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I know this is going to sound dumb but I read this thread more out of curiosity. I was just getting my feet wet in 5th and never really followed much Grey Knight lore, even though the models were awesome. But regardless of whether Draigo is stuck in the warp per 5th or just got sucked in per 7th, who the hell is actually leading the Grey Knights right now? And iirc doesn't he show up in Pandorax? is that before or after he's sucked into the warp?

Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

My mental image is a bunch of them standing around waiting for the dice to stop spinning. Made me laugh.

 Desubot wrote:
He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

Lots of characters (especially Space Marines) rarely lose. It's part of their engineering as Heroes, and in this case literal engineering for the Space Marines. Sure they lose on occasion (Calgar lost all his limbs, Yarrick lost his arm, Helbrecht lost a hand, Ghaz lost his body, Straken lost an arm...) but we don't care about those losses and like all these characters. I'm glad we don't have so many Lamenters and Crimson Fists. That makes those few that suck but still keep going a little special.

 ILegion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Good point. Probably no-one. They just roll a d6 to see which conflict they turn up to...

My mental image is a bunch of them standing around waiting for the dice to stop spinning. Made me laugh.

Cocked. Roll again...

 Desubot wrote:
He has no flaws, basicly never loses, even against primarch level odds.

the only thing that he has going for not being a mary sue which isnt all that much is his circumstances of being trapped. thats hardly anything

This. Draigo being trapped in the Warp is not a character flaw. It has zilch to do with his character (i.e personality/abilities). It would be a sucky situation, were it not for the fact that being trapped in the Warp provides the perfect environment for all of his abilities to be demonstrated to their fullest. Effectively the "downside" of being trapped in the warp just serves as a narrative device to demonstrate how amazing and powerful and kewl he is, rather than to, say, make a commentary on the inherent flaws of adhering to a super strict philosophy blindly.

It is akin to Rama being trapped in the apartment block in The Raid. He is in a bad situation but that situation serves to highlight his exceptional abilities rather than expose character weaknesses.

in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

He did. He specifically prohibited anyone to come with to Acralem to face Mkar the second instance, he went alone. His reasoning was that his fate was sealed and no sense letting others get in the firing line. But if he had brought others perhaps they'd have been able to change things.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness it's hard to encapsulate flaws in a 1 page paragraph summery. as flaws are often character flaws etc. for example, maybe the character had a Martyr complex that caused him to walk into the trap that got him sent to the warp etc

He did. He specifically prohibited anyone to come with to Acralem to face Mkar the second instance, he went alone. His reasoning was that his fate was sealed and no sense letting others get in the firing line. But if he had brought others perhaps they'd have been able to change things.

thats why I mentioned it, it's arguably a case of Dragio walking into danger he proably should have instead delegated someone else for.

Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

 Mangod wrote:
Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

real space.

 Mangod wrote:
Quick question regarding the 5th Ed. Draigo Vs. Mortarion thing: did that fight take place in realspace, or in the Warp?

Because Draigo defeating a Daemon Primarch on said Primarch's home turf opens an entire new can of worms for me...

In real space, armed with righteous vengeance and the Daemon's True Name, and literal destiny on his side.

And to be fair, Mortarion did kill the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights in the same battle.

I love that "literal destiny" is somehow being touted as a reason he's not a Mary Sue.

In other words, his Mary-Sueness made canon is a reason he is not mary sue.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love that "literal destiny" is somehow being touted as a reason he's not a Mary Sue.

In other words, his Mary-Sueness made canon is a reason he is not mary sue.

It is. Because there is nothing particular special except Mkar got first dibbs on him. Thats it. I'm sure other GK are equally pure (Purifiers) or good fighters. But Draigo got buggsied by Mkar so he gets a pass

That might count for a guy who doesn't go and knock over Nurgle's plant pots, but Draigo did that. I'm pretty sure he could still be alive, technically, and the host to every space STD Nurgle can pass his way. If Nurgle even cared about the claim some Daemon Prince had made.

And if he goes and kicks over Khorne's skullpile than M'kar needs to go find himself a new destiny.

Heck, even Mortarion should be trying to mess with him. There's a lot of space between 'Free in the Warp' and 'Dead' for Draigo to occupy, and he should be exploiting it. For example, de-limbing him, sticking him a Dreadnaught sarcophagus to keep him alive, then putting that Sarchoagus somewhere with a good few of what's happening out in Real Space. He's alive...he would just really, really wish he wasn't.

...and yes, I know Huron Blackheart used that idea first.

Draigo is alive, free and smashing things up in the Warp because he has all the powers and plot armour of a 14 year old teen with a magical wand and talking pet.

Actually, I kinda agree with Jon about that.

I remember reading one piece of fluff about the black crusade. There was some saint who was supposed to rise up and be a key figure when the end times are coming. One of the black crusade had Abaddon go and absolutely destroy the said saint's resting place. So, in that sense, that particular destiny is no longer valid.

Destiny can be changed. And I would argue that any of the chaos god's will as well as that of a sufficiently powerful daemon primarch should be able to trump M'kar's "first dibs" destiny. Not happy about that? then M'kar should go and take that up with his chaos god or that particular primarch daemon. I am sure he would find the lesson a very interesting one.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
That might count for a guy who doesn't go and knock over Nurgle's plant pots, but Draigo did that. I'm pretty sure he could still be alive, technically, and the host to every space STD Nurgle can pass his way. If Nurgle even cared about the claim some Daemon Prince had made.

And if he goes and kicks over Khorne's skullpile than M'kar needs to go find himself a new destiny.

Heck, even Mortarion should be trying to mess with him. There's a lot of space between 'Free in the Warp' and 'Dead' for Draigo to occupy, and he should be exploiting it. For example, de-limbing him, sticking him a Dreadnaught sarcophagus to keep him alive, then putting that Sarchoagus somewhere with a good few of what's happening out in Real Space. He's alive...he would just really, really wish he wasn't.

...and yes, I know Huron Blackheart used that idea first.

Draigo is alive, free and smashing things up in the Warp because he has all the powers and plot armour of a 14 year old teen with a magical wand and talking pet.

Why would anyone in the Warp bother with any of that? As mentioned numerous times, his feats are pointless. If he burns the garden it'll just grow back like it never happened. He's a minor annoyance at best, a small case of herpes at best.

Also,the Chaos Gods dont have full control of the Warp. It has its own rules and even they must obey. Such as blood feuds, destiny, emotion, and all the other things that dont apply to our realm. If the Chaos Gods had utter control over the Warp to override its laws, they'd simply snuff out the mind of anyone who entered it, like Grey Knights or the Emperor. They'd be able to just wish away any threats like Gork and Mork. So yes,if a Daemon Prince did the right ritual to curse Draigo, its property of Mkar, hands off.

And I'm gonna restate this again: Fateweaver couldnt even SEE Draigo along any strands of time. Draigo was removed from his omniscient vision and that's how he won that battle. Mortarion still cant touch him. No one can. But he can do nothing and THAT is the point.

Why wouldn't anyone in the Warp do that? I mean, they're called Daemons for a reason. Mortarion is stated as being pretty miffed at having a Grey Knight Grandmaster's name carved into his heart and isn't renowned for his level and forgiving temperant. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's stated Mortation fully intends to kill him.

I admit, I haven't owned a Grey Knight codex since the 5th edition one came out, and sold that one shortly after, so I'm partially running on memories and what I can find on the web...but Draigo has had an effect, hasn't he? He may walk the Warp but he shows up in reality often enough to cause issues, and the rules of the Warp don't function there

Equally, I'm relatively certain the laws of the Warp are quite...fluid. I mean, it's called Chaos for a reason. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne.

And finally...isn't M'kar completely dead now, even by Daemon standards, obliterated by Mini-Papa Smurf himself Calgar? Apparently in the Chapter's Due. Which rather suggests that destiny can be altered, given sufficient levels of plot.

I'll be honest - bolting half of Brother-Captain Stern's storyline onto Draigo wasn't the way to resolve the character. Breaking him was. Have him suffer defeat after defeat. Maybe even Dreadnaught him, although given how nice his model is...but he needs to loose - not ironically, but utterly, in a way that would break a normal marine. And then, after being bolted back together, he can be tempered by the experience.

Right now, he may not have a direct impact on the Warp - but he pops out often enough that he can sure as hell have one in the Materium, which rather negates that weakness. His 'Destiny' - to be killed by a dead daemon - makes him effectively unkillable. I mean, that right there is pretty damned Mary Sue.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Why wouldn't anyone in the Warp do that? I mean, they're called Daemons for a reason. Mortarion is stated as being pretty miffed at having a Grey Knight Grandmaster's name carved into his heart and isn't renowned for his level and forgiving temperant. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's stated Mortation fully intends to kill him.

I admit, I haven't owned a Grey Knight codex since the 5th edition one came out, and sold that one shortly after, so I'm partially running on memories and what I can find on the web...but Draigo has had an effect, hasn't he? He may walk the Warp but he shows up in reality often enough to cause issues, and the rules of the Warp don't function there

Equally, I'm relatively certain the laws of the Warp are quite...fluid. I mean, it's called Chaos for a reason. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne.

And finally...isn't M'kar completely dead now, even by Daemon standards, obliterated by Mini-Papa Smurf himself Calgar? Apparently in the Chapter's Due. Which rather suggests that destiny can be altered, given sufficient levels of plot.

I'll be honest - bolting half of Brother-Captain Stern's storyline onto Draigo wasn't the way to resolve the character. Breaking him was. Have him suffer defeat after defeat. Maybe even Dreadnaught him, although given how nice his model is...but he needs to loose - not ironically, but utterly, in a way that would break a normal marine. And then, after being bolted back together, he can be tempered by the experience.

Right now, he may not have a direct impact on the Warp - but he pops out often enough that he can sure as hell have one in the Materium, which rather negates that weakness. His 'Destiny' - to be killed by a dead daemon - makes him effectively unkillable. I mean, that right there is pretty damned Mary Sue.

Does he actually cause issues? He shows up once every couple decades and helps stop an incursion. What does that do? Jack. The Daemons just go back to the Warp with an axe to grind. They still come back. All that does is give the GK hope that their leader is still alive and stops them from electing a new one. He cant use it to his advantage and he can't do anything with his power. He's a non-entity in the Great Game. He's been completely removed from the equation.

The laws of the Warp are quite fluid, but fluid still flows. Bloodthirsters can attack Khorne but aren't Bloodthirsters a pure embodiment of aggression, rage, fighting and hatred? What kind of war god would prohibit his warriors from attacking him? Destiny can be altered but not changed. Mkar is fully dead, he suffered True Death. But that doesn't mean Draigo's destiny to die at Mkar's hand is changed. Timetravel is a thing. Perhaps Draigo goes back to a point in time where Mkar exists or perhaps he is doomed to wander the Warp until time and realspace collapse and reality ceases to be real and all the Chaos Gods and their minions are dead and all of existance is just Draigo, alone for all eternity in the Warp? Who knows?

As for your "solution," how is that NOT Mary Sue? Strong Character gets challenged, then he gets broken, then he comes back stronger than ever or falls into darkness. Its a trope done a million and one times in every possible genre and medium. Defeat? What would that do? Nothing. Defeat means death and dead characters are dead and do nothing. Dreadnought him? You mean relegate him to the fringes of fluff as a footnote, only activated once every few thousand years to give a bit of wisdom and utterly wreck everything he comes across? I thought that was the problem in the first place?

I suppose it's the difference between a character who has earned there power and one whose had it handed to them. Draigo falls into the second category - he's simply that awesome because of destiny. Other characters earn it a little more by having to struggle. But we've seen no struggle from Draigo. I should point out, there's not way to truly de-Sue that character, but people will be more accepting if he has to eat some humble pie.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

As far as I know Pandorax is set before Draigo got shot into the Warp.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

And yeah, I'm pretty sure he can have an effect. I mean, he led the Grey Knights in the Pandorax campaign, yes? Even got to shout at Azrael, I understand. We don't really know how often he gets to show up, as I understand it.

As far as I know Pandorax is set before Draigo got shot into the Warp.

Yes. Anything in the 41st Millennium is pre-curse. He got trapped in 999M41, so any example of him leading the GK after his exile would take place in M42.

Draigo is my Spiritual Liege.

Draigo is the Avatar of the Emperor.

Draigo is everything we all aspire to and more.

If there is one word I would like to see retired from warhammer 40k then it's "spiritual liege".

Dont read the badly written fluff on him from 5th edition to current.

Read/listen to Flight of Esienstein. Then The Sigilite, Then the Garro-First knight series. And truly believe Garro was 'reborn' into Draigo, a Grey Knight, through the Sigilite.

Then Draigo becomes awesome.

 Nerak wrote:
If there is one word I would like to see retired from warhammer 40k then it's "spiritual liege".

at this point it's reached a meme status that I don't think is going away

People aren't even using it right...

Personally, I like to interpret Draigo as a mortal who's gone completely insane through warp exposure. Every now and again he gets spat back out where he just babbles incoherently about how he cut through the garden of nurgle, and how he carved his name onto the heart of a daemon primarch.

Little more than the ravings of a complete and total lunatic. Tragic in his own way, as there may well be a kernel of truth in what he says, but the vast majority is just the rambling diatribe of a raving madman punctuated by brief and heartbreaking moments of clarity.

That's what happens when you spend any length of time in the warp.