Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Preorder: August 5th / Release: August 12th)

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**Galas**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Where are you seeing a "renegades" distinction?

As a serious Red Corsairs fan, I'd be perfectly happy with just actually getting a legion-style rule. (I still have zero idea why anyone thought Crimson Slaughter needed to exist when there were already red CSMs who were demon-friendly (Word Bearers); red CSMs who liked slaughter (World Eaters); and red CSMs who were recent traitors who became Chaos-y very quickly (Red Corsairs); and even red recent CSMs who like slaughter (Skulltakers-FW)... making up around a third of major CSM varieties. /rant)

In a perfect iteration, I think it would be way cool for they, or generally recent traitors as a whole, to see more modern options vs. the legions, more influenced by HH tech, but I don't think that's going to happen,

Theres gonna be a "legion trait" that isn't of anny legion specific for Renegade Chapters.

Warhams-77 wrote:

- 8 Legion Traits (7 for the original Legions + 1 for Renegades)

**daemonish**

So let me fully understand this, the adeptus astrates get 10 brand new shiny models for their release in response to this new massive threat and the opening of several large warp rifts chaos get nothing new and not even the plastic havocs kit that has been needed for around 10ish years. Not a chaos player just utterly confused by the reversion of GW after months and months of great releases this just feels severely lack lustre.

**Azreal13**

Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

**Platuan4th**

daemonish wrote:
So let me fully understand this, the adeptus astrates get 10 brand new shiny models for their release in response to this new massive threat and the opening of several large warp rifts chaos get nothing new and not even the plastic havocs kit that has been needed for around 10ish years. Not a chaos player just utterly confused by the reversion of GW after months and months of great releases this just feels severely lack lustre.

We know Death Guard are getting a bunch of kits with their book in the same month, so there's your new Chaos releases.

**daemonish**

Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

**BrianDavion**

the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

**Azreal13**

daemonish wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

The Indexes only go so far, and once the first Codex is out, the clock starts ticking on how long everyone else will sit sweetly on their hands waiting for their turn.

You also have to consider, whether you liked them or not, that CSM actually got several kits last time they were updated, as well as half a starter's worth of new stuff. It wasn't what many existing players wanted, but it did represent a number of kits. Then we've recently got 1K Sons and, as has been mentioned, are about to get Death Guard.

There's some criminal oversights, like Bezerkers, yes, but Heretic Astartes, as they are in new money, as a range have been getting stuff steadily almost as often as the poster boys.

**Messiah**

BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

**BrianDavion**

Messiah wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

heh fair eneugh, still, in the long run I think this'll be good for chaos,

**Nvs**

To be fair, we did see a larger than expected Thousand Sons release on top of the as yet unknown size of the Death Guard release as well. Chaos Space Marines did manage to get a reasonable amount of stuff.

The real question is if the full Thousand Sons and Death Guard lines will be available to the CSM book. For example, will Scarab Termis be in the CSM book or limited to Thousand Sons?

I would also like to think the Thousand Sons release isn't over if GW is serious about making them a stand alone faction. What they have available now is pretty poor power wise and certainly not enough to make them competitive. Unless of course it's out intention to call any CSM army that has a unit of Rubrics or a Sorcerer lord a Thousand Sons list even though actual Thousand Sons units make up less than 25% of the available points or model count. Simply giving Thousand Sons additional psychic powers on top of what we've seen is hardly going to cut it.

I'd imagine the same will be said for Death Guard as well.

**Galas**

I'm pretty sure that "generic" Chaos is gonna have a long wait before they receive anything. Just like AoS with Chaos Undivided, probably they will receive some form of ultra-bad (Ala Archaon=Abaddon) and maybe some kind of ultra-elite unit like the Varanguard, but the rest is gonna go to the Cult-Legions and specific-God chaos units.

**Voss**

BrianDavion wrote:
Messiah wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

heh fair eneugh, still, in the long run I think this'll be good for chaos,

Eh. In the long run it will be good for the chosen sub-factions, but bad for the 'main' faction. By the time K & S are invested with random stuff, it'll be time for 9th edition and the 'threat focus' to wander to something else.

**Eldarain**

My main gripe with the plastic atrophy is the rules cull that will come with our lack of options.

I'd prefer if there were just generic kits with litanies of upgrade sprues for all the chapters/legions/Renegades etc

**PLC**

ZergSmasher wrote:
I guess Renegades covers CSM groups that weren't part of the original Traitor Legions, so ones like the Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs, or the Crimson Slaughter? I sure hope they get some decent love then, not that I play either of those two but for the sake of those who do.

I hope they get nothing. Their 4th Ed Chaos Codex caused all the problems for those fighting the Long War. Chaos needs Traitor Legions....nothing else.

**daemonish**

Azreal13 wrote:
daemonish wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

The Indexes only go so far, and once the first Codex is out, the clock starts ticking on how long everyone else will sit sweetly on their hands waiting for their turn.

You also have to consider, whether you liked them or not, that CSM actually got several kits last time they were updated, as well as half a starter's worth of new stuff. It wasn't what many existing players wanted, but it did represent a number of kits. Then we've recently got 1K Sons and, as has been mentioned, are about to get Death Guard.

There's some criminal oversights, like Bezerkers, yes, but Heretic Astartes, as they are in new money, as a range have been getting stuff steadily almost as often as the poster boys.

But those kits were released last time not this time, again yes to an extent totally agree once the first codex hits there is an invisible ticking clock where everyone wants their armies codex now. Personally I would rather wait another 3 months for a codex and associated release than get my army's codex right now and nothing else. I am sure the new book has the potential to fix issues that currently exist with the army but how long until they release the next book? less than a year, 3 years? Just doesn't make sense to me. As far as sub factions go, yeah that's great if you want to play sub factions, but if you are inspired by the recent books and think "oh, you now what I really like this Abbadon guy maybe I'll start a black legion army, they should have some awesome brand new stuff at release" then the release comes and you get zero new models compared to the 10 brand new marine releases you will probably just stick with what you have. Models are what sell new armies 90% of the time not new books, unless you are a competitive player looking for the next Game changing unit/stratagem. It's short sighted poor planning on GW's behalf.

**Warhams-77**

The miniature designers including Jes Goodwin have said in recent interviews that they consider several of 40k miniature lines/ranges/factions to be in a state there is not much they can do with them creatively - they are done, perfected. Aspect Warriors for example won't get new miniatures. They have no interest in redoing these. So it won't happen that current ranges get updated. I also got from these interviews that they now (to be precise in the past 3 and in the next 3 years of development) have both the creative energy and the time to make new models for factions already in the fluff of 40k but lacking miniatures and also entirely new factions. I think it means Death Guard but also the other major Chaos Legions (World Eaters and Emperors Children) will get new miniatures. Plus a new Xenos race or two. I consider the skull on the cover of the Xenos books to be a teaser. Also the two logos hidden on top of the circle of faction symbols. While this is not a thread about possible future xenos releases, these minimal updates are in my opinion pointing at major releases of other new ranges. They support the formers' playability but expand the game creatively with new stuff. There should be a larger Nurgle Daemons release ahead, with new models.

**DarkStarSabre**

To be honest, I'd call the CSM range far from perfected. It's a mess of 3-4 different design philosophies with the undivided units alone.

That's not perfected. That's a mess that no one knows how to steer in the right direction.

Aspect warriors might get new miniatures in time - but not as a priority release. The issue with them is Finecast rather than their actual aesthetic.

**unmercifulconker**

For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

**Red Corsair**

warboss wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
How do you tell the differences between the various plasma guns in the Hellblaster squad?

Some have cables, and some don't... but that covers 2 types.

There also is a third plasma reservoir at the barrel tip on one of them.

Does this prevent unexpected failures resulting in life altering consequences?

**Lorek**

I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

**Red Corsair**

Lorek wrote:I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

unmercifulconker wrote:For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

Honestly this doesn't make sense and I doubt will happen. For one thing, the majority of CSM are from the heresy. Then there is already the issue the primairs marines already have, they made like 2500 total yet every chapter got some... So what they all got a guy or two? Completely stupid oversight on there part but now you want to have some of that tiny stock go traitor? It just makes the problem worse and compounds it by puting it on both sides.

I honestly hope the primaris guys branch of into their own thing, I know some like them, but just as many players hate them. To me they are done mastergully but the increased size just looks like a model kit in the wrong scale. It's like you brought a 1:35 scale tank to a game against everyone elses 1:45. But, I don't mind so long as GW doesn't suddenly blow up everyone elses stuff just because of the new guys. We will have to wait an see how the sales steer the ship though.

The CSM kit really isn't that bad btw, I have grey hunter kits, tac kits and CSM kits on my desk in front of me and people definitely like to band wagon on the standard CSM kit. If people took the time to really inspect the kit it's not bad at all. I understand the leg thing, but I don't expect GW to recut a kit for 1-2mm, if it bothers you that much, do like I suggested earlier and buy Calth legs off ebay, they are cheap as chips and are actual armor marks CSM would wear.

**Mymearan**

Warhams-77 wrote:
The miniature designers including Jes Goodwin have said in recent interviews that they consider several of 40k miniature lines/ranges/factions to be in a state there is not much they can do with them creatively - they are done, perfected. Aspect Warriors for example won't get new miniatures. They have no interest in redoing these. So it won't happen that current ranges get updated. I also got from these interviews that they now (to be precise in the past 3 and in the next 3 years of development) have both the creative energy and the time to make new models for factions already in the fluff of 40k but lacking miniatures and also entirely new factions. I think it means Death Guard but also the other major Chaos Legions (World Eaters and Emperors Children) will get new miniatures. Plus a new Xenos race or two. I consider the skull on the cover of the Xenos books to be a teaser. Also the two logos hidden on top of the circle of faction symbols. While this is not a thread about possible future xenos releases, these minimal updates are in my opinion pointing at major releases of other new ranges. They support the formers' playability but expand the game creatively with new stuff. There should be a larger Nurgle Daemons release ahead, with new models.

Can you provide a link to this interview? Doesn't sound like something their designers would say at all.

**BrianDavion**

Red Corsair wrote:
Lorek wrote:I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

unmercifulconker wrote:For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

Honestly this doesn't make sense and I doubt will happen. For one thing, the majority of CSM are from the heresy. Then there is already the issue the primairs marines already have, they made like 2500 total yet every chapter got some... So what they all got a guy or two? Completely stupid oversight on there part but now you want to have some of that tiny stock go traitor? It just makes the problem worse and compounds it by puting it on both sides.

I honestly hope the primaris guys branch of into their own thing, I know some like them, but just as many players hate them. To me they are done mastergully but the increased size just looks like a model kit in the wrong scale. It's like you brought a 1:35 scale tank to a game against everyone elses 1:45. But, I don't mind so long as GW doesn't suddenly blow up everyone elses stuff just because of the new guys. We will have to wait an see how the sales steer the ship though.

The CSM kit really isn't that bad btw, I have grey hunter kits, tac kits and CSM kits on my desk in front of me and people definitely like to band wagon on the standard CSM kit. If people took the time to really inspect the kit it's not bad at all. I understand the leg thing, but I don't expect GW to recut a kit for 1-2mm, if it bothers you that much, do like I suggested earlier and buy Calth legs off ebay, they are cheap as chips and are actual armor marks CSM would wear.

there where considerably more then 2500 Primaris Marines RC, 20,000 where present at the Triumph of Raukos alone.

regarding chaos kits, I agree chaos could use some work, however 90% of what chaos needs per everyone here, are upgrades of old kits. we don't nesscarily need to wait for a codex or not for GW to release a new CSM kit. what I'd really like to see though are new Havocs, there is a despirate need for a plastic havok kit. right now CSM players BAAAASICLY have to buy devestators and "chaosyify them"

**Skullhammer**

Confirmed release by the community site

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/30/two-new-codexes-coming-next-week/

**unmercifulconker**

I didn't say the kit was bad,I just want upscaled chaos marines

.

And

that heresy of Primaris turning traitor, now that would be silly.

**Warhams-77**

Posted 30/07/2017

Two new codexes, coming next week

One codex is pretty big news – but sometimes that’s just not enough, so how about two in one week? This coming Saturday, you’ll be able to pre-order the new codexes for the Chaos Space Marines and the Grey Knights.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines brings some of the oldest enemies of the Imperium fully into the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 with loads of new content. The Heretic Astartes are an ancient and terrifyingly powerful force, and more so in the age of the Dark Imperium as they are empowered not only by centuries of hate and an arsenal of baleful relics but now also by the dark energies of the warp bleeding into the wider galaxy from the Cicatrix Maledictum.

The new codex represents the Chaos Space Marines in their ascendancy, allowing you to collect a force that reflects both your favourite units and Legions while remaining true to the background. Like Chapter Tactics, the Chaos Legions are getting new rules of their own to represent how they fight, as well as unique Stratagems, Warlord Traits and artefacts. You’ll be able to build powerful themed armies, from rebellious packs of Renegades to furious forces of World Eaters, and from terrifying battalions of Night Lords to the depraved duelists of the Emperor’s Children. There are 9 psychic powers too, as well as updated points costs, datasheets and much much more – we’ll be taking a closer look at each Legion every day next week, starting tomorrow.

[...]

The new codexes and units will be available to pre-order on August the 5th – in the meantime, we’ll be previewing all of them right here on the Warhammer Community website. You can get rules for the Hellblasters and the Intercessors in the new Space Marines codex, or start collecting Grey Knights or Chaos Space Marines today.

**TheWaspinator**

Yeah, in some ways Calth and Prospero could be considered the new generic chaos marine kits.

**BrianDavion**

TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, in some ways Calth and Prospero could be considered the new generic chaos marine kits.

yeah the Mark 3 armor is pretty much MADE to be Iron Warrior.

**Azreal13**

One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

**DCannon4Life**

Azreal13 wrote:
One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

I'll bet you 1,000,000 Internets that CSM will be just fine.