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The Guard squad actually is a better choice than conscripts in many lists. for 80ish (instead of 60) points you can get 2 chainswords, 18 lasguns and a better WS and BS.

Scions have a good place in their ability to deploy form reserves. The lower model count makes them pretty damn popular and I can't blame people when their stats aren't too far off from Tac Marines.

2 Caidan Squads with a Company Commander and a Commissar is a great start to your troop choices. Don't bother with the Lord Commisar

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

There is no meaningful difference. Undercosted is undercosted.

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

There is no meaningful difference. Undercosted is undercosted.

There is a difference.
"Too good" implies their rules are broken and need to be nerfed.
"Too cheap" implies that their rules are fine, but their price should increase.
Scions themselves are probably where they need to be price-wise. Plasma is not.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

There is no meaningful difference. Undercosted is undercosted.

There is a difference.
"Too good" implies their rules are broken and need to be nerfed.
"Too cheap" implies that their rules are fine, but their price should increase.
Scions themselves are probably where they need to be price-wise. Plasma is not.

There's not a functional difference, imo. Only a difference in your preferred approach. We could just as easily change their rules and leave their points. Currently, their rules ARE broken because of their price point. You can't extricate the two from each other. A unit is only broken with respect to its point cost.

Considering every single troop option they have is cheap - and good - just like everything in the entire index - I'd say they are fine without the conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A 10 man infantry sqaud unit with an autocannon and a plasma gun is 62 points...and realistically you don't even need the plasma gun- also for 62 points you can have 5 scions with 2 plasma guns and 2 hot shot lasguns.

Or for Crying out loud you can have 10 Scions with hotshot lasguns and hit them with FRFSRF and spit out 40 - ap-2 shots? for 120 points when you add the company commander. This army is so gaking busted.

Martel732 wrote:There's not a functional difference, imo. Only a difference in your preferred approach. We could just as easily change their rules and leave their points. Currently, their rules ARE broken because of their price point. You can't extricate the two from each other. A unit is only broken with respect to its point cost.

I gotta agree with Martel here. Point cost is an essential factor in determining if a unit is good. Are ogryn good when they're 3 points per model? Absolutely! Are they good now. Ehhhh......

Xenomancers wrote:Considering every single troop option they have is cheap - and good - just like everything in the entire index - I'd say they are fine without the conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or for Crying out loud you can have 10 Scions with hotshot lasguns and hit them with FRFSRF and spit out 40 - ap-2 shots? for 120 points when you add the company commander. This army is so gaking busted.

It's more like 18 if you're talking about right out of deep strike. One has a laspistol and the lasguns have 18" range, so you're not rapid firing out of deep strike. So, that's 1-3 dead marines.

At the same distance, scouts get 1-3 dead marines. They cost about the same.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scouts are really good this edition. Unfortunately, I understand they might be a little boring.

You still can spam scions command squads. 4 dudes with plasma and a prime are still way undercosted for what they do and with multiple units you can also dispose of another CP cuz you can bring a vanguard detachment full of scions. I'd take 3 of them everytime if I was an AM power player.

Unless GW removes their ability to deepstrike or scions plasmas become 13 points each like any other imperial plasma gun they will be overpowered for the entire edition.

Personally I use my Plasma Scions as a distraction while my HSVG command squad(s) put in the actual work. I rarely deploy my Scions I'm close proximity so I keep my Tempestor Prime (usually my warlord) back to prevent him from being an easy KP.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Considering every single troop option they have is cheap - and good - just like everything in the entire index - I'd say they are fine without the conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Or for Crying out loud you can have 10 Scions with hotshot lasguns and hit them with FRFSRF and spit out 40 - ap-2 shots? for 120 points when you add the company commander. This army is so gaking busted.

First, 10 Scions + Tempestor Prime is 140 points. They can't take orders from Company Commanders. Second, I like how you forgot that half range of 18" is 9", not 12" and the sergeant cant take a lasgun. It's 18 S3 AP-2 shots for a whopping 2.7 dead MEQ after a deep strike. If by some miracle, the Marine player didn't wipe 10 T3/4+ sv models afterward, then yes your 'totally broken' mathhammer scenario of 37 AP-2 shots could occur, killing a further 5.3 MEQ. Those numbers go down even further if the squad being targeted was in cover.

Guard critics would be taken a lot more seriously if they weren't parading around fantasy scenarios with blatantly false numbers and fake rules as evidence of brokenness.

Oh yeah, I forgot the Prime's cost in there. So the scouts actually do the same damage cheaper, but scouts are really good this edition. Pity that marine players find them so boring.

Anyway, I still stick with that Scions are possibly too good, but it's for want of too cheap of plasma that makes them that way. As kludgy as it is to make their plasma more expensive but leave infantry plasma alone, I think 10 points per PG would be fair for them.

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Plasma scions aren't too good. They are too cheap.

There is no meaningful difference. Undercosted is undercosted.

There is a difference.
"Too good" implies their rules are broken and need to be nerfed.
"Too cheap" implies that their rules are fine, but their price should increase.
Scions themselves are probably where they need to be price-wise. Plasma is not.

There's not a functional difference, imo. Only a difference in your preferred approach. We could just as easily change their rules and leave their points. Currently, their rules ARE broken because of their price point. You can't extricate the two from each other. A unit is only broken with respect to its point cost.

Yes there is a functional difference. If you were to, let's say, remove their airborne drop ability (which would make many non-AM players VERY HAPPY), you would change how they function on the battlefield. Currently the Astra Militarum has no other units with a similar ability, giving them excellent synergy at a steal of a price. Take it away and they suddenly aren't much different from Veterans with Carapace.

What it boils down to is this: if you remove some of their attractive abilities, people will drop them like a hot potato. If you leave the rules alone but increase the prices a little (at least on plasmaguns), people will be upset *but will still take them*. Why? Because they will still do the same job they did before.

Simply put there is a very large, very literal functional difference between an expensive high-utility unit, and a cheap neutered one.

Yes it's true that a unit is only broken with respect to its points cost, but you also have to factor in how said unit functions with the rest of the faction it was made for. Sacrificing abilities to make yet another gunline infantry/mechanized assault squad is a redundancy the guard simply doesn't need.

That's a next-level consideration. Not a unit-level one. It still stands that each broken unit can be fixed by a) increasing points or b) taking away abilities. You are still expressing an opinion as to which would be a better fix. They are too good because they are too cheap. Period. I play marines. My book is filled with crap I don't need at this point. Take a number.

Veterans cost 6 points per man. The difference between Veterans and Scions is 1 point of save (carapace armor), and deep strike.

So you're already paying an extra 3 points per man to upgrade to scions. Their company commander version is also lame, as he has to give up a weapon option to be able to give two commands for the same price as a normal CC, and he doesn't even get an invuln save.

A Space Marine is 13 points base. He comes with a free boltgun, free bolt pistol. He has 3+ armor, T4, BS and WS 3+, an extra point of ld, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF, and he has a 24" rapid fire 1 s4 weapon.

A Scion with his HSLG (which costs 1 point) is 10 points. So you have a 3 point difference between a tactical space marine and a scion.

In my opinion, there isn't room to increase the cost of a scion without increasing the cost of a space marine. And if you take away their deep strike, then guard loses the only deep strike unit they have.

For objective based games normal barebones infantry squads in Chimeras supported by Commanders and Commissars do rather well at taking the field. They need to be supported by HellHounds and Artillery and you need dangerous close support like LR tanks with 3x HF, or dual MM and LC getting up there to take pressure off them.

Except your forgetting the lore of unintended consequences by raising the cost of guard plasma guns to weaken scions you also effect the other units that can take them

Non scion command squads that can't deepstrike are they broken?
What about veteran squads?
How about infantry with its one plasma?
What about rough riders?
Special weapon squads?

So your effecting a lot more than just the scions you want to weaken I don't recall non scion command squads and special weapons teams being broken not saying you can't increase the pts but it's not the simple fix. When GW nerfed storm ravens they hit a lot of underused units as well.

Getting rid of deepstrike would cripple scion's and make them unplayable as a catachan player who doesn't use them I think that's a bad move GW need to stop destroying units to the point of unplayability or people will get board of making new armies every 4 weeks.

Here's a few other options
1) Give enough time for the meta to come up with answers many lists have too many anti-tank guns and not enough anti-infantry a hang over from 7th when they wern't needed. Time might allow people to come up with answers that do exist in your codexs.

2) Raise the cost of scions higher cost and suddenly their not so hot and it doesnt effect other units.

3) Lower hot shots to AP1 this would weaken scions as troops but not effect the command squads but command squads alone require the tax.

4) make players choose between scions and conscripts. Your either a regiment of raw recruits with some hardened guardsman or your an elite deepstrikeing top of the line force your not both. Breaking the synergy with conscripts makes it harder for scion players to hold their objectives as a lot of the fuss is about the combination one good unit is not as strong.

5) Give more rewards for playing other regiments catachan's and cadians not a fix for scions itself but it would help increase diversity so all guard lists didn't look the same and if there was more variety there might be less fuss.

6) Sort the other weapons out. - Melta is underpowered across all codex's increase its damage and make it a more viable alternative. Also make some of the anti-personal weapons more effective vs large units.

7) Upgrade the weaker performing factions as their codexs come out. Power is also comparative if other faction get stronger guard won't seem so strong. Also if marines keep losing maybe their infantry need a 1pt reduction to balance them. Also see if the new chapter tactics etc. make a difference.

7) Finnally just leave it as it is not all codexs have to be equal just ask nids players what 7th was like. Guard are top tear now this means other factions have to drop. Unfortunate if it's yours unlucky but that's not a problem try another faction if you want to be a top tournament player.

Actually they were saying raising plasmaguns for scions only.

Such a ruling has precedence in this edition already, in fact; after all, thunder hammers cost more for characters than for non-characters.

U02dah4 wrote:
Except your forgetting the lore of unintended consequences by raising the cost of guard plasma guns to weaken scions you also effect the other units that can take them

Just have separate prices for Scions.

 argonak wrote:
Veterans cost 6 points per man. The difference between Veterans and Scions is 1 point of save (carapace armor), and deep strike.

So you're already paying an extra 3 points per man to upgrade to scions. Their company commander version is also lame, as he has to give up a weapon option to be able to give two commands for the same price as a normal CC, and he doesn't even get an invuln save.

A Space Marine is 13 points base. He comes with a free boltgun, free bolt pistol. He has 3+ armor, T4, BS and WS 3+, an extra point of ld, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF, and he has a 24" rapid fire 1 s4 weapon.

A Scion with his HSLG (which costs 1 point) is 10 points. So you have a 3 point difference between a tactical space marine and a scion.

In my opinion, there isn't room to increase the cost of a scion without increasing the cost of a space marine. And if you take away their deep strike, then guard loses the only deep strike unit they have.

Just spit balling here, but would a possible solution to Scions be to up them by 1 point, and make HSLG free? That way the base model is still 10 points, but they no longer get their 1 point discount on special weapons. Combine this with bumping plasma to 10 points and they become still useful but not as much of an auto take as before.

 More Dakka wrote:
For objective based games normal barebones infantry squads in Chimeras supported by Commanders and Commissars do rather well at taking the field. They need to be supported by HellHounds and Artillery and you need dangerous close support like LR tanks with 3x HF, or dual MM and LC getting up there to take pressure off them.

I ran a list like this but didn't include enough artillery / tank support and found out that my Inf Squads in Chimeras, while great for taking objectives and very resilient, just didn't have enough firepower to deal with tough threats. I figured that because Chimeras are quite pricey but great up close (with dual HF) the best way to run a mech infantry list would be with, like you said, Hellhounds and artillery. I would leave the LRBTs out though because they are so pricey compared to Arty or HHs and the Chimeras already suck up a lot of points.

Edit: As for Scions, I think just reducing the number of special weapons to 2 max in 5 and 10 man squads (with 4 still in Command Squads) would fix them. Yes you could just spam 5 man squads, but you would need more Commanders to hand out orders thus decreasing order and point efficiency. Since the real issue with Scions is the overcharged-plasmas spam with re-rolls, issue, this would probably be a good fix that wouldn't ruin them.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually they were saying raising plasmaguns for scions only.

Such a ruling has precedence in this edition already, in fact; after all, thunder hammers cost more for characters than for non-characters.

GK Terminators pay quite a bit more for their special weapons too (in spite of the fact that they don't get anything out of it).

 vipoid wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Except your forgetting the lore of unintended consequences by raising the cost of guard plasma guns to weaken scions you also effect the other units that can take them

Just have separate prices for Scions.

Shall we raise prices for guard command squads and veterans as well then? They're BS 3+ too. They can double tap rerolling 1s too. The only thing they can't do is deep strike.

I think the complaints would drop if we just eliminated command squads. People use them as a suicide plasma unit, because they can deep strike in rapid fire range. If your "suicide" unit is minimum 150 points versus 64, I think the complaints would drop.

Seems like this thread is going off topic with people crying/trying to nerf Scions. Not sure why I visit these forums anymore ...

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Seems like this thread is going off topic with people crying/trying to nerf Scions. Not sure why I visit these forums anymore ...

If you think that's bad, just look at any single thread where conscripts get mentioned. Mod handed out warning after warning and people still derailed threads over it.

Regardless, with no conscripts or scions, IG relies solely on guard squads for its troops.

And they're probably fairly priced, so you can bring a reasonable amount of them and still have other units in your army. They have superior offensive fire to conscripts (150% firepower per lasgun shot for 133% of the points), plus the ability to take a special weapon. Flamers to penalize charging, plasmaguns to hit MEQ, or a heavy weapon to sit back and hope for a lucky shot, while denying deep strike. Individual guard squads go down faster than a fully loaded conscript squad... but well, it should really, given that you're paying 150 points vs 40 points. 4 guard squads at 160 is very much superior to the conscript squad as an all around unit.

At the same time... they're still just guardsmen. The main problem with them is kill points. At the same time, guard really doesn't even have a reason to bother competing in kill points to begin with, it's not a very fair game mechanic.

 Melissia wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Seems like this thread is going off topic with people crying/trying to nerf Scions. Not sure why I visit these forums anymore ...

If you think that's bad, just look at any single thread where conscripts get mentioned. Mod handed out warning after warning and people still derailed threads over it.

Regardless, with no conscripts or scions, IG relies solely on conscript squads for its troops.

And they're probably fairly priced, so you can bring a reasonable amount of them and still have other units in your army. They have superior offensive fire to conscripts (150% firepower per lasgun shot for 133% of the points), plus the ability to take a special weapon. Flamers to penalize charging, plasmaguns to hit MEQ, or a heavy weapon to sit back and hope for a lucky shot, while denying deep strike. Individual guard squads go down faster than a fully loaded conscript squad... but well, it should really, given that you're paying 150 points vs 40 points. 4 guard squads at 160 is very much superior to the conscript squad as an all around unit.

At the same time... they're still just guardsmen. The main problem with them is kill points. At the same time, guard really doesn't even have a reason to bother competing in kill points to begin with, it's not a very fair game mechanic.

Kill points is indeed a huge issue when running Infantry Squads. My last two games where we randomized the mission ended up being kill point games and I knew my only hope was to table the opponent.

That should read "relied solely on guard squads". Man that's a sad slip of the tongue.

 Melissia wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Seems like this thread is going off topic with people crying/trying to nerf Scions. Not sure why I visit these forums anymore ...

If you think that's bad, just look at any single thread where conscripts get mentioned. Mod handed out warning after warning and people still derailed threads over it.

Regardless, with no conscripts or scions, IG relies solely on guard squads for its troops.

And they're probably fairly priced, so you can bring a reasonable amount of them and still have other units in your army. They have superior offensive fire to conscripts (150% firepower per lasgun shot for 133% of the points), plus the ability to take a special weapon. Flamers to penalize charging, plasmaguns to hit MEQ, or a heavy weapon to sit back and hope for a lucky shot, while denying deep strike. Individual guard squads go down faster than a fully loaded conscript squad... but well, it should really, given that you're paying 150 points vs 40 points. 4 guard squads at 160 is very much superior to the conscript squad as an all around unit.

At the same time... they're still just guardsmen. The main problem with them is kill points. At the same time, guard really doesn't even have a reason to bother competing in kill points to begin with, it's not a very fair game mechanic.

What are your thoughts on Veterans? I'd like them more if they had carapace armor back as an option, 2 points for BS3+ doesn't really seem worth it, although the expanded weapon options are nice. I see zero appeal in shotguns over lasguns.

Maybe run them with 3 plasma guns and a lascannon? Keep them behind normal guardsman (or the other troop unit that shall not be mentioned) and try and get some work from their BS3+?

 argonak wrote:
Maybe run them with 3 plasma guns and a lascannon? Keep them behind normal guardsman (or the other troop unit that shall not be mentioned) and try and get some work from their BS3+?

I mean, the only use I really see for veterans is to do flamer+shotgun assault. And even then the problem is getting them there...

 argonak wrote:


What are your thoughts on Veterans? I'd like them more if they had carapace armor back as an option, 2 points for BS3+ doesn't really seem worth it, although the expanded weapon options are nice. I see zero appeal in shotguns over lasguns.

Scions kind of became the new carapace veterans. Close to 10 points, troop choice, 4+ armor, BS 3+. Lots of special weapons, and we'll toss in nice lasguns, because we're going to roll them together with stormtroopers.

They're going to have to do something real special with vets to distinguish them from scions at this point, and I don't honestly know what that would be.

Maybe run them with 3 plasma guns and a lascannon? Keep them behind normal guardsman (or the other troop unit that shall not be mentioned) and try and get some work from their BS3+?

Running them behind anything doesn't get you anything except a range bubble. You're better off driving that chimera up and hoping that it survives long enough for them to get to use those special weapons, once.

 argonak wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Seems like this thread is going off topic with people crying/trying to nerf Scions. Not sure why I visit these forums anymore ...

If you think that's bad, just look at any single thread where conscripts get mentioned. Mod handed out warning after warning and people still derailed threads over it.

Regardless, with no conscripts or scions, IG relies solely on guard squads for its troops.

And they're probably fairly priced, so you can bring a reasonable amount of them and still have other units in your army. They have superior offensive fire to conscripts (150% firepower per lasgun shot for 133% of the points), plus the ability to take a special weapon. Flamers to penalize charging, plasmaguns to hit MEQ, or a heavy weapon to sit back and hope for a lucky shot, while denying deep strike. Individual guard squads go down faster than a fully loaded conscript squad... but well, it should really, given that you're paying 150 points vs 40 points. 4 guard squads at 160 is very much superior to the conscript squad as an all around unit.

At the same time... they're still just guardsmen. The main problem with them is kill points. At the same time, guard really doesn't even have a reason to bother competing in kill points to begin with, it's not a very fair game mechanic.

What are your thoughts on Veterans? I'd like them more if they had carapace armor back as an option, 2 points for BS3+ doesn't really seem worth it, although the expanded weapon options are nice. I see zero appeal in shotguns over lasguns.

Maybe run them with 3 plasma guns and a lascannon? Keep them behind normal guardsman (or the other troop unit that shall not be mentioned) and try and get some work from their BS3+?

I know you're not asking me, but they will probably gain carapace as an option in the Codex.
I run two squads of Lascannon/plasma vets with Harker buffing hit rolls and a Company Commander buffing wound rolls. It's lethal, especially when overheating. Only issue is that they are still guardsmen and dedicated firepower will take them out. Don't rely on them alone.

I can see shotguns being good with three meltaguns and a plasma pistol, loaded in a Valk/Chimera with an officer and maybe another character. Jump out and use the "take aim!" order. You can only do 1 order per unit per turn, and you don't want to waste FRFSRF on your melta vets anyhow. Meltaguns and Shotguns both want to be within 6" for maximum power, so they work well together.

I like vets but they need fortifications and it's a shame they are so overcosted