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Celestine, Guilliman and Magnus.

I don't understand how Magnus hasn't has more votes.

 DoomMouse wrote:

It's a bit depressing that GW had the option to adjust 2/3 of these in the last codex and chose not to..

What?

Index books have been out for what ... 4 weeks?

A week or two minimum for the Nottingham team writing the Space Marines codex, sending files to China, a few weeks of printing, a month or two to ship the printed codex to logistic centers around the world, another month safety buffer in case things go wrong.

The 8th Ed. Space Marines Codex was probably finished, at least as content and point values from the Nottingham team goes, before the Guilliman miniature was released (with 7th Ed. rules) in February earlier this year.

 Galas wrote:
Celestine, Guilliman and Magnus.

I don't understand how Magnus hasn't has more votes.

Magnus is pricey and can be shot to death easily. Guilliman can hide behind his troops and actually gains you points just by including him in the army due to his force multiplier effect.

He may or may not be undercosted but since he's around what a Lord of Skulls costs... I'm going with no. The LoS will murder an entire field of things solo while Magnus is dead by turn 2 or 3.

Poxwalkers, Necrosius and Typhus are a pretty strong combo.

This poll made me cringe. Not only some of the options, but also that some people actually voted for them...

Worst of all is that more people voted Conscripts than Brimstone Horrors...
Talk about Conscripts having bad rep on dakkadakka.

Well to be fair they would be my 4th. They are extremely potent.

Can I just point out and laugh that 3% think a 6+ save,T4 model with 1 wound and 2 base attacks is "Top three most powerful units"

SemperMortis wrote:
Can I just point out and laugh that 3% think a 6+ save,T4 model with 1 wound and 2 base attacks is "Top three most powerful units"

Yeah. It's almost as if people didn't like the fact the 'whipping boyz' of the last edition actually became viable and they can't use their precious 'detatchments' to auto-win against them...

Some top quality salt shown in this thread by people who REALLY should know better.

Wonderwolf wrote:

The 8th Ed. Space Marines Codex was probably finished, at least as content and point values from the Nottingham team goes, before the Guilliman miniature was released (with 7th Ed. rules) in February earlier this year.

I don't think so. There are several point cost changes between the codex and the index. Why release the index with a unit costing X points and the codex with the same unit costing Y points, if the codex was ready alongside the index (or even earlier)?

The codex has no indication it was printed in China, also.

Well the results are interesting. Not entirely what I was expecting either! In order we have

1) Guilliman
2) conscripts
3) Stormraven
4) Brimstone horrors
5) tempestus scions
6) Celestine
7) Razorbacks
8) Magnus
9) Tau commander
10) ork boys
11) Imperial knights
12) genestealer
13) manticores / basilisks
14) kastellan robots
15) Belisarius cawl
16) taurox prime
17) daemon prince
18) baneblade variants
19) Harlequins
20) khorne berserkers

Obviously the last few don't have many votes so are subject to change!

 Vector Strike wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

The 8th Ed. Space Marines Codex was probably finished, at least as content and point values from the Nottingham team goes, before the Guilliman miniature was released (with 7th Ed. rules) in February earlier this year.

I don't think so. There are several point cost changes between the codex and the index. Why release the index with a unit costing X points and the codex with the same unit costing Y points, if the codex was ready alongside the index (or even earlier)?

The codex has no indication it was printed in China, also.

Even if the Codex was printed in the UK, it would not work out.

Index books were in people's hand June 17th.

Codex was visible, fully printed and all, in YouTube videos and all as early as July 20th or so. A day or two before pre-orders.

So how did GW do their process? How long did they "watch the Index" among players to gather info on adjusting points? The first week only (until June 24th)? Two weeks (until July 1st)? Meetings to get a consensus to change points. Edit the files for printing. Send them to a UK printer. Print thousands of books. Ship them across the world to be in stores everywhere from Tokyo to Chicago to Cape Town (which again takes weeks, even if its not originally from China). Or did they airlift to all their stores worldwide, basically blowing all profits this year to have a few point adjustments based on people playing with the Index?

What if the printer would've been down for a week? Take that risk and cut it this close?

All that crazy process despite knowing that, for the first time in 40K history, there will be a General's Handbook style book to actually do adjust points based on the evolving meta?


If GW hardcover books are still printed in China, and the Index as a softcover is, as printed on the back, printed in the UK, it's likely the Index books were printed AFTER the Codex and some point adjustments were made, perhaps to account for lack of Chapter Tactics and a few other things.

Wonderwolf wrote:

Even if the Codex was printed in the UK, it would not work out.

Index books were in people's hand June 17th.

Codex was visible, fully printed and all, in YouTube videos and all as early as July 20th or so. A day or two before pre-orders.

So how did GW do their process? How long did they "watch the Index" among players to gather info on adjusting points? The first week only (until June 24th)? Two weeks (until July 1st)? Meetings to get a consensus to change points. Edit the files for printing. Send them to a UK printer. Print thousands of books. Ship them across the world to be in stores everywhere from Tokyo to Chicago to Cape Town (which again takes weeks, even if its not originally from China). Or did they airlift to all their stores worldwide, basically blowing all profits this year to have a few point adjustments based on people playing with the Index?

What if the printer would've been down for a week? Take that risk and cut it this close?

All that crazy process despite knowing that, for the first time in 40K history, there will be a General's Handbook style book to actually do adjust points based on the evolving meta?


If GW hardcover books are still printed in China, and the Index as a softcover is, as printed on the back, printed in the UK, it's likely the Index books were printed AFTER the Codex and some point adjustments were made, perhaps to account for lack of Chapter Tactics and a few other things.

But this is so weird. It would mean that people asking for changes wouldn't matter at all...

 Vector Strike wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

Even if the Codex was printed in the UK, it would not work out.

Index books were in people's hand June 17th.

Codex was visible, fully printed and all, in YouTube videos and all as early as July 20th or so. A day or two before pre-orders.

So how did GW do their process? How long did they "watch the Index" among players to gather info on adjusting points? The first week only (until June 24th)? Two weeks (until July 1st)? Meetings to get a consensus to change points. Edit the files for printing. Send them to a UK printer. Print thousands of books. Ship them across the world to be in stores everywhere from Tokyo to Chicago to Cape Town (which again takes weeks, even if its not originally from China). Or did they airlift to all their stores worldwide, basically blowing all profits this year to have a few point adjustments based on people playing with the Index?

What if the printer would've been down for a week? Take that risk and cut it this close?

All that crazy process despite knowing that, for the first time in 40K history, there will be a General's Handbook style book to actually do adjust points based on the evolving meta?


If GW hardcover books are still printed in China, and the Index as a softcover is, as printed on the back, printed in the UK, it's likely the Index books were printed AFTER the Codex and some point adjustments were made, perhaps to account for lack of Chapter Tactics and a few other things.

But this is so weird. It would mean that people asking for changes wouldn't matter at all...

Best part is, they can still do changes...
AND screw the people who buy physical copies!

Ork boyz are more OP then Knight Titans

 Talamare wrote:

Best part is, they can still do changes...
AND screw the people who buy physical copies!

Kind of like what they did with the Index already. Age of Sigmar, they gave everyone free rules to use. 40k, we buy books that are obsolete in two weeks.

Granted genestealers are on the list but the cult stealers with the patriarch are insane. Combined they are 350 points. Pat let's the stealers auto pass morale and gain 1 WS. If the Pat takes might from beyond the stealers can get +1 strength and attack. How does 100 attacks at strength 5, hitting on 2s, from the stealers alone? Not to mention (most likely) not having to footslog across the board.

SemperMortis wrote:
Ork boyz are more OP then Knight Titans

Agreed

usmcmidn wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Ork boyz are more OP then Knight Titans

Agreed

Have yet to see that one in effect.

OP is used very loosely around here i dont think there is anything nearly as OP as in 7th Girlyman for me is the closest as he can hide in squads and is a huge force multiplier. I think in 8th there is a much smaller amount of insta loss because of lists than there was in 7th which is awesome, some units are more powerful than others but with millions of different combinations, it would be impossible to have diversity and balance. I think so far we have a better game with more options and fewer auto includes.

A lot of votes is simply based on what people play against not based the rules obviously.

Top three is Brimstone Horrors, Conscript-Commissar, Guilleman
in that order.

Stormraven is not even in my top 10 i think, especially with the all flier lists shut down.

Ravagers and Reapers are pretty sick.

Ubl1k wrote:OP is used very loosely around here i dont think there is anything nearly as OP as in 7th Girlyman for me is the closest as he can hide in squads and is a huge force multiplier. I think in 8th there is a much smaller amount of insta loss because of lists than there was in 7th which is awesome, some units are more powerful than others but with millions of different combinations, it would be impossible to have diversity and balance. I think so far we have a better game with more options and fewer auto includes.

I agree - I usually try and say 'powerful for the points cost' rather than 'OP' whenever I'm talking about strong units as I feel that's that what matters, and some people have weird views when it comes to what 'OP' does or doesn't mean.

CovenantGuardian wrote:A lot of votes is simply based on what people play against not based the rules obviously.

Top three is Brimstone Horrors, Conscript-Commissar, Guilleman
in that order.

Stormraven is not even in my top 10 i think, especially with the all flier lists shut down.

I also agree with that. It's going to be skewed towards what people see on the table most. I voted conscripts, storms + guilliman when I made the poll, but brims are also ridiculous. In hindsight I guess I'd rather face 1500pts of stormravens than 1500pts of brims so maybe I voted wrong myself haha.

One army I think is under represented here is sisters of battle. I keep hearing they're good, but have personally never seen them played as a standalone force so can't really comment on their effectiveness.

On a one on one base the conscript by himself is not undercosted, a guardsman costs 25% more but brings 50% more damage output.
What makes conscripts so strong is that
- now every weapon can hurt anything
- the rate of fire for better/elite units can´t keep up with theirs. Increasing the assault cannons from 4 to 6 shots and doubling the shots from twin-linked weapons can´t compensate it as you have to pay more for the last ones.
- you can take up to 50 in one unit all benefitting from single commissar and a single order.

Cap the max size of conscripts at 20 or a little above, but definatly not more than 30. And they won´t need any further change.

Firefox1 wrote:
On a one on one base the conscript by himself is not undercosted, a guardsman costs 25% more but brings 50% more damage output.
What makes conscripts so strong is that
- now every weapon can hurt anything
- the rate of fire for better/elite units can´t keep up with theirs. Increasing the assault cannons from 4 to 6 shots and doubling the shots from twin-linked weapons can´t compensate it as you have to pay more for the last ones.
- you can take up to 50 in one unit all benefitting from single commissar and a single order.

Cap the max size of conscripts at 20 or a little above, but definatly not more than 30. And they won´t need any further change.

Everyone hates on guard with conscript squads but Orks and Nids can do the same things, right?

usmcmidn wrote:
Everyone hates on guard with conscript squads but Orks and Nids can do the same things, right?

Conscripts are 3pts per model though (I think the cheapest nid and ork ones are about 5 or 6).

The thing is though, i think it's less about the conscripts themselves and more about them blocking assaults and deep-strikes to the powerful IG artillery.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/05/legion-focus-word-bearers-aug-5gw-homepage-post-2/

According to this, #4 on the list, brimstone horrors are getting a points increase. I wonder whether it'll be three or four. Is suspect three, and I think they'll definitely still be worth taking for that!

 DoomMouse wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/05/legion-focus-word-bearers-aug-5gw-homepage-post-2/

According to this, #4 on the list, brimstone horrors are getting a points increase. I wonder whether it'll be three or four. Is suspect three, and I think they'll definitely still be worth taking for that!

It is three. Pinks are 8, Blues are 5, Brimstones are 3. Horrors also no longer do d3 Smites so they aren't quite the cheap stupid amounts of mortal wounds spam army as before.

I don't know if we can safely knock them off the list entirely but at the very least they're just conscripts with no shooting and a 4++ invuln.

 Arkaine wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/05/legion-focus-word-bearers-aug-5gw-homepage-post-2/

According to this, #4 on the list, brimstone horrors are getting a points increase. I wonder whether it'll be three or four. Is suspect three, and I think they'll definitely still be worth taking for that!

It is three. Pinks are 8, Blues are 5, Brimstones are 3. Horrors also no longer do d3 Smites so they aren't quite the cheap stupid amounts of mortal wounds spam army as before.

I don't know if we can safely knock them off the list entirely but at the very least they're just conscripts with no shooting and a 4++ invuln.

What was their smite change?

It never occurred to me for the Stormraven to be OP. Can someone enlighten me further as to how this happened?

 Yuber wrote:
It never occurred to me for the Stormraven to be OP. Can someone enlighten me further as to how this happened?

It's highly mobile, gives a -1 to hit it because it's a flyer, has a lot of firepower, and is hard to take down. Of course it's also about as expensive as a land raider crusader, while not being quite as durable, but it more than makes up for that in superior firepower (it has the hurricane bolters and assault cannons, but also adds heavy bolters and stormstrikes, exchanging the twin HBs and ACs for twin LCs and a typhoon launcher makes it a decent anti-tank unit as well for less points than a normal quad-las land raider; compare 4 S8 attacks and 2 S9 vs the raider's 4 S9 attacks).

I'd argue though that right now, the stormraven is approaching balance, because flyer units can't hold objectives and don't count for the purpose of determining if you have any models on the table. So you're paying ~270 points for a model that has a lot of mobility and firepower, but that's 270 points of stuff the opponent doesn't have to kill to table you. Whereas if you take a land raider, they DO have to remove that to table you.