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 Melissia wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated.

Oh, I think they're definitely more useful than conscripts. Conscripts basically excel at exactly one thing, but the infantry squad can do that plenty adequately enough and can also do more than that.

I've stopped using conscripts entirely and I'm doing just fine. You can cram a lot of infantry squads into a list, and they are great for denying deepstrikers from getting into your back lines. They also help you get insane amounts of Command Points. Guard can easily do 1brigade and 2battalions in 2000pts, all battle-forged for a whopping 18 CP total,

I haven't stopped using scions, but I am contemplating alternatives. Everything I can think of is so much more expensive because it relies on transports for mobility. And there is only one TROOPS unit that can fit in transports and isn't scions (discounting Conscripts in a Superheavy!). They are definitely hard to live without.

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated. I run them all day every day.

You can run them barebones for 40 points
Better BS than conscripts
Can have Special/heavy weapons
Sarge can have a power weapon
They fit in transports
Give you more tactical flexibility than conscripts

As a bonus, they make it easy to fill out Brigades and Battalions for cheap.

I'm not trying to imply that they are better than conscripts, but when you are playing a friendly game they will get you through. I don't want to spend forever moving 50-man blobs anyhow. Only in a super-competitive game will I consider that.

I agree, I only run infantry squads in my guard so far and they do just fine. I just need to buy some more boxes so I can retire my Bolt Action proxies. I am thinking about running a couple squads of veterans in my future games though, to try and make use of that extra BS without paying full scion price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated.

Oh, I think they're definitely more useful than conscripts. Conscripts basically excel at exactly one thing, but the infantry squad can do that plenty adequately enough and can also do more than that.

I've stopped using conscripts entirely and I'm doing just fine. You can cram a lot of infantry squads into a list, and they are great for denying deepstrikers from getting into your back lines. They also help you get insane amounts of Command Points. Guard can easily do 1brigade and 2battalions in 2000pts, all battle-forged for a whopping 18 CP total,

I haven't stopped using scions, but I am contemplating alternatives. Everything I can think of is so much more expensive because it relies on transports for mobility. And there is only one TROOPS unit that can fit in transports and isn't scions (discounting Conscripts in a Superheavy!). They are definitely hard to live without.

I really want to give special weapon rough riders a try in my next game. I think they'll be a good mobile plasma platform.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sossen, if you're so sad about tac Marines being what they are, then start playing a different army.

I'm simply explaining the facts, there's no judgment in what I'm saying. It's a game with rules, tac marines have rules that prohibit their usefulness in a competitive setting. That doesn't mean that I don't like the models or avoid them when playing casual games.

Pretty much this.

Well my point being folks who play other armies come into imperial guard threads and derail them with complaints of their own units and comparing apples to oranges. I'm just getting tired of it.

Go back to the original post, which was claiming that increasing the cost of scions would mandate an increase in the cost of space marines for consistency's sake. My point is that this is not the case because scions are much better per pt.

I think the point being made was that, take away deep strike and special weapons spam, and Scions on their own aren't better point per point than tacticals. The problem is they get plasmaguns too cheaply and they can deep strike for free.

They're not really overpowered on their own, but as a vehicle for cheap overcharged plasmaguns that can be dropped almost anywhere on the map. Because plasma is probably too powerful this edition, and deep striking allows them to suicide plasma overcharge.

The point being made was take away deep strike and tacticals are significantly better than scions. I also think your perception of how cost effective scions are does depend on your army. They are superb against elite armies but against infantry hoard they struggle to make their points back because they don't get it back in one turn.

 Blackie wrote:

Tactical squads also suck. Their best quality is the possibility of bringing a razorback with twin assault cannon as their dedicated transport

If i get it right, dedicated transports are no longer limited to certain units. You can bring a razorback as a dedicated transport to your stormraven.

Also, tacticals don't suck. Supported by one or two HQs, three tactical squads can erase a freaking 50-man conscript squad protected by a commissar in one turn-- a feat very few things can manage for the same price. Certainly very few troops can manage that at any rate.

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated. I run them all day every day.

You can run them barebones for 40 points
Better BS than conscripts
Can have Special/heavy weapons
Sarge can have a power weapon
They fit in transports
Give you more tactical flexibility than conscripts

As a bonus, they make it easy to fill out Brigades and Battalions for cheap.

I'm not trying to imply that they are better than conscripts, but when you are playing a friendly game they will get you through. I don't want to spend forever moving 50-man blobs anyhow. Only in a super-competitive game will I consider that.

I agree that infantry squads are useful and i currently run them as my second line. But sarge taking a power sword is not much of a selling point. Two str 3 attacks on ws4+ is not a platform worth 4 times the cost of a boltgun so you can maybe use it once before dying horribly to whatever charged you or the super pissed off friends of the one guy you killed on the charge.

All that whining about increasing the costs for scion plasma when everyone already noticed it´s about their deep strike ability.

Remove that DS ability, reduce the costs per scion by 2 points and then give the squad the option to choose a DS gear for around 30 points.
That would adress the problem directly. But of course all DS units have to be reviewed.

Firefox1 wrote:
Remove that DS ability, reduce the costs per scion by 2 points and then give the squad the option to choose a DS gear for around 30 points.

It would be nice if the proposed "fixes" for Scions weren't designed to either make them unplayable or else remove their only meaningful advantage.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, tacticals don't suck. Supported by one or two HQs, three tactical squads can erase a freaking 50-man conscript squad protected by a commissar in one turn-- a feat very few things can manage for the same price. Certainly very few troops can manage that at any rate.

There are lots of units that can do that at the same price point - if they are allowed to gear themselves optimally for the task, are all placed within flamer range and then shoot+charge, all while assuming that they get to that range unharmed.

Also, 30 points-- six points per model? Ridiculous! It should be 2ppm at most, which is 10 points for a squad of five. 3ppm is what marines pay for non-character jump packs. 2ppm is what reivers pay for grav-chutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:
if they are allowed to gear themselves optimally for the task, are all placed within flamer range and then shoot+charge, all while assuming that they get to that range unharmed.

Your rants about conscripts always gave conscripts every advantage. I'm not obligated to participate in your defeatist fantasies and assume the same.

It's the new GW way if your list wins a tournament people will keep whineing rather than try to build to counter it until GW nerf it to oblivion. Acolytes too strong goodbye stormravens too strong goodbye and now people expect hoards to go the same way. However there are anti infantry tools not being used in many lists and this problem is meta counterable.

It seems like at least by this thread Jury is split on scions power. The interesting things i's that the meta counter to scion lists is to take less vehicles and more tac squads and asside from whining that they are not hyper competitive no one has actually made a case that they are bad. Just stated it while making a comparison with one of the best troop choices in the army that specialises in troops.

Weapon diversity is an issue but would it not make more sense to strengthen meltas and grenade launchers to make them equality competative rather than kill plasmas

U02dah4 wrote:


...stormravens too strong goodbye...

Stormravens are exactly the same unit with the same price that they had at the start of the edition. The "flyers only" list has been nerfed, but it was clearly a mistake, playing with 5 stormravens is not even 40k. But if it's ok for a lot of people to play with and against 4 imperial knights I guess a list with only stormravens doesn't look wrong either.

You can still play with 1-3 of those nasty things in a quite effective list. Stormravens are still overpowered.

 vipoid wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:
Remove that DS ability, reduce the costs per scion by 2 points and then give the squad the option to choose a DS gear for around 30 points.

It would be nice if the proposed "fixes" for Scions weren't designed to either make them unplayable or else remove their only meaningful advantage.

Without DS they would be as playable as Veterans and if they opt to take the DS capability at least they pay decent points for that.
So sorry i don´t understand what you mean, please explain.

Firefox1 wrote:
Without DS they would be as playable as Veterans and if they opt to take the DS capability at least they pay decent points for that.
So sorry i don´t understand what you mean, please explain.

The points you are demanding they pay to deep strike are absurd. Tactical Marines pay just 3pts for Jump Packs (which give the not only deep strike but also double movement), yet you would have Scions pay twice that (more for Command Squads) just for the deep strike ability.

With your proposal, you might as well just remove Scions from the codex. It's clearly what you want and it's what your changes amount to.

I wasn´t fixed on that number, just throw one into the room, sorry for being not clear on that. And voted also to review every unit with that ability.
But it is simply wrong to cry for increased plasma costs when it all depends on DS.
And while i´m fine with less, i´m sure some here will cry for more.

What amount would you propose?

Firefox1 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:
Remove that DS ability, reduce the costs per scion by 2 points and then give the squad the option to choose a DS gear for around 30 points.

It would be nice if the proposed "fixes" for Scions weren't designed to either make them unplayable or else remove their only meaningful advantage.

Without DS they would be as playable as Veterans and if they opt to take the DS capability at least they pay decent points for that.
So sorry i don´t understand what you mean, please explain.

On what planet would they be as playable as veterans.
Veteran squad 3 plasmas and boltgun 82pts same as Scions in that scenario so veterans double their wounds and exchange 3 hot shots for 6 lasguns and an extra plasma and regiment bonuses (plus additional options such as an HWT and heavy flamer in exhange for not having deep strike).

Meanwhile Scion squad 2 plasmas at -2 pts 52pts. Would be terrible as while they can damage output they would be dead before they ever got in range. They often struggle to make pt's back with prime targeting

Finnally rough riders with duel Plasmas comes in at 60pts so what would you be gaining for an extra 22.

Also I don't see all that many veterans.

Tell you what why don't we fix the guard codex by adding a 0 on the end of all pts cost and balance space marines by making them 5pts per modal because because your aim seems to be to destroy the unit rather than balance


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Firefox1 wrote:
I wasn´t fixed on that number, just throw one into the room, sorry for being not clear on that. And voted also to review every unit with that ability.
But it is simply wrong to cry for increased plasma costs when it all depends on DS.
And while i´m fine with less, i´m sure some here will cry for more.

What amount would you propose?

0 seems a more appropropiate number for balance between armies. A 1pt per scion increase would weaken them to average

The denial of conscripts to scion players and an upgrade of melta/ grade launchers would be a better fix

No, i would honestly like to have the special weapons costs for scions increased to space marines levels or close to it. After all they get the same mileage out of those special weapons that SM get, why would they pay less for them?

Spoletta wrote:
No, i would honestly like to have the special weapons costs for scions increased to space marines levels or close to it. After all they get the same mileage out of those special weapons that SM get, why would they pay less for them?

Because they're significantly less durable? It's an important point because Scions rarely get to fire their weapons more than once.

To be clear, I do think they should pay more for plasma (probably around 10pts), I just don't think they should pay full marine prices.

Even if you have the same BS you don't get the same mileage if your squishier because you are more likely to be dead before you get a second shot so space marines tend to get more mileage from thete guns and that's before you take salamanders or giulliman as optons. Scion to get better positioning but they already pay a premium for that.

U02dah4 wrote:
Even if you have the same BS you don't get the same mileage if your squishier because you are more likely to be dead before you get a second shot so space marines tend to get more mileage from thete guns and that's before you take salamanders or giulliman as optons. Scion to get better positioning but they already pay a premium for that.

A suicide squad is a suicide squad. How long do you honestly expect 5 man marine command squad to last anyways?

“A 1pt per scion increase would weaken them to average.“

Wait, isn't this be the plan? to only have average units so you can play everything?

On its own not long as most armies can concentrate fire but if taken in groups it will take 33% to 50% more shooting to take them down depending on chapter with greater mobility after its landed to reposition should it wish to relocate to another target in sub sequent turns.

16% more survival due to +1SV
16% more survival vs S3,S4, S6,S7 (I'm assuming S8+ weapons will target a vehicle and I can't remember the last time I was shot by an S1 or S2 weapon)
16% more survival if Iron hands chapter tactic


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Covenant wrote:
“A 1pt per scion increase would weaken them to average.“

Wait, isn't this be the plan? to only have average units so you can play everything?

That's a terrible plan and not going to happen because units power is effected by terrain, the size of the battlefield and what their shooting at. Scions are strong in the meta but pretty weak vs infantry builds.

Simple test try a 1k game of
Cpt
Apothecary
3 salamanders lascanon tacs
6 lascannon devastator squads with a single Las cannon and cherub
All Sgt but one with storm bolters

Or a wall of kroot with ethereal hq and kroothound/vespid in support with 1 shaper.

Or a pure guard infantry list

Then see how well the scion list does

It also seems only focused on weakening stronger units not fixing weak ones I mean where is the complaint from marine players that they are not being devestated by the awesome power of the deathstrike missile which let's face it has the tiny drawback that 50% of games it won't fire

U02dah4 wrote:

On what planet would they be as playable as veterans.

Veteran squad 3 plasmas and boltgun 82pts same as Scions in that scenario so veterans double their wounds and exchange 3 hot shots for 6 lasguns and an extra plasma and regiment bonuses (plus additional options such as an HWT and heavy flamer in exhange for not having deep strike).

As long as the Prime is required they would be a bad choice, yes. If not the SCS without DS would costs 56 pts, so points wise it would be 6 Scions with 6 plasma to 10 vets with 3 plasma.
On foot neither unit would get to their goal.

U02dah4 wrote:

Meanwhile Scion squad 2 plasmas at -2 pts 52pts. Would be terrible as while they can damage output they would be dead before they ever got in range. They often struggle to make pt's back with prime targeting

That´s always the problem of Scions and 10 T3 models with 5+ also don´t do better.

U02dah4 wrote:

Finnally rough riders with duel Plasmas comes in at 60pts so what would you be gaining for an extra 22.

What 22? SCS still would cost 56 pts, 4 with 4 plasma.

U02dah4 wrote:

Also I don't see all that many veterans.

Agreed.

U02dah4 wrote:

Tell you what why don't we fix the guard codex by adding a 0 on the end of all pts cost and balance space marines by making them 5pts per modal because because your aim seems to be to destroy the unit rather than balance

You missed what i wanted to say.
I wanted to say that the problem some see is not the costs of the plasma but the ability to deep strike. With my post i wanted to hear what they would change. I just can´t hear their plasma whining anymore.
I am fine with them as they are, especially after the Prime tax and see no need to change anything about them.
Cheap deep stiking is part of the 8th. Furthermore most armies have cheap screening units so can neuter their effect.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:


What amount would you propose?

0 seems a more appropropiate number for balance between armies. A 1pt per scion increase would weaken them to average

Good to hear.

U02dah4 wrote:
The denial of conscripts to scion players and an upgrade of melta/ grade launchers would be a better fix

I am quite sure no codex will ever have a rule that says if you pick unit x you can´t pick unit y.
What upgrades to the melta/grenade launcher would that be?

Spoletta wrote:
No, i would honestly like to have the special weapons costs for scions increased to space marines levels or close to it. After all they get the same mileage out of those special weapons that SM get, why would they pay less for them?

And if 4 scions with melta drop at your land raider, you want to increase the costs of meltas?
It has been said a couple of times, scion are one shot weapons and nowhere near the durability of any space marine.

Firefox1 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

On what planet would they be as playable as veterans.

Veteran squad 3 plasmas and boltgun 82pts same as Scions in that scenario so veterans double their wounds and exchange 3 hot shots for 6 lasguns and an extra plasma and regiment bonuses (plus additional options such as an HWT and heavy flamer in exhange for not having deep strike).

As long as the Prime is required they would be a bad choice, yes. If not the SCS without DS would costs 56 pts, so points wise it would be 6 Scions with 6 plasma to 10 vets with 3 plasma.
On foot neither unit would get to their goal.

U02dah4 wrote:

Meanwhile Scion squad 2 plasmas at -2 pts 52pts. Would be terrible as while they can damage output they would be dead before they ever got in range. They often struggle to make pt's back with prime targeting

That´s always the problem of Scions and 10 T3 models with 5+ also don´t do better.

U02dah4 wrote:

Finnally rough riders with duel Plasmas comes in at 60pts so what would you be gaining for an extra 22.

What 22? SCS still would cost 56 pts, 4 with 4 plasma.

U02dah4 wrote:

Also I don't see all that many veterans.

Agreed.

U02dah4 wrote:

Tell you what why don't we fix the guard codex by adding a 0 on the end of all pts cost and balance space marines by making them 5pts per modal because because your aim seems to be to destroy the unit rather than balance

You missed what i wanted to say.
I wanted to say that the problem some see is not the costs of the plasma but the ability to deep strike. With my post i wanted to hear what they would change. I just can´t hear their plasma whining anymore.
I am fine with them as they are, especially after the Prime tax and see no need to change anything about them.
Cheap deep stiking is part of the 8th. Furthermore most armies have cheap screening units so can neuter their effect.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

Firefox1 wrote:


What amount would you propose?

0 seems a more appropropiate number for balance between armies. A 1pt per scion increase would weaken them to average

Good to hear.

U02dah4 wrote:
The denial of conscripts to scion players and an upgrade of melta/ grade launchers would be a better fix

I am quite sure no codex will ever have a rule that says if you pick unit x you can´t pick unit y.
What upgrades to the melta/grenade launcher would that be?

Spoletta wrote:
No, i would honestly like to have the special weapons costs for scions increased to space marines levels or close to it. After all they get the same mileage out of those special weapons that SM get, why would they pay less for them?

And if 4 scions with melta drop at your land raider, you want to increase the costs of meltas?
It has been said a couple of times, scion are one shot weapons.

You have different numbers because I compared scion squads not scion command squads because the previous had not talked about command squads so 22 is a normal scion squad compared to a rough rider squad.

Also pretty much every codex has the rule if you pick unit X you can't pick unit Y or else TauDar. Also there are examples of certain chapters having access to certain units models that other chapters don't.
In fact the lost librarius rule in codex SM says that adeptus astartes psykers cannot be drawn from the black temples faction so precedent so just reword the rule to conscripts and tempests scions


Melta doesn't do enough damage to justify it's cost and range in any codex so it needs a Damage buff.
It would be great for grenade launcher to have attacks proportionate to the size of the squad your shooting to give it a neiche

Firefox1 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
No, i would honestly like to have the special weapons costs for scions increased to space marines levels or close to it. After all they get the same mileage out of those special weapons that SM get, why would they pay less for them?

And if 4 scions with melta drop at your land raider, you want to increase the costs of meltas?
It has been said a couple of times, scion are one shot weapons and nowhere near the durability of any space marine.

In fact i said to increase the cost of special weapons, not the cost of plasma. Scions paying AM costs for weapons is simply not right.

U02dah4 wrote:
Also pretty much every codex has the rule if you pick unit X you can't pick unit Y or else TauDar

TauDar sound like previous edition. In pure armies i don´t see that "problem", can you give an example?

U02dah4 wrote:

It would be great for grenade launcher to have attacks proportionate to the size of the squad your shooting to give it a neiche

A problem with previous template-weapons, something i wrote in another Guard topic.
And i don´t seem to be the only one, someone at Bols wrote also about that.
www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-explosive-weapons-we-have-a-problem.html

Btw. is there also a thread about tau commanders with 4 plasma rifles, which can do quite the same as SCS+Prime, or is it just Guard-hate, just asking?

RogueApiary wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated. I run them all day every day.

You can run them barebones for 40 points
Better BS than conscripts
Can have Special/heavy weapons
Sarge can have a power weapon
They fit in transports
Give you more tactical flexibility than conscripts

As a bonus, they make it easy to fill out Brigades and Battalions for cheap.

I'm not trying to imply that they are better than conscripts, but when you are playing a friendly game they will get you through. I don't want to spend forever moving 50-man blobs anyhow. Only in a super-competitive game will I consider that.

I agree that infantry squads are useful and i currently run them as my second line. But sarge taking a power sword is not much of a selling point. Two str 3 attacks on ws4+ is not a platform worth 4 times the cost of a boltgun so you can maybe use it once before dying horribly to whatever charged you or the super pissed off friends of the one guy you killed on the charge.

I said power weapon, not power sword.
With a nearby Straken & priest, attacks you will get 4 attacks each fight phase plus 3 in the shooting phase with "fix bayonets". If you are smart about it, any power weapon can pay dividends. 4 points won't break the bank anyhow.

Firefox1 wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Also pretty much every codex has the rule if you pick unit X you can't pick unit Y or else TauDar

TauDar sound like previous edition. In pure armies i don´t see that "problem", can you give an example?

U02dah4 wrote:

It would be great for grenade launcher to have attacks proportionate to the size of the squad your shooting to give it a neiche

A problem with previous template-weapons, something i wrote in another Guard topic.
And i don´t seem to be the only one, someone at Bols wrote also about that.
www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-explosive-weapons-we-have-a-problem.html

Btw. is there also a thread about tau commanders with 4 plasma rifles, which can do quite the same as SCS+Prime, or is it just Guard-hate, just asking?

Codex SM lost librarius rule adeptus astartes psyckers may not be drawn from the black templars chapter


Templates were the best answer to hoards half reason people struggle with conscripts is there areally almost no equivalents