Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

People always forget to look offensively and defensively at the same time. People thought the Ultramarines ability was useless vs range armies, but I pointed out it can be used offensively as well in that thread while it kept going.

Your right I was sleeping on the defensive potential. So we're back to shooting and then counter charging like from 3.5 - 7th. Good stuff.

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

The problem with a rule like that is it creates an army that is the exact opposite of what was intended. If WE ignore moral checks from shooting, that would encourage a gun line that avoids CC.

All these LD modifier abilities seem to be drastically contradictory to GW's commitment to "make chapter/legion tactics useful to all units"

Helbrutes and all characters don't give two gaks about leadership modifiers, nor does anything smaller than 5 models (and any 5 model units dont really care either). Oblits/maulers, sane sized bike units, sane sized terminator units, sane sized raptor/talon units...
Really, 3 of these 7 tactics -might- have some tiny effect on like... big blobs of cultists (but only if theyre supported by an apostle), or big squads of CSM (but why would you take those over msu anyways?)

If these are true, I'll be profoundly disappointed.

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Unheard of? World Eaters die by the fething hundreds of millions of thousands every campaign, it's like the second best thing they do behind finding new places to put their chain axes. I feel like the tactic in full is more like: "Auto-pass morale if you fought in the fight phase this turn". Because let's face it, this if it was "auto-pass morale while locked in combat" it would conflict with Berzerkers completely mutilating the thing they charged after fighting a a billion times in a row.

Edit: hey, Warp Talons might be pretty good for World Eaters now!

 buddha wrote:
I actually think 2 wounds finally puts them in "useable" territory which indeed quite improved from unusable.

This is true, but the other remaining problem with the unit is the inherent randomness with their damage output. They are primarily a melee unit, first having to go through random charge distance and having succeeded that they need to roll atleast 2 or 3 to be good. I don't get what is it with the love of adding excessive amount of random effects to units.

About Legion Traits:
As a NL player, I like their legion trait. It is certainly a step up from 7th edition where the Ld modifier rule 'Terror Tactics' was flat -2 modifier which couldnt be stacked with itself and the morale itself was non-factor for many armies. This new legion trait synergises nicely with Raptors, assuming they keep the rule 'Fearsome visage' as it is in the index currently, although this is much better as this activates on 6" distance instead of 1". The rules, if the rumour is true, are kind of opposite, with the legion trait giving -1 stackable to Ld while Raptor rule adds 1 to the result of the test.
All this seems awesome, but then there are the armies that can flat out ignore morale (AM with commissars) and the other examples given by Colpicklejar. Saddest thing is that fluffwise NL should be most effective against AM. Tyranids and Orks not being affected by this is sad yes, but it is fluffy atleast.

Otherwise the NL trait still places them at weird place. You wanna be within 6" with several units to stack the effect. Raptors however are not the best melee unit around for CSM, and dont combo with this rule too well because of that. The best effect can be achieved by MSU style lists, which are natural choice for units anyway to avoid having to lose models at morale phase. Maybe by driving in with Stormeagle filled with CSM tacticals and lord etc.

The black legion one sounds good, I wonder if it will just be like Eldar's Battle Focus or something better.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Unheard of? World Eaters die by the fething hundreds of millions of thousands every campaign, it's like the second best thing they do behind finding new places to put their chain axes. I feel like the tactic in full is more like: "Auto-pass morale if you fought in the fight phase this turn". Because let's face it, this if it was "auto-pass morale while locked in combat" it would conflict with Berzerkers completely mutilating the thing they charged after fighting a a billion times in a row.

Edit: hey, Warp Talons might be pretty good for World Eaters now!

Warp Talons could end up with +1 wound too, since they are kind of like jump possessed

Don't forget that the WE one is just the general legion trait (If the one mentioned is true) there will (probably) be extra rules for Berzerkers (I'm pretty sure not all WE are Berzerkers anyway)

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

I hope we get a stratagem which prevents people from falling back, that would be hilarious.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

It's actually a terrible ability. Just like Howling banshees they don't do a damn thing. Striking first AFTER all chargers is virtually useless because you've already been hit. Units that don't want to be around for more than 1 round just fall back anyway. You need the demon ability that stops fallback.

1/10 ability (only a 1 because 0 is reserved for Obliterators)

overtyrant wrote:
(I'm pretty sure not all WE are Berzerkers anyway)

If you want to go by the lore of the past few decades...

All WE are Berserkers but not all Berserkers are WE.
All EC are Noise Marines but not all Noise Marines are EC.
All DG are Plague Marines but not all Plague Marines are DG.
All non-Psyker Thousand Sons are Rubrics. All Rubrics are technically Thousand Sons (but you have odd cases of mercenary Sorcerers offering the ritual out to other Legions).

It's why I consider the restrictions on the DG list but not the WE or EC list to be bunk.

And when I say all I include Cult Terminators in there. Really. I hope we see some sort of Cult equivalents.

The EC trait is nice enough but it'd be mighty nice to see if the Marks do anything themselves.

Also, my Death Guard are on the verge of becoming Nurgle Renegades using another Legion's trait depending on how hard we get shafted on the Terminator front. If I see fixed load out Terminators then I'm just straight up going Nurgle Renegade and using another Legion's trait.

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

 Kirasu wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

It's actually a terrible ability. Just like Howling banshees they don't do a damn thing. Striking first AFTER all chargers is virtually useless because you've already been hit. Units that don't want to be around for more than 1 round just fall back anyway. You need the demon ability that stops fallback.

They don't fight after all chargers- it literally says they alternate with enemy chargers (or other units that also strike first).
So instead of all chargers, if you get charged by 4 units its Opponent, you, opponent, you, opponent, you, opponent, you. If you have ongoing combats yours get added to the alternating units (with the chargers), then all of opponents ongoing fights at the end.
It's a pretty large benefit as you can blunt around half the charges, just be smart about order. The unit that got attacked by the opponent's first unit? Pick that last.


tl;dr: They fight first with a single (1) charging unit. Then it alternates. Then the opponent's units that didn't charge fight.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I wonder of Line CSM will get Bolter/Pistol/CCW back...

Ghorgul wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I actually think 2 wounds finally puts them in "useable" territory which indeed quite improved from unusable.

This is true, but the other remaining problem with the unit is the inherent randomness with their damage output. They are primarily a melee unit, first having to go through random charge distance and having succeeded that they need to roll atleast 2 or 3 to be good. I don't get what is it with the love of adding excessive amount of random effects to units.

About Legion Traits:
As a NL player, I like their legion trait. It is certainly a step up from 7th edition where the Ld modifier rule 'Terror Tactics' was flat -2 modifier which couldnt be stacked with itself and the morale itself was non-factor for many armies. This new legion trait synergises nicely with Raptors, assuming they keep the rule 'Fearsome visage' as it is in the index currently, although this is much better as this activates on 6" distance instead of 1". The rules, if the rumour is true, are kind of opposite, with the legion trait giving -1 stackable to Ld while Raptor rule adds 1 to the result of the test.
All this seems awesome, but then there are the armies that can flat out ignore morale (AM with commissars) and the other examples given by Colpicklejar. Saddest thing is that fluffwise NL should be most effective against AM. Tyranids and Orks not being affected by this is sad yes, but it is fluffy atleast.

Otherwise the NL trait still places them at weird place. You wanna be within 6" with several units to stack the effect. Raptors however are not the best melee unit around for CSM, and dont combo with this rule too well because of that. The best effect can be achieved by MSU style lists, which are natural choice for units anyway to avoid having to lose models at morale phase. Maybe by driving in with Stormeagle filled with CSM tacticals and lord etc.

Where does this info come from? Where can I find it?

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wonder of Line CSM will get Bolter/Pistol/CCW back...

It'd be nice because we were one of the few armies that could actually do it and a lot of us actually modelled that appropriately. (use the pouch/hide/holster bits for pistols, clip pistols off arms, replace with bolters, fully WYSIWYG marines!)

I just want some sweet cover bonus Strategems for my Night Lords.

A turn one night fighting advantage would be great with my Havocs perched in a high ruin.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I think that same clam pack aspiring champion has a combi melta on his back pack so those may be safe but yea I expect many a co,bi weapon to vanish including all but the combiflamer for tanks. Aside from that I think you nailed it. Hopefully we are wrong and they spare us the load out culling.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I think that same clam pack aspiring champion has a combi melta on his back pack so those may be safe but yea I expect many a co,bi weapon to vanish including all but the combiflamer for tanks. Aside from that I think you nailed it. Hopefully we are wrong and they spare us the load out culling.

The Command Vehicle upgrade sprue has a vehicle Combi-Melta, so that option stays, too.

You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

I really wanted a basic Chaos Marine kit. But there are no indication that we are getting anything new ... unless you play Death Guard.

Jack Spratt wrote:
Where does this info come from? Where can I find it?

It's from a post referring to a website a few pages back:
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2285

Warhams-77 wrote:
War of Sigmar

Hello everyone
by reading the white dwarf with a mag glass a friend saw this :

-Night lord trait should be : -1 ld by nl unit around you (6" and stack)
-Iron warriors : +1 in cover and -1 vs covers
-World Bearers : Reroll moral.
-Emperors Childrend : Always pile in first (WTF?)
-Black legion : +1 ld and a bonus for advancing and shooting (too small)
-World eaters : Pass all morale while in melee
-Alpha legion : Deep strike at 12" from ennemies.

Night lord stratagem is : -1 to hit.
ps : Saw someone on FB sharing nearly the same sighting.
/cheers.
bob.

Of course the information can be doubted, the linked blog post for example failed to read EC legion trait correctly, although Always Fight first instead of the listed Always pile in first is kind of understandable misreading.

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

 Rydria wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

If you're attempting to argue for a new standard CSM boxset then you're doing a great job.

Yeah... all that assumes that the HH plastics are CSM units, however, they're not listed as such. While they're obvious conversion fodder, GW's pretty clearly trying to tone down kitbashing for weapon combos.

 Rydria wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

Doomsayers?
Since when is drawing a rational logical conclusion from a pattern of behavior that has been consistent doomsaying?

Look, I hope chaos bucks the trend, but all we are saying is that you should prepare for the worst. Feel free to ignore me at least, but I'll continue to hold off building several kits on my desk until the book hits since I hate breaking models after I have glued them.