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 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

I sure hope so. How else would you build army classics like the Sanctified (basically all-Berzerkers Word Bearers) or Prophests of the Blighted Path (Plague Marine-focussed Word Bearers)?

Obliterators look interesting now (and I have some spare terminators sitting around so I might give that a go). Assault 4 makes them pretty good for deepstriking (basically on the worst roll each of the models has the equivalent of a 24" reaper autocannon).

So, using my jump pack warlord and sorcerer I just stick with the Index entry, correct?

 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

Wait where was this? I didn't see it in the review/leak. That's actually fairly beneficial, being able to take rubrics or PM in the troop slot would be a big advantage atm, for holding objectives.

Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

SilverAlien wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

Wait where was this? I didn't see it in the review/leak. That's actually fairly beneficial, being able to take rubrics or PM in the troop slot would be a big advantage atm, for holding objectives.

If you check the video the cult troops have the option to have a legion keyword attached to them. Considering the point reduction in demon troops as well I am going to have some fun with my word bearer army, honestly I now have a reason to buy the new plague marine kit that is coming out soon I think they will look good in red and with Colchisian runes on their armor plus the new plague marines rock a lot of censers.

 dan2026 wrote:
Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

Not odd at all, thankfully. There was a huge time span where Chaos was simply Chaos. They only split off daemons to make people buy another book.

 shinros wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

Wait where was this? I didn't see it in the review/leak. That's actually fairly beneficial, being able to take rubrics or PM in the troop slot would be a big advantage atm, for holding objectives.

If you check the video the cult troops have the option to have a legion keyword attached to them.

Think the Alien wants to know how they become troops instead of elites.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 shinros wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

Wait where was this? I didn't see it in the review/leak. That's actually fairly beneficial, being able to take rubrics or PM in the troop slot would be a big advantage atm, for holding objectives.

If you check the video the cult troops have the option to have a legion keyword attached to them.

Think the Alien wants to know how they become troops instead of elites.

Oh wrong wording I meant we are allowed to take them before in traitor legions word bearers were not allowed to take cult troops. When I talk about god dedicated units I refer them to cult troops my bad.

Did my fething Plague Marines get 2 attacks back?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did my fething Plague Marines get 2 attacks back?

only if we ditch all our ranged attacks

 shinros wrote:
Well it seems word bearers can take cult troops now. Hmm

So back to the way they should be. Great!

 Elbows wrote:
Obliterators look interesting now (and I have some spare terminators sitting around so I might give that a go). Assault 4 makes them pretty good for deepstriking (basically on the worst roll each of the models has the equivalent of a 24" reaper autocannon).

So, using my jump pack warlord and sorcerer I just stick with the Index entry, correct?

Jump packs are in the codex. Biker characters you'd have to take from the index.

And no Obliterators are not interesting with more random vomit. Those dudes are methodical and selective in how they dispose of their enemies not spit at them and see what happens.
If you meant "more playable" in the sense of "worth their points" then yes they are better of now. Still too expensive, still only toughness 4 which is the biggest joke of them all. And no more power fists in CC. No one needs mutilators. They suck so much it can't be put into words anymore. A grossly overpriced -CC only- unit with movement 4 which needed another unit -oblis- to be nerfed so mutis have their own niche of irrelevance.

Honestly, just get rid of this unit. Wipe its [explicit] existence from this world and all of history and give me my powerful, flexible and rightfully expensive obliterators with fists back!

 Elbows wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

Not odd at all, thankfully. There was a huge time span where Chaos was simply Chaos. They only split off daemons to make people buy another book.

Too bad due to poor wording you can't include Demons if you want to use any Legion rules benefits. Must be another "oversight". Over all the CSM looks like a large improvement, just certain things like Demons and Chaos Boon are so inane.

For a long time I was certain that the reason why the Daemon Prince sword and axe were so expensive is because they were going to have relic substitute options that would be truly beastly. But from the clips we've seen it doesn't look like that there are any relic weapons for Daemon Princes, as they all replace either power swords, axes, and mauls.

I think that's a real shame, as a Daemon Prince with a beastly unique weapon has always been a staple of my pre-8th lists. I hope that the Prince's sword and axe cost are dramatically reduced, then.

The prince went from 10PP to 8, so that might be the case.

Charax wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did my fething Plague Marines get 2 attacks back?

only if we ditch all our ranged attacks

Blech whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 combatcotton wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Obliterators look interesting now (and I have some spare terminators sitting around so I might give that a go). Assault 4 makes them pretty good for deepstriking (basically on the worst roll each of the models has the equivalent of a 24" reaper autocannon).

So, using my jump pack warlord and sorcerer I just stick with the Index entry, correct?

Jump packs are in the codex. Biker characters you'd have to take from the index.

And no Obliterators are not interesting with more random vomit. Those dudes are methodical and selective in how they dispose of their enemies not spit at them and see what happens.
If you meant "more playable" in the sense of "worth their points" then yes they are better of now. Still too expensive, still only toughness 4 which is the biggest joke of them all. And no more power fists in CC. No one needs mutilators. They suck so much it can't be put into words anymore. A grossly overpriced -CC only- unit with movement 4 which needed another unit -oblis- to be nerfed so mutis have their own niche of irrelevance.

Honestly, just get rid of this unit. Wipe its [explicit] existence from this world and all of history and give me my powerful, flexible and rightfully expensive obliterators with fists back!

Methodical and selective? You only used like 3 or 4 of the weapon profiles. Quit pretending the old Obliterators were all that.

Again:
3 or 4 is more than .... guess .....


And I never demanded to bring the EXACT old rules back. Wouldn't work well in 8th anyway.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

Not odd at all, thankfully. There was a huge time span where Chaos was simply Chaos. They only split off daemons to make people buy another book.

Too bad due to poor wording you can't include Demons if you want to use any Legion rules benefits. Must be another "oversight". Over all the CSM looks like a large improvement, just certain things like Demons and Chaos Boon are so inane.

That's not entirely true. You cannot include Daemons in a Detachment if you want to use a legion trait. You can certainly have another detachment that includes the Daemons, and a different detachment for your legion.

For example, you could have a Black Legion Vanguard Battalion detachment consisting of CSMs, and a World Eaters Battalion Detachment consisting of Khorne Berzerkers, and a Daemons Battalion detachment consisting of Horrors. This army would offer the same number of command points as a Brigade detachment and everyone would enjoy their special rules.

I imagine when the Daemons Codex comes out, one might want to use the rules from that book to replace the ones in this one.

In non-matched play, you could just build yourself a Legion Detachment and summon the Daemons in once the game starts.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

Not odd at all, thankfully. There was a huge time span where Chaos was simply Chaos. They only split off daemons to make people buy another book.

Too bad due to poor wording you can't include Demons if you want to use any Legion rules benefits. Must be another "oversight". Over all the CSM looks like a large improvement, just certain things like Demons and Chaos Boon are so inane.

That's not entirely true. You cannot include Daemons in a Detachment if you want to use a legion trait. You can certainly have another detachment that includes the Daemons, and a different detachment for your legion.

For example, you could have a Black Legion Vanguard Battalion detachment consisting of CSMs, and a World Eaters Battalion Detachment consisting of Khorne Berzerkers, and a Daemons Battalion detachment consisting of Horrors. This army would offer the same number of command points as a Brigade detachment and everyone would enjoy their special rules.

I imagine when the Daemons Codex comes out, one might want to use the rules from that book to replace the ones in this one.

Why would you do that? Just use the actual demon list from the Index. The point is that you'd think since they put them in CSM you'd be able to USE them in a detachment WITH CSM.

Another incredibly dumb "oversight" is how you have to pay points to become a demon prince via chaos boon. So if you buy a chaos lord, and he turns into a demon prince you have to pay for BOTH models. Nevermind the fact that no one is going to reserve points just on the chance that you'll become a demon prince on a 12 on 2d6. So stupid and poorly worded.

You can summon them in a Legion army though, because summoned units aren't part of any detachment, so don't interfere with legion traits

 Kirasu wrote:


Another incredibly dumb "oversight" is how you have to pay points to become a demon prince via chaos boon. So if you buy a chaos lord, and he turns into a demon prince you have to pay for BOTH models. Nevermind the fact that no one is going to reserve points just on the chance that you'll become a demon prince on a 12 on 2d6. So stupid and poorly worded.

I don't think this is an option intended primarily for tournament play. Character becomes Daemon Prince sounds like a classic have-fun story game among friends, not a matched play thing.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Another incredibly dumb "oversight" is how you have to pay points to become a demon prince via chaos boon. So if you buy a chaos lord, and he turns into a demon prince you have to pay for BOTH models. Nevermind the fact that no one is going to reserve points just on the chance that you'll become a demon prince on a 12 on 2d6. So stupid and poorly worded.

I don't think this is an option intended primarily for tournament play. Character becomes Daemon Prince sounds like a classic have-fun story game among friends, not a matched play thing.

Oh okay, I must have missed that line in the Stratagem. "Open Play Only". Instead of correctly writing a rule to make it playable for everyone.

I think that somehow GW made a Chaos codex that is WORSE than the 6e one. I have no idea how. On top of that, none of our ancient model line is getting updated. This might actually be the worst release for chaos space marines ever. "Chaos are the super big bad guys promised they scary woooooh spoooooky marines with spiiiiiiiiiiikes". Good thing most chaos players are jaded to GW propoganda at this point. Here's to another edition at the bottom of the dumpster fire gents. *titanic violin quartet*

 Kirasu wrote:


Oh okay, I must have missed that line in the Stratagem. "Open Play Only". Instead of correctly writing a rule to make it playable for everyone.

It is playable by everyone, even if it is not super-competitive in tournament play.

What would be the point of a point-based matched play variant if it doesn't put careful limits on some of the more wacky options that are fun in scenarios, etc.. that could very easily derail competitive games or tightly organised events?

If every crazy thing would work as easily in matched play as it does in open play, you wouldn't need matched play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
On top of that, none of our ancient model line is getting updated.

Funny. I think I read somewhere those super-old Plague Marines were getting an upgrade this year.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Oh okay, I must have missed that line in the Stratagem. "Open Play Only". Instead of correctly writing a rule to make it playable for everyone.

It is playable by everyone, even if it is not super-competitive in tournament play.

What would be the point of a point-based matched play variant if it doesn't put careful limits on some of the more wacky options that are fun in scenarios, etc.. that could very easily derail competitive games or tightly organised events?

If every crazy thing would work as easily in matched play as it does in open play, you wouldn't need matched play.

You're ALREADY paying for the character that gets killed. I'm not sure you understand what competitive really means, with that statement. It is vastly more competitive to pay for a Lord AND a Demon prince to guarantee you have them both instead of relying on a 12 on a 2d6 that costs 1 CP? Thus using this stratagem IS trying to be fun, but if you decide to play Matched you're just punished because of bad writing.

 Kirasu wrote:


You're ALREADY paying for the character that gets killed.

Then don't use that Strategem.

If the game is competitive 2000 pts. vs. 2000 pts., and the armies are balanced at those points, a single "free" point would in theory throw of the balance and void the result of the game in a strictly sportsman/tournament sense.

Yeah, why require GW to write a rule that works for each play style. "Just don't use it". OR they could have said "Re-roll results of 2 and 12 if playing in Matched Play" and viola it's useful for everyone.

But yeah, "Just don't use it" is a way better defense.

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah, why require GW to write a rule that works for each play style. "Just don't use it". OR they could have said "Re-roll results of 2 and 12 if playing in Matched Play" and viola it's useful for everyone.

But yeah, "Just don't use it" is a way better defense.

There are lots of rules you don't use in any given game. If you play points, you're not using power level. If you're using power level, you're not using points. If you're playing Black Legion, you're not using Night Lords strategems. If you're using a finely tuned tournament-winning list, you'll not use the possibly-turn-into-a-Daemon-Prince strategem.

 Kirasu wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Odd there are the 4 Daemon troops units in the CSM book.

I wonder what this means for Daemons or what Daemons will be in the Death Guard book.

Not odd at all, thankfully. There was a huge time span where Chaos was simply Chaos. They only split off daemons to make people buy another book.

Too bad due to poor wording you can't include Demons if you want to use any Legion rules benefits. Must be another "oversight". Over all the CSM looks like a large improvement, just certain things like Demons and Chaos Boon are so inane.

That's not entirely true. You cannot include Daemons in a Detachment if you want to use a legion trait. You can certainly have another detachment that includes the Daemons, and a different detachment for your legion.

For example, you could have a Black Legion Vanguard Battalion detachment consisting of CSMs, and a World Eaters Battalion Detachment consisting of Khorne Berzerkers, and a Daemons Battalion detachment consisting of Horrors. This army would offer the same number of command points as a Brigade detachment and everyone would enjoy their special rules.

I imagine when the Daemons Codex comes out, one might want to use the rules from that book to replace the ones in this one.

Why would you do that? Just use the actual demon list from the Index. The point is that you'd think since they put them in CSM you'd be able to USE them in a detachment WITH CSM.

Another incredibly dumb "oversight" is how you have to pay points to become a demon prince via chaos boon. So if you buy a chaos lord, and he turns into a demon prince you have to pay for BOTH models. Nevermind the fact that no one is going to reserve points just on the chance that you'll become a demon prince on a 12 on 2d6. So stupid and poorly worded.

There is nothing preventing someone from using these Daemon profiles in a detachment with CSM. Word Bearers have a bonus to summoning that makes that easier. I think these profiles are in this book as a matter of completeness - no one wants to lug around the Index and the Codex.

With regards to the Daemon Prince, I know in matched play one must pay for every model that will be added to the army, or that will replace a unit that has been destroyed. The Chaos Boon chart specifically says that the replacement models do not cost reinforcement points. So how would one 'pay' for both models?