was in off topic but it's in dakka discussions!
Sorry, my bad, just ignore me.
We don't actually have the whole story. There are some massive red flags, to be honest.
1. OP offering to cover shifts? That's not remotely how this works in the US. The manager would be instantly fired if his boss found out that he turned the keys over to a customer and took a day off. OP making the offer shows a general lack of understanding of his role in the store (i.e., customer).
2. OP completely glossing over the manager's objection that there was a recent issue where he mixed business and personal causing him to say no this time. What happened? It's very possible that the manager was specifically told by his boss to treat customers like customers and not like friends. This is a super common mistake for first time managers... the kind GW loves to hire (experienced applicants generally leave when they see the pay).
3. OP is asking for a pretty major favor from someone who really isn't a friend. "...we don't have a relationship outside the shop". It shouldn't be a surprise that the answer was no.
4. OP lists the retail value of the models as $1432. He's looking to get $4000. Why? Is he going to pay someone to assemble and paint the models? GW sells the models on sprues specifically so that people can assemble and paint them. Take a look at eBay. Unless the model is painted to an amazingly high standard in one of the official paint schemes... it's almost universally worth less than the retail price. Asking for full retail PLUS 180% extra seems out of line with what you see in the secondary market for average painted models.
Look, I feel bad for the OP. Sounds like he's going through a rough patch. Unemployment sucks. Depression sucks. Car accidents suck. I've been there. I just worry that his expectations are unreasonable in this instance. Sure, the manager snapped and shouldn't have, but we don't know the whole story. The manager may very well have been showing serious restraint. Then again, this is Dakka. There are a kajillion threads that read like "manager at so and so store refused to go above and beyond for me, so now I'm going to try to destroy his store and get him fired".
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: 4. OP lists the retail value of the models as $1432. He's looking to get $4000. Why? Is he going to pay someone to assemble and paint the models? GW sells the models on sprues specifically so that people can assemble and paint them. Take a look at eBay. Unless the model is painted to an amazingly high standard in one of the official paint schemes... it's almost universally worth less than the retail price. Asking for full retail PLUS 180% extra seems out of line with what you see in the secondary market for average painted models.
This is the bit that confuses me, the OP states he is looking to reboot his hobby. Getting the retail value of the figures (and the paint/glue/brushes you exhausted on assembling them) sounds like a great way to reboot to me.
In the UK car insurance companies like to replace like for like. Looking at the OP's gallery, his miniature are nice enough, but they are just standard second hand miniatures (which on ebay is typically worth 50% of retail), not pro painted.
Seeing as he wants to get back into hobbying, getting the price of retail (including consumable materials) seems like a really good deal to what he might get (assuming he can convince the insurer the figures are worth anything at all. As you say the value is usually in the assembly/painting, not the plastic nor finished product.
Have you filed an appeal with the insurance company, or a complaint with your state's department of insurance? I work in compliance for a major insurance company, and you're more likely to get results that way than in a lawsuit, particularly since you're representing yourself.
Also, sorry to say, retail is about all you can expect. Though if you get that you effectively get 15% for your time, thanks to online discounts. How bad was this accident that models in cases were destroyed beyond repair?
You are certainly wrong in expecting his testemony would have done a whole hell of alot. Mean to say, do you really think he would have convinced the court to find for $4000 in your favor, just for saying "YES your honor. These stupidly over priced toys are indeed worth what I, a retail manager, say they are worth. Honest."
And did you honestly try to shame him by hinting that you intended spending the money on more stupidly over priced toys at his shop?
The lack of further input from the OP has me thinking this is bogus, or if its legit, OP doesn't want to elaborate on some stuff that doesn't make sense and is afraid to get called out on it.
Fake news?
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I'd say more likely the anticipation was for a big digital hug, and the reaction of the thread in general being "well, dur, what did you expect?" and similar responses has deterred further input.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
As someone who's had minis or related things stolen (twice), losing models is a sucky, sucky situation to be in. I hope you were able to recover the costs for them.
That all being said, I feel like there is a real lack of understanding or comprehension or story in this. My bet is on ignorance rather than malice.
I'm wondering if the OP is reading the relationship he and the store manager had incorrectly; if he's offering to cover shifts (or even buy drinks)...well, those sound almost like jokes I'd make, or things I probably wouldn't take too seriously in the manager's shoes. He might not have taken the witness request a serious one, and then made up an excuse to back off. And I get why he wouldn't want to - there are all sorts of weird things around it, not to mention that being an expert on things like painting prices isn't his position. Either way, it definitely escalated with frustration on both ends and no attempts to deescalate the situation
As far as the other stuff, it definitely sounds unprofessional and horrible, but because of the potential for misunderstandings in the above section, I'm wondering how literal the quotes here were (or if it was something misunderstood). The OP mentioned being depressed, and depression has a real way of messing with our heads, like making us feel like something neutral is a little bad, or a little bad is extremely so.
Either way, I hope the OP is able to get back what was lost, and get help with the areas he's struggling.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/01 22:59:17
Even taken at face value, this story doesn't paint a pretty picture of the OP. That's taking it at face value. I'm pretty sure that we're not seeing everything either.
After the manager said he couldn't do it because he got in trouble mixing business and personal, it should have been dropped (honestly, I wonder if GW corporate would have been happy with one of their store managers acting as an expert witness on a court case without being notified and approving of it).
As to the incident outside the store afterward, I'm guessing GW managers still wear shirts with the GW logo and name on them (haven't been in one in years)? I mean, if the story's true, the manager most likely ripped into him right in front of the store, while wearing a shirt emblazoned with the company name and logo. When I used to work retail, that would have been a write up at best.
I don't really find the story of the manager coming out and ripping into the OP believable. That's not something that people do without a reason for it.
It's strange that the OP said he went to the shop first but then seems to indicate that he first saw the manager when sat in the cafe. How could he have gone to the shop and not been greeted by the manager there? Why wouldn't the manager have just banned the OP from the shop then? Why lay into the guy rather than just ban the OP?
