Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/05/legion-focus-word-bearers-aug-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Hopefully the Daemon Summoning works with FW units. :3

Dat warlord trait.

Honestly I think it's okay in the same manner as Iron Hands. You don't really need to build for the rule, and that's not really a bad thing. Still disappointing but I like the way the SM and CSM Codices have shaped up overall outside minor things I'd do differently.

Tide Of Traitors will be super fun.

I can't figure out why they think CSM favor large squads of elite troops. Where does that pile of nonsense even come from?

The highlight of CSM over the last decade or two has been suicide terminators, MSU spam, specifically broken vehicles, and DPs with poorly thought out spells or artifacts.

It amuses me they called 9 leadership massive.

Anyways, everything but the warlord trait is questionable and even that's mainly good for a budget HQ. Cultists are solid but word bearers aren't even the best legion for them (red corsairs/IW/BL for different forms of fearless, alpha legion or EC to give a good boost to longevity).

WB are the weakest legion overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
I can't figure out why they think CSM favor large squads of elite troops. Where does that pile of nonsense even come from?

Horus Hersey lore where space marines used to be organized in larger squads, 10-20 was fairly common. Only after the second founding did the smaller space marine squad sizes become the norm for loyalists.

That has zero to do with how CSM have ever played in 40k.

A recent fluff retcon has no bearing on the tabletop.

Tide of Traitors.
Down to a single cultist out of a unit of say 20. They can respawn back at full 20?
Is table edge = any table edge?
Could be nasty.

Voss wrote:
That has zero to do with how CSM have ever played in 40k.

A recent fluff retcon has no bearing on the tabletop.

I'm just telling you why "CSM have large units" is a thing. I'm also unsure how recent s retcon it actually is, given larger unit sizes for CSM have been a thing for a while.

That wasn't my question, it's why the article writers seem to think CSM are -best fielded- as large units of (supposedly) 'elite' troops.


Yes, you could take large units of CSM, but there was never a good reason to actually do that (and lots of reasons to MSU spam). The large units also predate anyone sitting down and deciding the HH unit structure.

Voss wrote:
That wasn't my question, it's why the article writers seem to think CSM are -best fielded- as large units of (supposedly) 'elite' troops.

The same reason they play up each legion's fluff when describing their strength? "WE are supposed to be good at melee so look at all these fluffy melee bonuses" in the same way they did "CSM should be fielded in large squads look at all these fluffy bonuses to make that more viable!"

SilverAlien wrote:

Voss wrote:
That wasn't my question, it's why the article writers seem to think CSM are -best fielded- as large units of (supposedly) 'elite' troops.

The same reason they play up each legion's fluff when describing their strength? "WE are supposed to be good at melee so look at all these fluffy melee bonuses" in the same way they did "CSM should be fielded in large squads look at all these fluffy bonuses to make that more viable!"

What? A +1 LD or reroll on morale doesn't make large squads more viable. It makes the unit more of a target and the opponent more aware that they can push casualties on the unit to the point it can be wiped out by morale regardless of the test (thus effectively killing more points).

Leadership bonuses and morale rerolls make it even easier to do MSU spam and never care about morale, as you can build to be statistically likely that you will never lose a model to 'suddenly dropping dead because reasons.'

A unit of 5 taking four casualties probably won't lose the last one, especially with ld 9 or a reroll, so you have to kill each the hard way. So if you have 20 spread around 4 units, you have to kill each one, and you'll probably waste shots on overkill
A single unit of 20 taking 10+ casualties _will_ take morale losses, making shooting at them much more effective.


Meanwhile, 'every model gets an extra attack when charging' is a no-brainer trait if you plan on fielding large numbers of melee units. (Though the EC trait is more universal, effective on attack or defense, and allows you to kill more and prevent deaths of your own models, so it is better)

So, CSM have access to Send In The Next Wave now.

 ross-128 wrote:
So, CSM have access to Send In The Next Wave now.

I'm dreading the stratagems and stupid bonuses Guard will get when their book rolls around. Anyone who thinks it's bad now are missing the big picture.

Hmm, it looks like the preview is also saying cultists are getting a point cost reduction, at least for Word Bearers?

"Chaos Cultists have long been a popular pick for Chaos Space Marines armies, and the Word Bearers are famous for the devoted throngs of followers that make up their forces. With a discounted points cost for matched play..."

 ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, it looks like the preview is also saying cultists are getting a point cost reduction, at least for Word Bearers?

"Chaos Cultists have long been a popular pick for Chaos Space Marines armies, and the Word Bearers are famous for the devoted throngs of followers that make up their forces. With a discounted points cost for matched play..."

I doubt it is word bearer specific. Indeed, even the cultist strategem is general use.

Yeah cultists go down to 4 ppm, a lot of our stuff got cheaper or buffs.

Voss wrote:
What? A +1 LD or reroll on morale doesn't make large squads more viable. It makes the unit more of a target and the opponent more aware that they can push casualties on the unit to the point it can be wiped out by morale regardless of the test (thus effectively killing more points).

I didn't say they did s good job of making large squads viable, I said that's why they are pushing the idea of large CSM squads. Because they want them to be viable because it'd be fluffy. They failed (sorta, a few exceptions) but that's why they are talking about it.

All looks pretty terrible to me. Can't even think of a circumstance where you would be glad to be word bearers over anything else.

Yup. Renegades for me.

Tyel wrote:
All looks pretty terrible to me. Can't even think of a circumstance where you would be glad to be word bearers over anything else.

If you like cultists, hate morale, and love daemons?

But it barely helps any of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More than the other legions.

Tyel wrote:
All looks pretty terrible to me. Can't even think of a circumstance where you would be glad to be word bearers over anything else.

Play a full daemon army with Word Bearer summoners. Customize your army according to what the enemy brought. You need tons of daemon models but can easily drop thousands of points worth of reinforcements onto the table, including the Arch-Daemon summoning from Forge World to bring in guys like An'ggrath.

Between tanky horrors, slashy nettes, khorne blob slaughter, nurgle resilience, and the horde of adaptable greater daemons, you can field any sort of army you please and don't have to bring a specific list in advance.

 Arkaine wrote:
Play a full daemon army with Word Bearer summoners. Customize your army according to what the enemy brought. You need tons of daemon models but can easily drop thousands of points worth of reinforcements onto the table, including the Arch-Daemon summoning from Forge World to bring in guys like An'ggrath.

Between tanky horrors, slashy nettes, khorne blob slaughter, nurgle resilience, and the horde of adaptable greater daemons, you can field any sort of army you please and don't have to bring a specific list in advance.

You do have to pay for those models though.

Its a cool idea and might work in a narrative game. In a proper game though I feel you are asking to be alpha/beta struck off the table on turn one.

As said above there is also nothing especially "word bearers" about it beyond that single stratagem.

I didn't think they could come up with a tactic which was even more situational than IF/IW's ignoring cover. Turns out I was wrong. I can see the re-roll morale coming up maybe once in every ten games. Perhaps even one in a hundred. I guess you could "build around it" by getting big squads - but inviting losses from morale just to make use of a re-roll is hardly a good plan.

I've been doing CSM since 3rd edition and Word Bearers for me were always the Zealot Cultists running around in "We <3 Daemons" T-shirts.

The summoning aspect is typical and the morale helps you field more cultists with fewer losses (there will be plenty of morale failure). In fact the older editions did something similar.

Since the Tide of Traitors stratagem restores Cultists to full strength, having them lose fewer models to morale failure can mean the difference between having them slaughtered to the last model or barely alive long enough to come back to the field at full strength. A single survivor can become a pack 40 strong again for 2 CP.

Still not sure cultists going to be worth it as they're still not completely immune to morale. And you still want to go firts and fielding a lot of squads prevents that.

It can be fun and all but i doubt you will be able to win a lot of games with t3 6+ 4 ppm guys. I'd like to point out that they're still WAY inferior to conscripts that are shootier, more durable and immune to morale, yet 25% cheaper.

 koooaei wrote:
Still not sure cultists going to be worth it as they're still not completely immune to morale. And you still want to go firts and fielding a lot of squads prevents that.

It can be fun and all but i doubt you will be able to win a lot of games with t3 6+ 4 ppm guys. I'd like to point out that they're still WAY inferior to conscripts that are shootier, more durable and immune to morale, yet 25% cheaper.

Conscripts are only immune to Moral with a comissar.

I could see the Tide of traitors stratigum being kinda useful though, use a swarm of cultists as a meat shield and then when they're nearly gone, hit tide of traitors and swarm the back line.

BrianDavion wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Still not sure cultists going to be worth it as they're still not completely immune to morale. And you still want to go firts and fielding a lot of squads prevents that.

It can be fun and all but i doubt you will be able to win a lot of games with t3 6+ 4 ppm guys. I'd like to point out that they're still WAY inferior to conscripts that are shootier, more durable and immune to morale, yet 25% cheaper.

Conscripts are only immune to Moral with a comissar.

I could see the Tide of traitors stratigum being kinda useful though, use a swarm of cultists as a meat shield and then when they're nearly gone, hit tide of traitors and swarm the back line.

If the Dark Apostle could kill a Cultist and completely negate the morale check, we would say that Cultists are immune to morale.

The fact that we MUST re-roll failed morale tests is daft. So, if we take more casualties than we have Ld, we MUST re-roll a 1 even though it's the best case outcome

Leveraging Tide of Traitors and our Warlord's wider aura looks to be our best gimmick tbh. A bunch of Havocs can stand on roofs and hear the boss telling them to shoot straight, with a very wide Cultist screen against Reivers doing grapnel takedowns. Let the screen get ground down, then recycle it in the enemy's rear. Though it's still two CP, which could give a Plasma Chosen squad a second round of firing.

Yeah their legion tactic seems very weak. The warlord trait is nice but not amazing. The Stratagem is better used by most other legions (specifically Black Legion and Iron Warriors with their access to ignoring morale completely).

The only reason i can see to run anything as Word Bearers is for the summoning stratagem, which might be cool, but it does seem strange that is all they get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
The fact that we MUST re-roll failed morale tests is daft. So, if we take more casualties than we have Ld, we MUST re-roll a 1 even though it's the best case outcome

Leveraging Tide of Traitors and our Warlord's wider aura looks to be our best gimmick tbh. A bunch of Havocs can stand on roofs and hear the boss telling them to shoot straight, with a very wide Cultist screen against Reivers doing grapnel takedowns. Let the screen get ground down, then recycle it in the enemy's rear. Though it's still two CP, which could give a Plasma Chosen squad a second round of firing.

Where does it say MUST? The rule says you "can."

Don't forget red corsairs and therefor renegades can ignore morale, to further indicate word bearers don't even have good morale options.

Also, Abaddon negates morale for any CSM unit. Not just BL. Now, you'd have to take him in a separate detachment to get your legion traits but this still has utility. His reroll aura only applies to BL, so you would need to think about it.

So for example you can use him as a mini Robby G. Take a spearhead detachment of BL and set him up with some tanks in the back. You can then use cultists from a battalion of whatever legion you normally play to guard them while the rest of your army does its thing.

It's better than trying to rely on word bearer rules if you want cultists. It's also probably the best way to field a BL detachment given how poor their rules are overall.

I mean it looks like we're just based around summoning, hiding behind a wall of cultists and using the Dark Apostles and Sorcerers to keep them alive, while using our characters to summon in the big guns.

It feels pretty thematic which is nice, but at the same time I could see things like Eldar tabling you really quickly