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While their online "FAQ's'" do allow us to use the index when things are not present, it makes no sense to not include Lords with jump packs and Mounts, Sorcerer bikes etc

Obviously they have been pushing for a long time for less conversion, (Pre posed/built models etc) and not listing anything they do not directly sell, but they do sell bikes and troops with jump packs, to make a basic HQ all you need to do is replace the head, extra detail etc

Seems very foolish to not include these in the codex, and is another step of marketing and profit counting over anyone actually enjoying their game within the staff it seems. Especially as on their community website which clearly shows a night lords HQ with a jump pack, equipped with a relic from the new Codex, to then not include it and expect some kind of cross reference between; using the index then equipping extras from the codex

A codex should always be everything possible for that army, with some great conversion possibilities as this is where armies really shine and become individual, who wants to fight models that are in the exact same pose as your own?? a codex shouldn't just be a sales catalouge , the more they negate individualism the less they will sell in the long term.

it seems now we have Lords of walk, the great sorcerer on his legs of steel, which makes giving them relics surly pretty useless? as they slowly walk towards the enemy like a standard marine

people will probably shout /SALT, my body is ready.

I can see why things they make nothing even remotely similar to would be removed (Ie Nid Drop Pod before the Tyrannocyte kit) but completely agree with you that things that are a kitbash away should be kept.

People spend more that way anyway. Just looking at Facebook you see people bashing the new Chaplain and Apothecary together to make Bile a new model. Way more $$$ than his eventual update will cost.

I'm really excited for the ork codex, but Marines losing their bike characters makes me a lititle nervous.

Forge World makes a warboss on bike so maybe we'll be safe.

Are you sure the jumppack option is gone for the Chaos Lord? Because GW still sells that very model.

I also wonder why people assume that FW-only model options will stay in upcoming codexes - Ork Warboss on bike for example. That would mean that GW is going out of their way to remove options that are available with easy kitbashes (characters on bikes, with jumppacks, the list is long...), but as no problem telling me I need to head over to FW to cover a codex option? Eh...

Either way, while GW seems to push a "no models, no rules" narrative, this is oviously not true.

So can we still use these options since they are in the index, or can we only use whats available in the codex?

Anything not in the codex but covered by the index is still legal to use - just use the index rules.

Jump Pack option is still in the codex - it's an upgrade rather than a separate unit entry.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Jump Pack option is still in the codex - it's an upgrade rather than a separate unit entry.

Thanks for the confirmation. That's the same as in the index.

ahhh yes! jump packs at least thats good, considering they do sell jump packs, juggernauts, bikes and a sorcerer on a mount thats a strange tactic for them to adopt in the codex

a codex should be the 'bible' of your army, covering everything possible and allowing for some flare of creativity allowing for some individualism. instead you have to flick back to the index, and tell your opponent no its ok.
if they release another FAQ that you can use the codex relics, and any updates on index models i guess that will solve it...

and of course anything FW will be in FW books only, this has always been the case.

it seems less 'no models no rules' and more, 'no converting please everything should look the same, with the same pose'
fine for SM, but not really the embodiment of Chaos

im half way through building my mounted lords and bike lords with stylised weapons , hence the annoyance the codex disregards them

I've heard that GW has legal problems of offering rules for models without actual models. Can't remember the actual details but

 Klowny wrote:
I've heard that GW has legal problems of offering rules for models without actual models. Can't remember the actual details but

Look up 'Chapter House'

And for the record, giving conversion options= good

Forcing me to butcher a model just so I can use its most effective loadout is unnacceptable stupid fething bullgak. I've glued guns to foreheads before out of pure frustration.

The correct answer here was to make models with more options, not limit what is possible. But given the choice...I'd take just less work.

I've got a box of Hellstriders on order for making a mounted Lord and Sorcerer and have Juggerlord and Palanquin, unhappy customer right here.

Using the Index is all well and good, once an FAQ clarifies where the entries stand with regard to wargear options (notably Axe Juggerlords), but it still means no mounted Exalted Champions in a game about auras and mobility. It also means no guarantee of compatibility when the core rules and balance of points develop, adapt, and mutate in such a way that obsoletes the current entries.

Honestly I'm exasperated that Sigmar gets a unit of mortals riding Juggernauts but in 40K they're basically a Tomb King. Particularly grinds that they make a sorcerer on disc, it's in a very new set, and that set is obviously what people will buy when they want to add Tzeentch-marked Sorcerers to a polytheist Legion collection that just a month ago were told hey, go ahead and buy some Rubrics, they'll look awesome painted up with blue and lightning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't buy Chapterhouse as a reason for this. GW already make models with a Steed of Slaanesh, Juggernaut of Khorne, and Palanquin of Nurgle. Their copyright on statuettes of those fictional entities is surely in the bag.

with chapter house, i think this is where the GW side of the profit team have justified removing some of the lords options. they dont want another company to make these options, and GW only has the rights to things they actually make models for

but i dont see how kitbashing a steed or mount will break their profit margins, its nit-picking on both sides, me as the consumer and them as a buisness.. but this is a hobby customers should/ are usually for life and
and since there are GW options for conversion purposes, it should of been a no-brainer to include this in the codex

tl;dr HQ should always have conversion possibilities and steeds were so open to interpritation you never saw to chaos armys posed the same, as they should be the unique point of your army, everything else fair enough.

JoeForce wrote:
with chapter house, i think this is where the GW side of the profit team have justified removing some of the lords options. they dont want another company to make these options, and GW only has the rights to things they actually make models for

but i dont see how kitbashing a steed or mount will break their profit margins, its nit-picking on both sides, me as the consumer and them as a buisness.. but this is a hobby customers should/ are usually for life and
and since there are GW options for conversion purposes, it should of been a no-brainer to include this in the codex

tl;dr HQ should always have conversion possibilities and steeds were so open to interpritation you never saw to chaos armys posed the same, as they should be the unique point of your army, everything else fair enough.

This thread is a little off.

Basically, GW simply don't care. You could have spent thousands making a fantastic converted army, but they already have your money and thus don't care. Their business model hinges on 12 year olds dropping $500 of mommy's money on $2 of plastic and then quitting after 3 weeks.

 Darnok wrote:
Anything not in the codex but covered by the index is still legal to use - just use the index rules.

While it's good we can do that, it shouldntvbe encouraged. GW needs to put them in the regular codex.

Generally, when I purchase GW kits, it's rarely for the intended purpose, but for the secondary uses. Be it all the spare guns and bitz from Plastic Sternguard, to using the spellbook shelves in a Celestial Hurricanum for building terrain, or cannibalizing the Necrosphinx kit (incidentally, I miss that kit) for a chariot frame, Forgefiend, Daemon Prince, spider swarms for a Relics of the Crusades campaign, and a kitchen sink! I also purchased 3 Burning Chariot kits before the price hikes for the Wrath of Magnus update, granting me a gaggle of Horrors, Heralds, Exalted Flamers, Screamers, and Discs, one which was perfect for my Chaos Lord, hereby dubbed "Sir Not-appearing-in-this-codex!"

GW needs to realize they're not just competing with Privateer Press or Wyrd or other sources of plastic crack, and not even just against Revell and Gundam kits. They're also competing against LEGO. Half the appeal of collecting plastic crack is non-intended uses. And if their rulesets continue to dissuade coloring outside the lines...let's just say Brikwars is a thing too.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Generally, when I purchase GW kits, it's rarely for the intended purpose, but for the secondary uses. Be it all the spare guns and bitz from Plastic Sternguard, to using the spellbook shelves in a Celestial Hurricanum for building terrain, or cannibalizing the Necrosphinx kit (incidentally, I miss that kit) for a chariot frame, Forgefiend, Daemon Prince, spider swarms for a Relics of the Crusades campaign, and a kitchen sink! I also purchased 3 Burning Chariot kits before the price hikes for the Wrath of Magnus update, granting me a gaggle of Horrors, Heralds, Exalted Flamers, Screamers, and Discs, one which was perfect for my Chaos Lord, hereby dubbed "Sir Not-appearing-in-this-codex!"

GW needs to realize they're not just competing with Privateer Press or Wyrd or other sources of plastic crack, and not even just against Revell and Gundam kits. They're also competing against LEGO. Half the appeal of collecting plastic crack is non-intended uses. And if their rulesets continue to dissuade coloring outside the lines...let's just say Brikwars is a thing too.

I just ordered three hundred bucks worth of brickwars books for a friend who is mega into it.
GW has the wannabe Hasbro virus.
Sad thing is that the MTG and collectible card mentality is too daft to care.
Can't convert a Magic card!
No room for modification.
Just rares and uncommons to collect and catalog.
Not the hobby I signed up for twenty years ago.
Then again a lot has changed.
People read books then.
Not phones.
And collectible card games were flaky pastimes when people were either too slow or too stoned to play real games.
But times change and now 40k seems like MTG with 3d cards...

I would suggest that, after we've officially gotten the book in our hands, we kindly inform GW of the sets from their line that we will not be purchasing because these options do not exist. I was actually gonna get a hellstrider kit and Skullcrushers (the latter being an expensive kit) just to make my heroes. Now that is definitely not happening.

I know they usually don't listen to petition-style things, but hopefully seeing actual number figures (include how much you would have spent in the email too, down to the last penny) they might actually start to realize we're not in this hobby to just buy pre-made models.

 Klowny wrote:
I've heard that GW has legal problems of offering rules for models without actual models. Can't remember the actual details but

No problems, legal or otherwise, they're within their rights to do what they want both rules and model wise. What they've chosen to do is deliberately restrict the scope of the market for third party bits makers by not offering game options for things they'd don't offer model options for, on the assumption that their customers won't want to build models for things they're not "allowed" to use in game without a modicum of house ruling, which, to be fair, is probably a safe bet. Thus the demand for third party bits falls away.

This is because Chapterhouse showed them that they couldn't bully aftermarket producers out of business with cease and desists any longer (something they'd done regularly until they encountered a little guy who actually had the means to stand up and call their bluff) because the majority of their IP wasn't unique enough to be defensible, and it's also completely impossible to sue someone for copying a miniature you don't actually make!

Sadly they could have chosen to leverage their market position to make those options and simply out competed the third parties on quality, price, availability, utility as a market leader can, which would have been better for us as hobbyists and quite possibly financially rewarding for GW, but this was a Kirby/Merret era decision, so there may be hopes for the future bringing a reversal in attitude.

See that is just the proverbial salt in the mortal wound right there. They could have used this edition to make plastic options for all those things that didn't have models for and avoided this mess...but they chose to make primaris marines.

Why there isn't a generic HQ kit for each of the major factions is beyond me. Combine that with a Chaos Mounts sprue (one of each, if someone could be arsed to do a Palanquin) and a Jump Pack//Bike plus appropriate legs sprue and I can't see a downside for either GW or the customer.

They apparently tried that during the release of 7th edition for WHFB (which coincided with the tail end of 4th ed 40k and the beginnings of 5th) where they introduced the Empire Wizards, Empire General, Orc Warboss and Chaos Terminator Lord kits. While somewhat expensive, those kits were pretty comprehensive in the options and bits available. I think this was an extrapolation of the then-new Space Marine Commander plastic kit.

I think those kits were seen as "too expensive" to just converting up a generic guy to those positions, and probably why they stopped that line. However, in hindsight, this seemed premature and silly now since a single clampack Primaris or Stormcast Character costs just as much, if not significantly more, than those kits and have far less options and posability. I really hope that this lapse in judgement is only temporary, and GW would either turn around on this decision in the next round of codexes or revisit the idea of a multi-part character box set. like those from 7th WHFB.

Index options are all perfectly legal.

I've gone and wrote up relevant entries and just taped them to the inside cover of the codex for my Loyalists.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
They apparently tried that during the release of 7th edition for WHFB (which coincided with the tail end of 4th ed 40k and the beginnings of 5th) where they introduced the Empire Wizards, Empire General, Orc Warboss and Chaos Terminator Lord kits. While somewhat expensive, those kits were pretty comprehensive in the options and bits available. I think this was an extrapolation of the then-new Space Marine Commander plastic kit.

I think those kits were seen as "too expensive" to just converting up a generic guy to those positions, and probably why they stopped that line. However, in hindsight, this seemed premature and silly now since a single clampack Primaris or Stormcast Character costs just as much, if not significantly more, than those kits and have far less options and posability. I really hope that this lapse in judgement is only temporary, and GW would either turn around on this decision in the next round of codexes or revisit the idea of a multi-part character box set. like those from 7th WHFB.

I think that was probably the wrong direction too, I think the way forward would be upgrade sprues to combine with other kits, rather than selling a modular kit which is, essentially, still making one model.

I guess the likelihood of that will depend on the success of things like the chapter upgrade sprues, but then, if they're doing them for Primaris as well, that may be a good indicator they did well enough.

I personally liked those kits, and they weren't that much expensive than the metal blisterpacks (since you often got 2 models out of one kit, with the exception of the Chaos Terminator Lord and the space marine commander) when you think about it, and was certainly cheaper than buying a whole box of mooks + an upgrade sprue. I do think there could have been a market for it if GW had just stuck to them.

Plus for the bigger mounted characters, it's entirely justifiable to have them be one-model kits. Like a Juggerlord or a Palaquin Lord would not be that much smaller than a Dreadnought, and that's a single model plastic kit. Bike too (the original bikers were single-model kits).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I personally liked those kits, and they weren't that much expensive than the metal blisterpacks (since you often got 2 models out of one kit, with the exception of the Chaos Terminator Lord and the space marine commander) when you think about it, and was certainly cheaper than buying a whole box of mooks + an upgrade sprue. I do think there could have been a market for it if GW had just stuck to them.

Plus for the bigger mounted characters, it's entirely justifiable to have them be one-model kits. Like a Juggerlord or a Palaquin Lord would not be that much smaller than a Dreadnought, and that's a single model plastic kit. Bike too (the original bikers were single-model kits).

There's definitely a pricepoint issue at hand, and it does scare people when they see a single Chaos Terminator Lord cost about a third the price of a 10-man Chaos Marine box, nevermind the relative degree of extra sprues one might provide over the other.

There was something nice about being able to buy a kit of 5 Terminators, use them for 3 Combi-Plasma Terminators (by chopping up all the spare Plasma Pistols from said Chaos Marines) and having leftovers for a Lord conversion or whatnot. Stuff like forcing Obliterators to be 3-man units or Chaos Terminators to be 5-man are clearly balance decisions and are in no way influenced by marketing.

I'm honestly even surprised Chaos Terminators still keep the option for Combi-Plasma, considering there are no CSM models that actually have it. You hear that GW? You have more options you need to remove, lest you lose your IP!

indeeed they dont want sales going elsewhere, and are/were willing for that to implact the fluff of armys

the logical compromise would just be only conversion options for the HQ units, nothing else. a few models per army wont affect them in any way and only shows they care for the customer more than just a business and that they themselves are fans of warhammer..

releasing a few kits is fine, or just giving suggestions of available GW and FW kitbash ideas, but too late now anyway FAQ's just make things convoluted unless you take a marker pen to your codex, or enjoy a mobile library of doom

would be very interesting to hear their side and justifications for it

and yes hahah they have never made combi-weapons that would go for chosen, or relic weapons, and aside from DV i dont think there have ever been a chosen box set... very random!